Anti-Masonry's Entitlement Position

reply to post by guanyu

Well, luckily your wants don't override my rights.

I never stated I was a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment, certainly not as it is interpreted by yourselves, in regards to protecting secret societies.

What part of:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You also have to see that we are protected by the 4th Amendment.

I have a problem with Freemasonry because it is an avenue for nepotism.

Nepotism is not something exclusive to Freemasonry nor is it going to happen more in Freemasonry than anywhere else. Nepotism will occur between any persons with a relationship. I've never received anything not earned from Freemasonry. In fact, I have got out receiving some speeding tickets, but not because of my Masonic affiliation, but because of my family name (I come from a long line of cops).

It has been and remains capable of being a detriment to the American cause that every man is equal and deserves equal opportunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Even though the Founding of America was done in secret with many (not all) of them being Masons.

Secrecy breeds trust when used properly.

I don't mean to be curt, or offensive, but I find the entire thing reprehensible and an affront to all decent sensibilities of what is right and good about conduct between men.

So you're incapable of keeping your word? Or keeping secrets?

It is a fact, as uncomfortable of a fact as it is, that Freemasonry is a Bronze Age power structure.

How is our structure from the Bronze Age? Could you elaborate?

With your line of thinking any group could be said to have a Bronze Age structure. Honestly, you're trying to simplify an organization that is not as simple as you try to say it is. Our leadership structure is democratic in nature and our governing system is very modern.

By adhering strictly to any historic doctrine, the natural development of human collective consciousness is stunted.

What exactly is stunted about the Masons?

It is clinging to past concepts, regardless of any pretense of progressiveness. It is inimical to reform and self-criticism.

Well, why would anyone give up a concept if it works and is still applicable?

I know that you don't want to be told over and over again by someone that, in his opinion, you are part of something in its very nature sinister, and that I think your organization should be abolished. Certainly you've probably never done anything wrong there and are decent people. It just doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.

Translation: You guys or your group haven't done anything wrong, but I think you should be abolished anyways.

Originally posted by guanyu
I never stated I was a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment.

Uh, yeah, you did:

Originally posted by guanyu
However, I will express my opinion and as a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment, I ask you to respect that.

Kind of hard to 'misunderstand your grammar' when it is really, really clear. Maybe you should have said 'as a stauch defender of the 1st Amendment when it does not run counter to my opinions'.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by guanyu
I never stated I was a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment.

Uh, yeah, you did:

Originally posted by guanyu
However, I will express my opinion and as a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment, I ask you to respect that.

Alright, so I'm going to have to hold your hand on this one because you have absolutely no desire to attempt to understand me?

Fine.

As a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment is a prepositional phrase where YOU is the object of the propositional phrase. I ask YOU to respect that, AS a staunch defender of the 1st amendment. They had previously indicated they were a staunch defender of the 1st amendment, I was holding them to it. Got it?

The person I was addressing is the object, not myself. Why would I ask you respect something because of a quality about myself? It isn't even logical. This has all been horribly tedious.

I see my request that you seriously meditate on what I had to say has fallen on deaf ears. I think I'll respectfully bow out at this point.

Originally posted by guanyu
As a staunch defender of the 1st Amendment is a prepositional phrase where YOU is the object of the propositional phrase. I ask YOU to respect that, AS a staunch defender of the 1st amendment. They had previously indicated they were a staunch defender of the 1st amendment, I was holding them to it. Got it?

The only thing I get is that you may be right, your grammar is bad as that is not how to convey what you just expressed in the paragraph you posted above.

Fine, you are not a defender of the 1st Amendment (as you have made clear), nor even an advocate for such. You wish to impose your narrow ideology upon others based on presuppositions

I see my request that you seriously meditate on what I had to say has fallen on deaf ears. I think I'll respectfully bow out at this point.

Meditate on what? The irrelevant Puro Society of West Africa? Or that you think Masonry is a Bronze Age heirarchy when everyone living in the Bronze Age did not participate in a direct democracy which is in fact what Masonry happens to be?

Let me give you something to meditate on. Your personal opinion is inconsequential in regards my freedom to freely associate with who I want, when I want, where I want and how often I want as outlined by the Constitution of the United States of America.

When you wrap your brain around that maybe we can have a big person conversation.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

You've illustrated your ignorance about what I have said time and time again.

You continue to attack me as a person. You've addressed what I've said. The arguments on both sides have been laid out. Leave me out of it. Grow up.

I have nothing more to say to you.

Originally posted by guanyu
You've illustrated your ignorance about what I have said time and time again.

The only things that you have said are you detest Masonry and are not a defender of the 1st Amendment.

You continue to attack me as a person. You've addressed what I've said. The arguments on both sides have been laid out.

Your 'arguement' such as it is, is based soley on your personal opinion. You have been countered on every point by facts and evidence.

I have nothing more to say to you.

You said that already. Nobody makes you post in my thread except you.

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public"

Adam Smith

reply to post by guanyu

So you want us to respect your opinion and uphold your 1st Amendment rights, but in the same turn you want to step on our rights?

reply to post by KSigMason


No Ksig, Narrowgate, I mean guanyu, doesn't believe anyone should have the right to assemble. Therefore, no church, no masonry, no Lions club, nothing. Eliminate the first amendment and let the government regulate when and where we can assemble. Sounds like a great idea if you like totalitarian regimes.

Originally posted by guanyu
reply to post by nancyliedersdeaddog

 

Obviously, it goes without saying that I support the 1st Amendment, but we differ on our interpretations

This is not a "difference of interpretation". The text of the First Amendment clearly and unambiguously codifies the right to assembly; if you don't support that, you don't support the First Amendment.

I have a problem with Freemasonry (and similar initiatory orders and secret societies) because it is an avenue for nepotism.

So is any group, ever. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It has been and remains capable of being a detriment to the American cause that every man is equal and deserves equal opportunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

On the contrary, it is one of the inspirations for this ideal.

no one can deny that Freemasonry is a hierarchy

Freemasonry is a decentralized network of state governing bodies. For a hierarchy to exist, a central authority would have to.

This Bronze Age hierarchy can still be seen as a full social force in West Africa in the Poro society. Do you believe with sincerity that the Poro is a benefit to a West African's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?

No, but Freemasonry doesn't have near that kind of influence.

Lao Zi's premise that ritual stagnates consciousness

I looked long and hard, and I can't find a single Taoist scholar that agrees with this interpretation of Laozi. It's worth noting that Taoism has a rich and deep ritual culture of its own; a whole lot of Taoists would be very surprised to know they've been doing it wrong for 10,000 years.

By adhering strictly to any historic doctrine, the natural development of human collective consciousness is stunted. It reverts consciousness to a primitive state, of older and lower conscious development, as demanded by the ritual.

Statements like these make it clear your unfamiliarity with Masonic ritual. From the Fellowcraft degree:

The study of the liberal arts, that valuable branch of education, which tends so effectually to polish and adorn the mind, is earnestly recommended to your consideration...

It is clinging to past concepts, regardless of any pretense of progressiveness. It is inimical to reform and self-criticism.

From the Entered Apprentice degree:

We, as Free and Accepted Masons, are taught to make use of it for the more noble and glorious purpose of divesting our minds and consciences of all the vices and superfluities of life, thereby fitting us, as living stones, for that spiritual building, that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

I know that you don't want to be told over and over again by someone that, in his opinion, you are part of something in its very nature sinister, and that I think your organization should be abolished.

I imagine it's something like being told that the subject about which you've just pontificated at length is, upon further reflection, something you know very little about.

I felt compelled to interject if only because I do not see these anti-Mason criticisms as entitled, as was implicit by the thread title.

You misunderstood the thread title. He calls "entitled" the idea that every answer should be laid at the feet of the inquiring paranoiac, including private information.

reply to post by irishpackerfan68


....and thousands more testify to worshipping satan and the masons are on dual membership with wicca witchcraft. You might be able to manipulate people into believing your an organzation does do good through charity and i cant agrue that you dont. But theres a reason why you people need a "closed door policy" for the inhumanities that i will pharse again THOUSANDS of people have testified to.................................................................................................................................................... ................ Thousands of people have been murdered over the testimony of thousands of liars. I am a former member of an eclectic wiccan coven. Tax exempted in the State of Fl. and La. Neither I nor my HPS or HP were mason or OES. Even though we came from Free Masonic Families. Ive never met a wiccan that would consider harming anyone for any reason other than self defense. but others are out there that will harm or manipulate for coin or just because they choose too. But I have only heard they exist I have never met one. And they do not represent the whole of Wiccan/Pagan Covens. I have only met two masons out of several hundred in my lifetime that went out of the way to screw me over. One I suspect was 3rd the other admitted to being 3rd and felon as well. Being he was 62yo and a 3rd I suspect his conduct held him there.And thats it. All others are cheerful and in some instances went out of their way to help me out. They did not know my father was a Shriner either. On the other hand Christians have attacked me since I can remember. First in grade school because my father is a Shriner. Thats not a good thing in christian schools apparently. But they sure accepted that Shriners cash for tuition and other school charity drives. And it only gets worse from there. Was actually brought into a state court for worshipping satan by a bunch of lying christians. Case dismissed. Not because father is a Shriner. Because its not illegal to be a satanist (not that I was). Even in Alabama. Might ad here just for emphasis The christian d.a. that attempted to prosecute me for being a satanist a few years later was arrested and discharged from his office for a dui conviction. Been married 4 times all christians and poor liars. Not one did I hide my religious identity from. And not a one gave me any static about it until the breakup. And oh boy did the story telling begin. At 40 I am wondering if my wise and good father was simply instilling a very important lesson in me. Christians as a WHOLE love to judge and what they dont know they make up. Most Pagan and Wiccan circles do not even believe in the christian myths. Which is why they laugh at christians that call them satanist.To a celtic witch there is no such thing as Satan. Voodoo uses christianity as a form of concealment of their religion. Not from choice or to slander christianity but to keep from being destroyed by christians. The KJ1611 NT Mistakenly (or not) calls pharmacology witchcraft. LIE. And from my own take on satanism have you ever read the bible or do you just thump it at folks who you deem in need of correction. Who in Their right mind would worship a god that kills babies women children to make a point instead of simply making an appearance. Who would drink the blood and cannibalse the flesh of their deity. Even if symbolic. Who would give there soul to a god that demands worship and is basically a form of spiritual rape. Love me or I will hurt you. Name one person Satan hurt. Not one soul. Job and friends dont count because that was at the demand of the hebrew god. The mentality of the christian mind is such. They need the threat of everlasting torture (hell) to keep them in line. I do good because I choose too. My dad raised me to be good. He built a good man. My way says simply this to humanity even christians. Harm None. May you never thirst, May you never hunger.

tl; dr

Got names? Dates? Lodges? You know.......verifiable facts?

TIA
Fitz