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Integrity

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posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 08:23 AM
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reply to post by tetra50
 


Part of the problem I percieve with achieving cultural integrity (a whole society that all follows exactly the same system of values and morals) is that although this can be achieved using early educational methods of indoctrination and conditioning, you still end up with adults that have a "potential" individuality within the struggles that be, to exist, to act. It remains subconscious and oppressed, but as we know now, it does have it's influence in acts eventually.

You get the subconscious motives, which are then rationalized and justified by the conscious (trained) mind to fit within that collective system. This is how religion can be used as an excuse for violence, for example. ...

We have the animus and the anima, and which ever one is shoved into the prison of de-valuation and subconsciousness, it will be rather sour and resentful. AND with certain types of manipulation, can be wooed and brought to action.

The desire for social unity has been oppressed in the US for a while and hitting a point of explosion.

The way I see it, soem arab countries are in a similar situation- except it is their desire for individual integrity that is exploding- they want out of the group think values.

This is a vulnerable time for both because they are "open". It will take lots of effort and focus for people not to fall into conmen and false promises.




posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 


Though I was quite "taken" and interested in MamaJ's discussion about integrity, even taking it on, as it is such an important concept, no matter how you look at it or what you bring to the discussion, I saw your points immediately and found them to be extremely valid--almost a warning, let's say, of where such can lead. Thank you for representing another side to it, while not at all denigrating the personal value of integrity.....

I don't see integrity as being informed so much by moral stances, but more a personal value of being congruent with one's stated beliefs and actions. I don't think it is up to a society or a government to inform its populus about integrity, and often this leads to war and oppression. Never forget that Nazi Germany's favorite mantra was "unity."
As such, there is no system, then, of checks and balances, to allow for each to be his/her own person--as long as this doesn't overtly hurt others.

However, I've seen lots of posts here about what I mentioned about congruity between belief and action. An aside, this last comment has nothing to do with your posts, but others who alluded to this. Circumstances, political climates, world issues are constantly evolving, in flux, changing. And this presents an obvious challenge to personal integrity, for we must be in flux to some degree to adjust to the changing world. What one may believe and act upon one day, may necessarily have to be different on another day, or a year from now, or so on. It is so easy to judge when you are observing someone else, in other words. But there are times when our beliefs must adjust, and therefore, our integrity and our actions.

Again, I have enjoyed reading your intelligent comments, and give kudos to MamaJ for even addressing what is a very complex issue.



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by tetra50
 


I think I understand now what Bluesma is/was saying. Thanks for helping me understand. I sometimes have blonde moments or my belief in something is so strong, it overshadows the obvious. Make any sense?

I understand and do agree.

edit on 11-3-2013 by MamaJ because: (no reason given)


And thank you, as well, for taking on such an important and complex subject. Integrity: such a small word, with huge implications, but vital in considering the future course, and even the past, of all humanity. I have enjoyed your thread a great deal, and BluesMa's comments, and appreciate both of you for making me think. I have my blonde moments, too, and sometimes just thinking can be so hard, one would rather just tune out......



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 


Here is what I don't understand, although I am trying to see this pov more so than what my pov is still holding onto.



Scrapping all value of the individual is no better for the whole than is scrapping all value for the whole is for the individual.


Balance. I keep saying balance but I am not sure if there could be such a thing all the time.

Being in a collective consensus does not mean to scrape an individuals value system unless it is of no value to the collective for the betterment of mankind. It can be made to believe its for the betterment, sure. No doubt. However intuition tells a lot of us what is right and what is wrong. Just like what is going on with the government of the US. It has gotten too big (the government) with an even bigger ego and so must fall as nature would be lying to us all if it didn't.




So we've tried one extreme, we've tried the other, we see they both get destructive and fail to work properly because the whole is made of individuals, individuals are part of a whole, get rid of either side they both suffer!


I believe in balance. An extreme on either side is no good. I believe man is for the most part, good in his nature so the consensus of what is good would be shared more so than the other.

If a leader strives in all he does to make decisions based on the betterment of mankind within and goes in the good order of all things with nature, then there is a good chance mankind will not suffer but will have peace, as much peace as he/she can bring because he is striving for not his self, but for others.




What about trying not to fall back into swinging the pendalum back to the other extreme, (which we already know about) and try to keep our balance, and not be swayed with emotional push buttons?


One can hope.




I just assumed you are a woman, because your avatar is a female.. are you perhaps a mother? If so, did it not become unavoidably clear to you when you became one that your individual presence, existence and input is essential to your family? That if you die, or even if you become passive and repressed and self destructive, the whole family would suffer? So it is with groups, with nations, and with the global collections of humans!


I am both. I am the leader in my household. I teach for the most part and strive to teach lessons each and every day that will make my kids strong, empathetic to others, busy, responsible, respectful, honest, and so much more and I would like to see a leader do the same with his house hold which includes many more people. It is not an easy job, nor would it be an easy solution.

The problem is there are no leaders in the world to choose from who uphold what I want in a leader. I did vote for Ron Paul, but could he even do the job? Could or would he have the human species as a whole in his mind when making decisions or would it only be in the best interest of himself or a few?




That said, my trying to work it out for myself here may have seemed as if I am trying to convince YOU to change your mind- that is an understandable misconception.


I took offense to your first post I believe If Im not mistaken. It seemed as though you had an "attitude" therefore I didn't pay much attention to the post because I cannot read words and truly comprehend them because I can't get past the "tude" and "tone". lol It's the way I have always been... I do try to change that about myself and because I am this way I have a hard time debating. Im an emotional and sensitive person, therefore it is still taking me all this time to understand your point.

I still don't fully comprehend the contradiction. Tetra helped me understand a little, and I appreciate it.

Im still having trouble comprehending the "lie" and "contradictions" because I am a firm believer that with so many people in the world, we have to have strong leadership who cannot cater to each person on this earth. It has to be for the collective, and or majority ruling. The US was once this way... however they started catering to the minority and its not working out for us.



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:25 PM
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This is how religion can be used as an excuse for violence, for example. ...
reply to post by Bluesma
 


When has it ever been an excuse? There is none that I am aware of. God told me to do it, still.... not an excuse. God would be contradicting himself. lol




you still end up with adults that have a "potential" individuality within the struggles that be, to exist, to act. It remains subconscious and oppressed, but as we know now, it does have it's influence in acts eventually.


We cannot escape from being individuals. We are many that make a whole and we cannot escape that either unless we kill one another and last one standing can be all they want to be and more. lol

We can have a collective consensus that is true to the collective. We cannot have it with greed, caring for the self only, dominating people, competing who has the nicer of things, or feeling we are better than everyone else.

Those feeling above are felt by all of us, but it does not make it "right". Are we not supposed to overcome our misgivings? Are those listed above not misgivings? I think they are. I try each day to suppress those feelings when they arise because they do not feel "right". If I went with those feelings all the time I would make others around me miserable and myself as well, especially if it became a pattern of every day living.

Here in the US we are "made" to think we have a vote... but we do not. They tell us two we can choose from or write someone in. What kind of crap is that, especially when both are obviously and evidently corrupt like the rest of the herd. Where is the demands from we the people for someone who can lead us into peace and not war. Lead us into a world with a bartering system whereas we are not slaves to paper. Paper? Why do we do it day in and day out? We are slaves to a corrupt system and the system has got to change for the betterment of our species and also for the system in which we live. The Universe needs us to sustain. Our bodies need us to sustain. We are needed by many, not just our self.



The way I see it, soem arab countries are in a similar situation- except it is their desire for individual integrity that is exploding- they want out of the group think value


The "group think value" is not the problem.... the values them self are. They want a more peaceful state with freedoms. Freedom of speech, freedom to practice any religion, freedom to be gay if they are, freedom to wear their hair down and wear make up if they so choose....... ya know freedom of expression.

Can a good collective system not have that?



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:33 PM
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And thank you, as well, for taking on such an important and complex subject. Integrity: such a small word, with huge implications, but vital in considering the future course, and even the past, of all humanity. I have enjoyed your thread a great deal, and BluesMa's comments, and appreciate both of you for making me think. I have my blonde moments, too, and sometimes just thinking can be so hard, one would rather just tune out......
reply to post by tetra50
 


Ha! Its making me think waaay more than I really want to or have time to. My kids play hockey and we have been sooooo busy lately. My computer has been messing up on ATS. Its a good thing though because it has allowed me to think and ponder more about this subject. It seems the more I try to understand the contradictions and lies, the more confused I get.

My brain either will not allow to see them, or they are not present. I have an intuition too.... Im a Pisces for gods sake. lol I feel truth in my bones and I see where change can be a good thing if the right changes are made.

We are obviously in need of major change in the world. Not just in my Country (US) but in the world as a whole. Each culture needs a "regroup". We need to come together and figure out a way the collective human race can benefit from a system that seeks not to slave or war with each other, but go in the good order of nature for ALL (Universe and ALL) whereas it is the main interest for the leaders who can handle the task at hand. Would they need to be super humans? I have no idea. lol



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
[more

There is so VERY MUCH here worthy of reply. And kudos, to you, once again, for engaging us in this all important discussion.




The problem is there are no leaders in the world to choose from who uphold what I want in a leader. I did vote for Ron Paul, but could he even do the job? Could or would he have the human species as a whole in his mind when making decisions or would it only be in the best interest of himself or a few?



Sadly, you are so on target here. There are no leaders who can uphold this ideal of integrity we value. Having recognized that, in their defense, in our system today, just to achieve the position of leader means inherently selling out, whatever they once truly stood for. They are elected by telling us what we want to hear, no more and no less. There is no integrity in this, because once in office, the OWE whatever contributors and corporations that contributed to their campaigns to help them achieve that goal. Let's not be disingenuous. We are a capatalistic society, and this is how it works, unfortunately. An oversimplification would be: I will scratch your back, and when you have the power, you will owe me and scratch mine. But this is how our current system works, despite the best efforts at campaign contribution reform. Which is Citizens United is an example of, frankly, we are screwed.




Scrapping all value of the individual is no better for the whole than is scrapping all value for the whole is for the individual.


Balance. I keep saying balance but I am not sure if there could be such a thing all the time.

Being in a collective consensus does not mean to scrape an individuals value system unless it is of no value to the collective for the betterment of mankind. It can be made to believe its for the betterment, sure. No doubt. However intuition tells a lot of us what is right and what is wrong. Just like what is going on with the government of the US. It has gotten too big (the government) with an even bigger ego and so must fall as nature would be lying to us all if it didn't.




Here, I believe is where we get into trouble with the whole idea and virtue of integrity.
I see this, wholly, as a personal attribute. Not something that should or does apply to a government or society.
We cannot control, no matter how we vote, protest, write our congressman, try to be involved in what the government does or does not do, in the respect of representing us----because, frankly, they long ago stopped representing us, no matter whay they said to us to be elected.

Integrity to me, is a wholly personal attribute. When we try to go further and extrapolate it to the "bigger picture," say, of what we expect from our representatives in government, the whole concept is lost. For it doesn't either belong, apply or should be represented there.

I am who i am, and hold certain values essential to my personhood, if you will. I don't expect that from any governing body, or even someone I meet on the street. Integrity informs me, and only me, and hopefully the children I raise, or people I have a personal affect upon, just by illustrating that for them in my actions. It is not for me to judge them, morally or otherwise: to say they have this thing called integrity and act upon it and with it in mind or not. It is wholly mine, and only mine. In this world today, this is all I can expect or hope for.

You are the change you want to see. It is all, personally, we can do. I do not want any part of juding others' morals , or even behavior, to some extent, for I know not their circumstances. And we live in times where truth is simply an obfuscation. In other words, it can be made to look any way TPTB wish it to appear. So it is not for me to judge. Not only that, but I don't want a government moralizing to me. Their behavior says to me they have not right to do this to the individual, and so much of what the do, the system they operate under totally disregards and disrespects the individual. They want us homogenized. We are easier to manipulate, slot, stereotype, and therefore, be judged accordingly by the public at large, which they wish to control, so that anyone going against the "grain," can easily be rendered crazy, criminal, or terroristic or even a traitor.

These, I feel, are the times we live in. And integrity is our own personal venue, to act upon in the smallest ways every day. There is no greater good these days, expecially via integity, a catch all word to emotinally manipulate us and get a desired response to shun those who do not toe the line. The greater good has come to mean, go along, toe the line, shut your mouth, do not dissent, or we will brand you with a lack of integrity.

We were supposed to be a nation that revered the individual, no matter his/her beliefs or political leanings. It has become,



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:44 PM
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a way, instead, of disenfranchising, branding and shunning those who don't agree and don't go along.


This government was founded on the principles of your ability to ilve your life as you saw fit, with your own defined integrity. The individual, today, INMHO, has been sacrificed for a 1984 Orwellian system, so easier to control us.

Just my thoughts. And thanks for the ability to express them.

In closing, do you really want a governing body defining what your morality, much less integrity should be? Is it worth sacrificing you as an individual and your beliefs, to go along with that, and pay the price when you do not?
Is that not the essence of the battle we face today?

Knowing what our government participates in, globally and personally, partying, congratulating themselves, overcoming countries for greed, for oil, for raw resources we can take control of, do you really consider them arbiters of morality and/or integrity,and should you? My larger point is, never rely upon any governing body, even a church, to define integerity for what it means to you personally. We should never sacrifice our personal ideals for any greater good, for that path only leads to selling us all out.

I'm sure you've flown before. The stewardess tells you at the beginning, should their be an emergency, to put your oxygen mask on before attempting to help the passenger next to you. For you cannot assist anyone else, if you first do not survive the cataclysm. Integrity personally, is much like this, for it informs who and what we stand for, what kind of people we are and whether we are worthy of the survival of the species, in general.

Thanks, MamaJ



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by tetra50
 


Whoa.... there is the double edged sword.

I'm running around the house yelling, "Honey I see the light"!!!!!!!!!


SO the Op states what I want to hear and see in the world, however it can manipulate and enslave?

Did I finally GET IT???



posted on Mar, 11 2013 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Oh, I don't know. I'm no superior intellect, not purveyor of "truth." But what you and BluesMa wrote had me thinking all day long, as this is a subject very close to my heart. Or, were you being fascetious and I'm too stupid to get it?

Still, thanks for the thought provoking thread, and your positive responses, and giving me the change to vent on something I feel so very important for these times.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by tetra50
 


Whoa.... there is the double edged sword.

I'm running around the house yelling, "Honey I see the light"!!!!!!!!!


SO the Op states what I want to hear and see in the world, however it can manipulate and enslave?

Did I finally GET IT???


And of course it can manipulate and enslave, if you have expectations of something that I believe, at least, is a very person mein......but I think you are having me on here, making a joke of what I wrote. No offense taken.
edit on 12-3-2013 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 12:04 AM
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Oh, and could you identify for me in what I wrote the specific "double edged sword," although I believe all intellectual discourse produces that sword, eventually, for that is the very nature of life, and having the wherewithall to make clear which side of the sword we intend to represent.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by tetra50
 


Not at all!!!!


I love what you wrote!!!!

I was all excited thinking I understand what I was missing. I knew I was missing something and you would think I would realize such, but I was looking out of rose colored glasses.

A cultural integrity could be very bad... like we see in the US.

I want to be the leader. My values. My way... its still pushing my views on another.

This is the reason there are many religions and beliefs because one person can never get rid of their personal integrity.

Please, just tell me I get it.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 12:14 AM
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I saw with what you wrote, THE double edge sword with "cultural integrity".


My blonde moment has surpassed me with your words. THANK YOU! I'm sure Bluesma will thank you too!


I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.

Text is also hard to understand and decipher the way someone is speaking to you. I am a person who expects to be spoken to the way I would speak to someone else, which is with respect and If I feel like Im not, I take it personal.

I won't listen to words anymore... just paying attention the whole time to the attitude. I know... I'm sensitive and sometimes it gets me in trouble.

You speak in such a way, I feel all comfy and cozy.

Now, Im wondering again.... did I get it? lol



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 12:42 AM
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new.myspace.com...
reply to post by MamaJ
 


Oh, this is the Poe link, not what I intended but glad I got it to you one way or another.

Now for what the quote i initially intended:




This is the reason there are many religions and beliefs because one person can never get rid of their personal integrity.



And thank the Lord, or whomever we can't, because it is the defining principal of who we are, in all our faults and incredible facets of being human. This is the essence, I think, of what makes us so very, very special, and like no other being in the universe, our specialness, that can never be denied, and as such, we should hold onto it by every means possible. The thing is the governing bodies you expect to provide integrity serve us nothing other than to rob of us it. So hold onto yours, raise your children with it, and this, I think is our purpose and a special one at that.

Of course you get it. More than most. And in that, we have both won something very special.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by MamaJ
I saw with what you wrote, THE double edge sword with "cultural integrity".


My blonde moment has surpassed me with your words. THANK YOU! I'm sure Bluesma will thank you too!


I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.


I won't listen to words anymore... just paying attention the whole time to the attitude. I know... I'm sensitive and sometimes it gets me in trouble.

You speak in such a way, I feel all comfy and cozy.

Now, Im wondering again.... did I get it? lol



I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.


As well you should. Anyone who does not treat you the way you treat them, with common respect we all deserve, should be turned out, completely and entirlely. Because treating you that way , they only seek to belittle you and shut you up, render you pointless....and you are hardly that. You have a good mind, a good soul, in my estimation, and ask all the right questions, whatever viewpoint your start from---in other words, you are sincerely looking for answers. And this is rare, and very, valuable.

Yes, I think you got what I was trying to say, though I am no arbiter of truth, just one of us out here pondering, looking for the right answers like you......But you got, I think, what I meant to get across, which I feel so important and do not believe that true change or saving us can ever take place without this way of looking at it.

I hope to hear from BluesMa, as I feel she had some viewpoints I heartily resonanced with.

Thanks again, just for being you, and letting me be me and express myself. Hope you listen to the Poe tune. There are many others I feel illustrate what we are discussing.... And I wonder, do I get it, after all....?

Much love, and so respecrt your investigation of integrity, as it is all we are, and are worth, and what may save us, in the end.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 01:00 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Of course you get it. From the inception of your opening OP, I think we have learned much from one enother.

having said that:



I want to be the leader. My values. My way... its still pushing my views on another.



Having gottent to know you from your OP, no, I don't think this is what you want at all. But you do want something better, more valid, more meaningful than what we have now. And I might add, I still think you may be having me on, a little, making jokes of what I am writing. However, I am not offended; any exchange, I think, is positive.
What I think you want is something better than what we have now, representing us as humanity as something valuable and worthy, and representing humanity as worthwhile......


Should we push our views on another? Even if we think we are right and hold the best answers.???


I'm sending you a song, that I think pertinent to our discussion, even if you are making fun of me, which I don't mind.. The artist is POE, the song Control, and another too. which I think are germaine to our discussion.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 02:55 AM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


Pass what, exactly, I am intrigued.....as a witch hunter or a troll? Or something undefined as yet?



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 03:38 AM
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Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by tetra50
 


Whoa.... there is the double edged sword.

I'm running around the house yelling, "Honey I see the light"!!!!!!!!!


SO the Op states what I want to hear and see in the world, however it can manipulate and enslave?

Did I finally GET IT???



That is, at least, my position.
That we must be careful. In the OP, the referal to a collective integrity is not the same as how it is used for an individual- it is used in the sense of "wholeness" , "completeness" or "without inconsistancies within".
It is conformism and group mind, no individual differences of thought within that group.

I personally think a bit of that is beneficial- a shared culture is what allows effective communication and exchange between peoples. But that book claimed that individuality would need to be completely rejected.That is an extremist view.

I am not sure, but I think our particular difficulty in comprehending each other might have been that you were thinking of integrity is terms of individual, and as a virtue?

Jeffry Dahmer claimed he had superior integrity- because he was carrying out what he truly believed in, according to his principles. His claim was a solid one. Hitler brought Germany into a state of integrity too.

Integrity can also become a destructive thing if taken too far in either direction.



posted on Mar, 12 2013 @ 03:56 AM
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Originally posted by tetra50



I really do block out certain posters when I "feel" as though I need to defend myself and can't make out their communication as well as I can some others. Personality thing, I guess.


As well you should. Anyone who does not treat you the way you treat them, with common respect we all deserve, should be turned out, completely and entirlely. Because treating you that way , they only seek to belittle you and shut you up, render you pointless....


Okay, in this case you are wrong. Just plain wrong and mistaken!

From the beginning, I was confused and I was asking questions and ONLY desired to "get" what was being said. I was answered with some rude and snippy, sarcastic comments. I chose NOT to make a big deal out of those, I decided the woman was feeling defensive needlessly in the moment, but trusted that she would eventually calm down and see I have no ill intent, and even if disagreeing, it is not personal. I felt compassion.

I treated her with respect, and my intention was not to belittle her, or shut her up!
I did not react strongly to her sarcastic and insulting remarks (instead I just asked- "what was that comment all about, anyway?") precisely because
I choose not to place such a negative view on the nature of all mankind. I think people sometimes misunderstand intents and defend themselves without necessity, and it LOOKS like they are simply trying to shut you up, or belittle you, or insult you, or hurt you, or otherwise harm you. But it is usually not the case if you pay attention and hang in there, with faith in human beings.



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