Integrity

reply to post by Bluesma


The most excellent point yet made, in my opinion. It is not integrity, per se, but what informs it, and that might be the most perverted of concepts......but no less regarded as integrity by those who perceive those beliefs.....

reply to post by Bluesma
I


I sense here you are applying this directly to your interaction with the OP. I am not speaking to that in my above reply, but generally. In life, generally, to maintain our self respect, we should, I think, give what we get, and I don't mean that to apply here, in this discussion between the two of you.

If you still wish to call me dead wrong, fine. Somewhere along the line in this discussion, I think you warned of being judgemental and all that entails in ascertaining the motives of others. So I do not really appreciate you calling me just plan wrong, as you took my comments to her totally out of context. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and I think you took my comments there totally out of context, whatever she may have meant by them.

I know I preserve my integrity daily, my belief system, by remaining calm, resolute and respectful of others. That's allI I can say. If you still want to call me "dead wrong." so be it. I won't lose sleep over it, because I have not treated you so, but given your words the utmost respect they deserved for the sense they made.

This is my deal about integrity: It can be informed personally by belief in many different ways, some of them not so healthy. I do not expect not want a governing body informing me of what my integrity should be.....nor my morality, for I believe this is solely a control and manipulation mechanism, and I wish to be left alone, healthy, well centered, and make my own decisions, and exhibit and live my own integrity. Anything less, historically proven, can be extremely dangerous, to all of us. End of story. I do not view governance as an institution that should be doing this for the individual, either defining it, or requiring it of us via laws. They are far to hypocritical, and must be, in today's climate to achieve their positions of power.

That's all I have to say. Although, I do not appreciate, particularly, your labeling my comments out of context as dead wrong, for I think you took my words completely out of context in a broader sense. Would you want or expect someone to speak to you i n such a manner, when so far your words have illustrated a fair and balanced position, with all due respect to whomever disagreed with you. And I was never disagreeing with you. On the contrary, I was trying to support your position with the OP and where you were coming from, intellectually, and every one of your points was valid. So, I do not find your attitude particularly fair, and hope upon reflection, since you have espoused a sound viewpoint here, that you will rethink those words.

Integrity is a virture. And to my way of thinking, a very personal one, for good of evil, dependent upon the balance or lack thereof of the indivdual, as you evidenced in your last reply citing criminals, the sickest among humanity, totally believing what they were doing was right.

Whether that is a committment to a scewed belief or integrity I might question. Belief is a whole other thing. Ingtegrity is the fabric that defines the character of our personhood, as a quilt, that both exemplifies us as the end of a whole life lived, the quilt that makes up the sum of our WHOLE life and how we lived it......
This, I feel, has nothing to do with governance, enforced morality, or the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world......
Anyway, I did enjoy our intellectual exchange, though I feel you view this concept in a rather short sighted manner, and I certainly take exception to your judging my comment out of context when it didn't apply to you or your responses to the OP in any way whatsoever.
Cheers. For I would not judge you as you havr do judged me and warned in other responses about being judgemental., None of us usually are really dead wrong. We are just usually misundertood and misinterpreted.

Originally posted by tetra50



I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.


As well you should. Anyone who does not treat you the way you treat them, with common respect we all deserve, should be turned out, completely and entirlely. Because treating you that way , they only seek to belittle you and shut you up, render you pointless....

reply to post by Bluesma


Did you really think, Bluesma, that this comment was direcred entirely and specifically to you, anyway. I read the whole thread. Did you. The Op listened and from my point of view seriously considered and thought about everything you brought to the discussion, and I am not at all convinced that the "belittling" comment was directed at you. In fact, many times, she digressed and seemed to assimilate your point of view. So I'm a little confused by your response. I don't think she blocked you out, reading her responses to you, at all, but was quite receptive, if not always understanding your points

If I have somehow been caught between two women, and their opposing points of view, then I need to get off this forum, for it is beyond me completely, as I see it only as an exchange of intellectual ideas for our good, not for our egos. Sorry you saw me as wrong or offensive to you here. But whoever reaches whom, that should be the focal point, should it not. And none of us like to be belittled, nor to feel disrespected. If my comments made you feel this way in trying to further expound upon your points in a way the OP could understand, my apologies.

reply to post by tetra50


Oh, lol sorry. I meant you can cross my bridge anytime without toll. But send the "troll hunters" to me, I'll leap out from under my bridge and laugh them to death.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by tetra50



I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.


As well you should. Anyone who does not treat you the way you treat them, with common respect we all deserve, should be turned out, completely and entirlely. Because treating you that way , they only seek to belittle you and shut you up, render you pointless....

Okay, in this case you are wrong. Just plain wrong and mistaken!

From the beginning, I was confused and I was asking questions and ONLY desired to "get" what was being said. I was answered with some rude and snippy, sarcastic comments. I chose NOT to make a big deal out of those, I decided the woman was feeling defensive needlessly in the moment, but trusted that she would eventually calm down and see I have no ill intent, and even if disagreeing, it is not personal. I felt compassion.

I treated her with respect, and my intention was not to belittle her, or shut her up!
I did not react strongly to her sarcastic and insulting remarks (instead I just asked- "what was that comment all about, anyway?") precisely because
I choose not to place such a negative view on the nature of all mankind. I think people sometimes misunderstand intents and defend themselves without necessity, and it LOOKS like they are simply trying to shut you up, or belittle you, or insult you, or hurt you, or otherwise harm you. But it is usually not the case if you pay attention and hang in there, with faith in human beings.

And obviously, my quote above in response to her comments was directly related to you and your responses?
I have the sense we are all trying to prove we are the better human beings here. "on the nature of manking," as you so aptly state, I am most definitely lost in this game. Again, so sorry. I never for a moment imagined she was speaking directly to your comments to her.

reply to post by intrptr


Absolutely love your sense of humor. Thanks. Much needed at this moment. This site sometimes is so complicated to participate in discussions, I am thinking I should just shut up now. But anyhow, you gave me a much needed chuckle.

I treated her with respect, and my intention was not to belittle her, or shut her up! I did not react strongly to her sarcastic and insulting remarks (instead I just asked- "what was that comment all about, anyway?") precisely because I choose not to place such a negative view on the nature of all mankind. I think people sometimes misunderstand intents and defend themselves without necessity, and it LOOKS like they are simply trying to shut you up, or belittle you, or insult you, or hurt you, or otherwise harm you. But it is usually not the case if you pay attention and hang in there, with faith in human beings

reply to post by Bluesma


I went back and looked at the posts, again. I have done that more than once since this thread began. Like I said, you had an attitude toward the OP and felt it was hypocritical and disconnected. You asked me Really?! Like I needed to repeat my text and or position again. To jump in and only speak on behalf of what you don't get, not trying to understand the OP was seen as negative by me. Through text, it can be very confusing. Insulting remarks have not been thrown your way. If you felt as though they were insulting then, I understand. I simply mirrored your "tone". I do that as a mom and with my relationships to see if what I am given is something wanted back in return. This way I know how to relate better with another personality. I hung in there and finally saw and understand your pov. It would be nice, if you did the same because you still do not understand the OP or my stance in its regard. If you do, I really don't see it, and its ok. Its tiresome.

I ended up seeing your pov, though fear is not something I hold onto and push away when its of no use. Here in this context, integrity is seen by me as something positive and with a collective having such per each individual it is something I see as important, however you will argue why its not good. SO be it.

I was not trying to change your mind or pov, I was trying to understand it. I do now. I do not agree with it, but see where you are coming from and I believe it to be fear based.

Yes, the US calls it "freedoms", but its not. Yes, people may call integrity something it isn't either. I can't change that. Integrity is basically doing what you say you are going to do. Its basic 101 honesty, yet people complicate it to be a system of morals and values. When the word is taken into a deeper meaning, it does and can become such a system.

reply to post by tetra50


I'm sorry you got caught in the cross hairs as I know you were trying to help and show me her/his pov.

Your post was indeed taken out of context just like the OP.

I digress.

reply to post by tetra50


I am just trying to prove the positive of having integrity/honesty and how it can make the world a better place if we all focused on fixing our inner selves where we sit fit. Like I have shown in this thread, Manly Hall's philosophy is more than wise in my opinion, yet he has not even been a focus. The negative aspects Bluesma saw has been the focus and that was not my intent with this thread.

I spent too much time trying to understand the other pov and didn't stay focused on the positive.

I feel as though I let you down in that regard when you were only trying to help.

My busy lifestyle doesn't accommodate a thread sometimes and it shows in this case.

I apologize and hope you are in good spirits today.

"There is one right way and many wrong ways to do anything. There is only one entrance to the great temple of universal knowledge. He who attempts to go in by any other door, or to storm the citadel of truth, the same is a "thief and a robber." Those who dedicate themselves to the processes of discipline and self-improvement set down by the old masters, are preparing themselves to enter the house of wisdom by the proper gate." ~ Manly P. Hall

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My mind set when this thread began is still the same. This above is where my mind and heart lay to rest for the peace of mankind.

Does the system need to be created by a dictator who seeks to rob me of self? No. By each one of us it can be created. The intent of the thread was to allow people to think and see where the world has been and where it is going, via the collective.

A mature philosophy of life originates in a natural thoughtfulness. To live without thinking is to fail in the proper use of the powers and faculties with which we have been endowed. To think without applying our thoughts to the conduct of our affairs is to substitute mere intellectualism for intelligence. It is seldom possible to perfect a personal philosophy without study, through which we become familiar with the deepest and noblest convictions of mankind. We must also call upon daily experience by which we can convince ourselves of the reality and integrity of certain basic principles, ever-present and forever true. Beyond both study and experience are the internal faculties of the soul and these must bestow final certitude upon our convictions. If, therefore, we live simply and wisely, seeking first the improvement of our inner lives, reserving an open heart and mind, we shall be guided and directed according to our needs and understanding. Each person must discover his own philosophy of life, and it is not fair or right to impose our codes upon others. It is also our responsibility, however, to share one with another such experiences as may have common value. We desire, therefore, not to convert or convince, but to invite such a sharing with the sincere hope that some mutual good will be accomplished.

silver-wolves.com...

Don't be fooled by the title of this lecture... Its meaningful to this thread.

reply to post by tetra50


Tetra, your response was to this-

My blonde moment has surpassed me with your words. THANK YOU! I'm sure Bluesma will thank you too!
I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.

Text is also hard to understand and decipher the way someone is speaking to you. I am a person who expects to be spoken to the way I would speak to someone else, which is with respect and If I feel like Im not, I take it personal.

Unless I totally misunderstood what she said (and invite her to correct if so) she is saying here that at first, she had trouble understanding my point, because she was mentally blocking me out because she was feeling defensive.

So when you say back, yes, you should be defensive, because when you feel that way it is because the person is trying to shut you down, belittle you, etc. Then that is a motivation being attributed to ME here.

I think we DO have the right to say someone is wrong or right when they make claims about how we feel.
I can be mistaken, you can, anyone can.... and I don't know about you, but if I make a mistake and am wrong, I hope they will speak up and say so!

That is not moral judgement- I did not say you were bad, I said you wrong. I did not make any guess as to why you were wrong (I didn't think about it, but I just assumed it wasn't on purpose).

I felt it important that that not be left misunderstood.

But if I make claims here about your intents, motives, feelings, I give you free rein to correct me if need be! I think you have the right to do that! (as would anyone else)

Originally posted by MamaJ


I went back and looked at the posts, again. I have done that more than once since this thread began. Like I said, you had an attitude toward the OP and felt it was hypocritical and disconnected. You asked me Really?! Like I needed to repeat my text and or position again. To jump in and only speak on behalf of what you don't get, not trying to understand the OP was seen as negative by me.

Let's straighten something out- when you say "Really???" is that meant in a sarcastic way? Because every time you have used it in this thread, I thought that is what it is. Was I misreading that? Were you in fact serious, not being sarcastic?
The comment about the dictionary, and others, perhaps seemed to be condescending and sarcastic to me.

So I returned back a "really?" to you, but I still upon going back cannot find where I could have come off as seeming to insult you in my first post. You would have to point that out. I certainly didn't FEEL any negative feelings!



Now, from the beginning, I see that article you posted, and YOUR opinion posted, have almost nothing to do with one another.

I said so and said what I was seeing so you could point out exactly what it was I was misunderstanding.

But I wasn't. You misunderstood that article. It was not talking about personal integrity, as in a virtue a person has, in listening to their own inner conscience and acting in sync to it.

That article refers to cultural integrity- which means every body following one set of morals and values dictated to them. It means none of them listening to within to their own heart and to their own sense of value or ethic. It means the opposite of personal integrity.

I see now I should have trusted my perception and simply said that from the beginning, I was afraid you'd get upset if I just told you "Hey, that article you linked to is like the opposite of what you are saying! "

So in trying to avoid seeming rude, disrespectful, and making you feel defensive, it happened anyway. Sometimes we try and miss the mark. Sometimes there is just no way to avoid it, I guess.

reply to post by Bluesma


I think it is different perceptions, different views, and all three off us being a little on the defensive.

If we were all sitting at a round table having a discussion it would have been different, I do believe.

With text, its hard. SO be it.

I would like for us to get passed it.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by tetra50

 

I'm sorry you got caught in the cross hairs as I know you were trying to help and show me her/his pov.

Your post was indeed taken out of context just like the OP.

I digress.

Ofer #s sake!

I am having trouble reading through all of these, and got to this late.

LOOK at the whole statement, which names me (Bluesma) and explains that you were having trouble not blocking me at first... You were explaining to him why you had trouble understanding what I was saying, no???

That was not taken out of context!

And neither was the OP- YOUR FRIGGIN' LINK was misunderstood by you and you went on about one thing, while that link was saying the OPPOSITE! That is not taken out of context!


I give up, this is ridiculous. I went through every point by point detail, I have said it succintly, I have tried everything. In vain.

Whatever. Yeah, I'm out to get you, in fact about 90% of the people on the web are (unless they agree with you on everything, and give you lots of ego stroking compliments)! Good luck with that view.

Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by tetra50

 

Tetra, your response was to this-

My blonde moment has surpassed me with your words. THANK YOU! I'm sure Bluesma will thank you too!
I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.

Text is also hard to understand and decipher the way someone is speaking to you. I am a person who expects to be spoken to the way I would speak to someone else, which is with respect and If I feel like Im not, I take it personal.

Unless I totally misunderstood what she said (and invite her to correct if so) she is saying here that at first, she had trouble understanding my point, because she was mentally blocking me out because she was feeling defensive.

So when you say back, yes, you should be defensive, because when you feel that way it is because the person is trying to shut you down, belittle you, etc. Then that is a motivation being attributed to ME here.

I think we DO have the right to say someone is wrong or right when they make claims about how we feel.
I can be mistaken, you can, anyone can.... and I don't know about you, but if I make a mistake and am wrong, I hope they will speak up and say so!

That is not moral judgement- I did not say you were bad, I said you wrong. I did not make any guess as to why you were wrong (I didn't think about it, but I just assumed it wasn't on purpose).

I felt it important that that not be left misunderstood.

But if I make claims here about your intents, motives, feelings, I give you free rein to correct me if need be! I think you have the right to do that! (as would anyone else)

edit on 13-3-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Yes, Bluesma, you are right that this was "in toto" what I seemed to be responding to. However, this was what I was focusing on, and really disregarding the rest, and not fully comprehending, evidently, the discussion between the two of you:

I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess. (these are MamaJ's words--)

These are mine:

As well you should. Anyone who does not treat you the way you treat them, with common respect we all deserve, should be turned out, completely and entirlely. Because treating you that way , they only seek to belittle you and shut you up, render you pointless....and you are hardly that. You have a good mind, a good soul, in my estimation, and ask all the right questions, whatever viewpoint your start from---in other words, you are sincerely looking for answers. And this is rare, and very, valuable.

Yes, I think you got what I was trying to say, though I am no arbiter of truth, just one of us out here pondering, looking for the right answers like you......But you got, I think, what I meant to get across, which I feel so important and do not believe that true change or saving us can ever take place without this way of looking at it.

I hope to hear from BluesMa, as I feel she had some viewpoints I heartily resonanced with.

Can we remove the context for a moment, and just concentrate on those words of hers at the top, which I highlighted in my response to her, only meaning to address just that, and not anything personal about the interaction between the two of you.

Much of what you say about this I agree with: such as,

I think we DO have the right to say someone is wrong or right when they make claims about how we feel.
I can be mistaken, you can, anyone can.... and I don't know about you, but if I make a mistake and am wrong, I hope they will speak up and say so!

But then we get to here:

Unless I totally misunderstood what she said (and invite her to correct if so) she is saying here that at first, she had trouble understanding my point, because she was mentally blocking me out because she was feeling defensive.

So when you say back, yes, you should be defensive, because when you feel that way it is because the person is trying to shut you down, belittle you, etc. Then that is a motivation being attributed to ME here.

I in no way meant to reaffirm her defensiveness, or to agree that anyone was trying to shut her down or belittle her. This is what I said: As well you should. Anyone who does not treat you the way you treat them, with common respect we all deserve, should be turned out, completely and entirlely.

This isn't meant to be directed, at least by me, towards you, in particular. It is only a reaffirmation that as human beings expressing ourselves, and feeling not appreciated (not defensive, but not appreciated or further, not respected), it might be the healthiest

healthiest of responses, to move on, rather than to continue to engage in an unhealthy dialogue, something we see a lot of here on ATS of one up manship, ad hominem arguments, I am smarter or know more or are better informed than you--take your pick. It doesn't serve either party, nor the information getting disseminated to help someone, ostensibly.

This is ALL I meant, for I did not comprehend at the time the "defensiveness," nor fundamental disagreement between the two of you. Had I paid more attention, perhaps I would have been much more careful with what I wrote, and I apologize for that. In truth, I hoped to bridge the gap between the two of you, for I much respected your viewpoint, and pretty much agreed with it, and felt you made some extremely important, salient points, points which warn where this kind of thinking can lead---and that place will not be a place, I think, any of us will have the freedom to be individuals or experience any kind of freedom thereof.

I think, at least, through U2U, you and I made our peace. And I appreciate what you have written here. I hope you further understand my response to her, and that perhaps, it was totally out of context pertaining to defensive reactions regarding the specific OP.

Regards,
Tetra

reply to post by Bluesma


Hey, you can be out to get me. I'd love to join you in France so we could "duke" it out intellectually, face to face.
Just a lame attempt at humor.

reply to post by Bluesma


MY LINK was not misunderstood. YOU were misunderstood. I was talking about YOUR attitude. I cannot seem to get past it to even TRY to understand what you are saying.

You said your opinion. That's all it is. I get your opinion now and understand your pov. I do, but I STILL do not agree with it.

Get back on topic please. This thread is about "Integrity" and the way cultures around the world are lacking and what can be done, like the link I posted which offers a way to solve this problem.

I know what your opinion is and you know mine. Would you like to talk about the others links and videos I have posted about "Integrity" ?