Christians... Let me ask?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

No my friend...

I most definately believe in Jesus... His words are spiritual gold... But many things he said i see very differently then those of the Christian world.

Apparently i would be considered a heretic if i claimed that title...

And since i disagree with organized religion in general... Why not kill two birds with one stone?

I need no label for my beliefs... They are what they are... And they come from a mash of a few different sources which includes personal experiences

But mainly the words of Jesus

edit on 14-2-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Is it the Jesus of the Bible, the one who claimed to be God in the flesh?

He said He is the only way to the Father... there is no other way but through Him...

And Gnosticism, which is a mixture of mysticism, Eastern speculations, and Jewish legalism teach otherwise, and will not save a person from the damnation of hell.

We are saved by grace from God through faith in His Son Jesus.

And to the various forms of new ageism, which is nothing new at all, but revived ancient mystery religions; Christ called them the depths of Satan, satanical delusions and devices, and diabolical mysteries. There is a mystery of iniquity, as well as the great mystery of godliness. It is a dangerous thing to despise the mystery of God, and it is as dangerous to receive the mysteries of Satan.

reply to post by netgamer7k

Is it the Jesus of the Bible, the one who claimed to be God in the flesh?

No...

I believe in the actual Jesus... the one that did not claim to be God in the flesh.

Don't bother posting John 1 either... Jesus didn't say I am God in the flesh

And Gnosticism, which is a mixture of mysticism, Eastern speculations, and Jewish legalism teach otherwise, and will not save a person from the damnation of hell.

Hell is a myth used as a conversion tactic....

We are saved by grace from God through faith in His Son Jesus.

So says your saviour... Paulis Christ

It is a dangerous thing to despise the mystery of God, and it is as dangerous to receive the mysteries of Satan.

While I agree with you that Satanism is Dangerous you likely have no idea what Satanism is about... this much is obvious from your reply.

Though I would actually say believing the entire bible is the "word of God" is just as dangerous...

And listening to Paul is up there on the danger scale as well...

Paul offers a free ticket to sin... with no concequence. Likely because he was guilty of much sin, including the murder of many Christians and needed a scapegoat for his own wrong doings...

And he found one in the doctrine of Grace

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by netgamer7k

 

And listening to Paul is up there on the danger scale as well...

Paul offers a free ticket to sin... with no concequence. Likely because he was guilty of much sin, including the murder of many Christians and needed a scapegoat for his own wrong doings...

And he found one in the doctrine of Grace

This really makes me sad, man, God can only give a sinner mercy. And when that sinner accepts it, a scoffer denies it, looking over to the "old man" which has been put off for the "new man".

Did you not know that in Christ's journeys he found man in a cave. This man's name at the time was Felix of Endor, and upon hearing Jesus words he broke down, confessed to murdering his wife, was forgiven and became a disciple. Jesus gave him the new name of John of Endor and he thus excelled to become one of the most perfected of disciples.

This made Judas of Kerioth jeolous, and Judas went to the scribes and pharisees and told them of this man and a greek slave woman, who escaped to come to Jesus.

Jesus was forced to send them both away to a place called Antioch at the time, where they set up a school for heathens and for women.

They were sent away due to the incredulity and jealousy of man, considering his own judgement correct rather than that of God.

But if I may I will tell you some of Jesus words which you may not know. I am reciting them through the best of my knowledge but they come directly through the doctrine of the Master. It is the parable of the sick man.

There was once a man who committed a crime and got leprosy. He was condemned by doctors and forced to live apart from people. The man's family were sad and so were the members of his village, as they pitied him and his family members.

Praying and living in penitence and isolation the man became cured by the Grace of God. He went back to town and became purified.

Being grateful to God he began to teach and preach in his town of God's mercy and what He had done for him.
The people of the town were less than cheerful, in fact they were spiteful, asking him "why should I take advice from a sinner". And thus the people of the town descended into sin, hatred, and jealousy.

I am sure you know this one "31. Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them.""

For those who have no mercy, they will see none.

It is appalling to see that someone who claims to know who Jesus truly is does not know Him as the Mercy of God.

reply to post by Akragon


May I also remind you, that Jesus preached words of mercy and forgiveness to the galley slaves, showing that he came also for criminals, murderers, and even forgave a thief crucified beside Him.

He would have also forgiven Judas, had he wanted to be forgiven.

reply to post by backcase


Thank you for your reply... a star for you!

Unfortunately your tale is nothing more then a story... And over the past 2000 years you might notice there are many many stories attributed to Jesus... but hardly any of them have any credibility.

It is appalling to see that someone who claims to know who Jesus truly is does not know Him as the Mercy of God.

Im not denying that... but as I've said to another member here... Pauls idea of redemption is a free ticket to sin... Meaning people are free to destroy and pillage as long as they eventually see the error of their ways and repent... there is no consequence.

I also believe in Karma as well... Even Jesus said you will account for every word you spoke in this life... that includes every action... Truly... Paul had some baggage to deal with when he passed

Im sorry you find it appalling that I point to Jesus for the word of God and deny the Pharisee...

Feel free to believe what you will my friend....

May I also remind you, that Jesus preached words of mercy and forgiveness to the galley slaves, showing that he came also for criminals, murderers, and even forgave a thief crucified beside Him.

He would have also forgiven Judas, had he wanted to be forgiven.

And let me remind you... Jesus could forgive anything he chose to... And Paul did not ever meet Jesus...

I don't believe his road to Damascus story for a second...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by backcase

 

And let me remind you... Jesus could forgive anything he chose to... And Paul did not ever meet Jesus...

I don't believe his road to Damascus story for a second...

edit on 15-2-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Well, Jesus' brothers trusted him and taught him, which they would have never done unless they were instructed to do so by God, because I am sure they had the same doubts which you do.

But God is good either way and would have forgiven him for his contrite heart and future sufferings which he would have to endure for Christ's sake.

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
reply to post by Akragon

 

To get the best answer, go read a bible.

yes, that will surely lay out everything in a logical, non contradicting manner.

Originally posted by backcase

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by backcase

 

And let me remind you... Jesus could forgive anything he chose to... And Paul did not ever meet Jesus...

I don't believe his road to Damascus story for a second...

edit on 15-2-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Well, Jesus' brothers trusted him and taught him, which they would have never done unless they were instructed to do so by God, because I am sure they had the same doubts which you do.

But God is good either way and would have forgiven him for his contrite heart and future sufferings which he would have to endure for Christ's sake.

As far as I remember the disciples didn't agree with his teachings until peter spoke up... the man who denied Jesus 3x... And peter was a coward according to what is written about him... So a simple threat from Paul would likely win him over...

Why trust in a man you doubt... who is a known liar, thief, and murderer... when you can trust in a man who leaves absolutely no doubt.

reply to post by Akragon


I trust only in God and what God shows me, teaches me, etc. and He has taught me that mercy will be given to me in proportion to the mercy given by me.

you keep a good account of sins, man, watch that God does not keep a strong account of yours. We are all sinners, and that is precisely why Christ gave Himself to us.

It is good that the apostles were not perfect, because it is through their imperfection that we see God's mercy. It is through our very own weakness that God gives us mercy.

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Also, with Peter, I also have denied Jesus. I too am a coward. But I have hope in the infinite mercy of God, and in the Sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.

reply to post by backcase




Very well said my friend...

you keep a good account of sins, man, watch that God does not keep a strong account of yours.

God does keep a "strong" account of what I do.... And he slams it in my face almost immediately...

Karma is a bitch... and its existence is very provable

Though he also guides me In my life... which I asked for long ago...

This is how I ended up in geriatric healthcare... And believe me... Never in a million years would I have guessed this would be my path...

reply to post by Akragon


I don't like the word "karma" as it has become a sort of deity.

the most holy Man to live suffered worse than all of them. How does "karma" explain that?

They say "why to bad things happen to good people". It is so that their faith may increase and may be inflamed with greater fervor and zeal.

"These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world."
-1 Peter 1:7

reply to post by luciddream


Not saying it will help, I'm saying go find out yourself instead of taking another persons view on it.

reply to post by backcase

I don't like the word "karma" as it has become a sort of deity.

No one worships Karma... IF anything people fear their own Karma...

the most holy Man to live suffered worse than all of them. How does "karma" explain that?

Theres two ways actually...

The first would imply that the infancy gospel of Thomas is true, in which case Jesus killed a man as a child...

The second would comply with the gospels, meaning Jesus was sinless and had no Karmic debt... which was why God was royally pissed when Jesus passed... so much so that the earth shook and split the temple in two

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

They say "why to bad things happen to good people". It is so that their faith may increase and may be inflamed with greater fervor and zeal.

Perhaps in some cases... But how does that explain why Good people die or are killed in horrible ways not befitting said persons life?

Unfortunately that tosses your idea right out the window... And Karma has an answer to what your idea can not answer...

reply to post by Akragon


Dearest Akragon,

I have not been on ATS as much lately and am sorry I did not respond to your post sooner as I always enjoy your comments and questions dear friend. I have not read through the thread because my answer is my own. You asked why Christians do not believe everyone can be saved. Well, I believe everyone CAN be saved; but, I don't believe everyone wants to be and I believe in free will.

A long time ago I posted a thread, I asked people if they could design the God they wanted, what would he be like. There are many religions that are all about eventually becoming God because many think they would like to be. When Jesus told the religious leaders of his day that they were little Gods, it was not a blessing or saying that they were all knowing, all powerful or omnipresent. He was not praising them. We are left with many questions; but, there are more explanations.

God was all that was and everything came from him. We, in my understanding, get a choice. We can choose to love all that is (Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself), pretty much love and forgive all or we can choose to love ourselves and put everyone else second. It is a personal choice.

Hell is not a place of fire and brimstone, it is separation from God. Separation from God makes you all that is in your universe and it is a choice. In the old Testament we are told that none can claim they did not know God because he can be seen in everything.

Now, let us consider Satan. Satan rebelled because God said one day the angels would be reporting to humans. He did not think we were deserving and it says that he accuses us day and night before God. I know you know your bible so I will not bother quoting scripture to you. The thread is hours old and I doubt it will continue much, so I am really only writing to you. Satan believes we will worship him and Revelations says that many will. We know what he offers, he offers us to be completely selfish and still accepted by him. It is a choice.

Let us consider the options, God could force himself upon us. He could come to each of us and talk to each of us; but, trust me, few could handle the guilt. If we believe the bible, and you asked Christians, then it is only because we repent (that requires that we accept that we are imperfect) that we can accept God's forgiveness.

Akragon, I would never "preach" to you and I love your question. I am just trying to give my answer and my understanding. I ignore most of the people I believe are just baiting or I stick it to them. I believe, while we are both capable of sarcasm, that you always ask sincere questions. Tough ones for traditionalists, to be sure; but, I am no traditionalist. I have a mind of my own and love being challenged so that I can be stronger in my answers. Thanks for asking the questions that all Christians should ask of themselves.

We are pure sentience. We are consciousness. There are those who believe they are all that exists, Solipsism. I put that for others and not for you, I am guessing you know the word. They choose to look the rest of us as if we figments of their imagination. This is the same garbage being sold today that we live a computer simulation. It is an attempt to lead us to selfishness, if others don't exist than I am all that matters. That is hell and it is a choice. If you believe in free will then you must accept that some can choose hell. I have three days off, have had three glasses of wine and I do hope I still managed to convey my point. Peace dear friend, please keep asking the tough ones. You might give me an idea for next sermon.

Originally posted by Akragon
Since this is Valentines day... I have a question for the Christians on our forum pertaining to love

Why do you have such a problem with the possibility that ALL souls will be saved from Death?

IF God is love, would he not want all his children to return to him?

And if this is the case... Why wouldn't you hold that same value?

Happy Valentines day all

He does want all of his children to return to him.

2 Peter 3:9(KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

We do hold this same value; we would love to see everybody make it to Heaven to live an eternity of peace and happiness.

You said that we have a such a problem with the possibility that ALL will be saved from death. I don't know where you got the assumption that we have a problem with that, because we would love nothing more than to know that every soul is saved.

But I can't stress it enough that you're misinterpreting the Bible if you think that God will allow sin to remain in the new Heaven and the new earth, however. All the conflict and pain and suffering in this world was brought about because of sin, and God is not going to allow that to happen again after Satan and everyone who has followed him are destroyed:

Nahum 1:9(KJV)
9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

The people who are subjected to sin in this life, yet overcome it by the power of the blood of Jesus, will make the perfect replacements for those angels who chose to follow Satan instead of God. We will have been tempted, subjected to trials and tribulations, yet we will still remain faithful to our Lord. All the angles who are still in Heaven are obviously always going to faithfully follow God, or else they would have fallen with Satan and the other 1/3 of the angels. The people who make it to Heaven, along with the angels who are there right now, will perfectly fill that void left by Satan and his angels when they were cast out of Heaven to earth.

Sadly, not everybody will make it to Heaven, but everybody COULD make it to Heaven, if they only accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and study the Word of God everyday and live the life He intends for us to live.

Christians want nothing more than for every other human being to be saved. There would be nothing greater than to know that we would all share the wonderful things God has in store for those who love Him. The sad reality of it is, when we try to share that message with people, we are instantly accused of cramming our beliefs down everybody's throats, and we are accused of not letting anybody think for themselves and all the other stuff that is said which could not be further from the truth. And no matter, because we will never stop sharing that message. Many have been put to death throughout history just for sharing the love of Jesus, and it will continue to happen until that Eastern sky splits.

So which one is it? Do you want to hear how we love everyone as we love ourselves, just as Jesus tells us to; and how we want to bring others to Christ so we can all be saved?

Or will you just ignore that message and for some strange reason instantly jump to the conclusion that we are against some people going to Heaven?

Originally posted by Akragon

Theres two ways actually...

The first would imply that the infancy gospel of Thomas is true, in which case Jesus killed a man as a child...

I do not think that that is true at all, because then Jesus sacrifice would have been of no avail, as He would not have been the spotless Lamb of the Passover

Also, even the gnostics left that part out, which I do not believe they would have done if it was the truth.

Originally posted by Akragon
The second would comply with the gospels, meaning Jesus was sinless and had no Karmic debt... which was why God was royally pissed when Jesus passed... so much so that the earth shook and split the temple in two

I do not think that that is the case either. Why would God be pissed that His only Son was obedient?

And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."- Mt 3:17


Perhaps in some cases... But how does that explain why Good people die or are killed in horrible ways not befitting said persons life?

Unfortunately that tosses your idea right out the window... And Karma has an answer to what your idea can not answer...




Good people all different ways which bad people may die, but I am NOT arguing FOR karma, and the two groups die in two completely different spiritual states.

Good people die brutally for many reasons which we know already, and do not understand.
I have always learned that death is the final expiation for the just to go to God. Sometimes it is a martyrdom and the death is divinely eloquent, but humanly gruesome.

But God does so for good reasons, as He does everything with perfection.

Look at Mother Theresa who struggled thought her life and did many great things. Her life was full of suffering of her self, her spirit, and the people around her, yet she continued in the way of Christ, knowing that her sacrifice would be added to His to redeem souls out of love for men.

And Stephen the Martyr, who is written of in the Acts, was one of the first fruits which is mentioned in other places in the NT. He was stoned and as he died, he saw the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the clouds, and then yielded up his spirit.

Martyrdom for a saint is to walk into Heaven and be given a robe of royal purple, of divine sacrifice, and to be like God's Son.

Jesus taught us though, that we should not look for answers in what is physical, to never judge according to our senses, but always see everything in a spiritual light which is given to us by His Love.


P.S.

I am not the best guy on a computer, so this post may look pretty fugged up, but try to understand it. thx

reply to post by backcase


yeah i screwed up, your words start after a gospel quote and end with your smiley face. That was supposed to be a quote box, but I am definitely not a tech guy

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by backcase

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by backcase

 

And let me remind you... Jesus could forgive anything he chose to... And Paul did not ever meet Jesus...

I don't believe his road to Damascus story for a second...

edit on 15-2-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Well, Jesus' brothers trusted him and taught him, which they would have never done unless they were instructed to do so by God, because I am sure they had the same doubts which you do.

But God is good either way and would have forgiven him for his contrite heart and future sufferings which he would have to endure for Christ's sake.

As far as I remember the disciples didn't agree with his teachings until peter spoke up... the man who denied Jesus 3x... And peter was a coward according to what is written about him... So a simple threat from Paul would likely win him over...

Why trust in a man you doubt... who is a known liar, thief, and murderer... when you can trust in a man who leaves absolutely no doubt.

edit on 15-2-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Which one of us are not sinners? Do we not lie, steal, and bear false witness as well. Paul was blind, but was shown the light of the Lord. He became a new creation in the Lord and was regenerated. He spread the gospel in the face of persecution, beatings, and imprisonment. He strived through prayer and repentance to grow spiritually, and not be "of the world'. How can we say we are better than Paul when we live our lives the way we do in these modern times?