God's Two Witnesses: KJV vs. Qu'arn

There are many different truely interesting stories within scripture and one that
has kept my interest for a veried period of time, is the account of "God's Two Witnesses",
which is written about in the Christian Gospel of Revelation.
en.wikipedia.org...

The specific passages that my inquiry to is:
KJV versoin;
..:[3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.]:..

I have a vested interest in this verse and the others that accompany the Two Witnesses as
I am in the process of writing a hypothesis in concerns of this message.

My quest is to confirm from the Qu'arn and Muslim faith to the authenticity of the Witnesses
thereby adding to the viability in truth and also to incorporate the findings within said
hypothesis draft.

I searched the 'forum' boards and this was the closest I could relate was this remark
posted by "OctoTom" in this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...
[OctoTom - all apologies for taking the liberty of using your work
for reference without your explicit permission)

[OCTOTOM..there will be two unnamed witnesses who proclaim God's gospel in Jerusalem and the whole world hears is. Half way through the Tribulation these two witnesses die and the AC walks into the Jewish Temple and goes into the Most Holy Place and sits on the Ark of the Covenant and declares himself to be God and he forces everyone to worship him. At the same time, due to the teachings of the two witnesses, 144,000 Jewish male virgins go into the world and proclaim God's gospel..]


To all that choose to expend their personal knowledge of this particularly interesting scripture,
I thank you in advance for your time and candacy.

reply to post by HumAnnunaki


I always took the two witnesses as being Moses and Elijah, the ones who were with Jesus during the transfiguration. I don't have anything specifically stating that, but that's who I think they are.

Or possibly the two thieves crucified with Jesus?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Thank you for your interpretation.

There are so0o0o many different interpretations that can be attributed
to the "Two Witnesses".

And as stated that this passage came from Revelations which we deem
to mean 'End of Days' - I believe it is worth the effort to decode.

It is my hope that the different biblical faiths will help to sort out this inquiry.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by HumAnnunaki

 

I always took the two witnesses as being Moses and Elijah, the ones who were with Jesus during the transfiguration. I don't have anything specifically stating that, but that's who I think they are.

Or possibly the two thieves crucified with Jesus?

There are a variety of Christian interpretations of this prophecy. Most fundamentalists believe it will be Enoch and Elijah, because neither one has seen death. God took both of them from the earth before they died. Scripture says it is appointed unto all men "once" to die. Not twice. Therefore, the reasoning for the aforementioned as prime candidates, considering that both witnesses will be killed, and left in the street for 3 days.

My version of this includes an explanation of "Their Lord" mentioned in that passage. "Their" focuses us on the witnesses, but I believe that it is actually referring to the beast that rises from the nations (Sea). "Their" Lord is Nimrod. All of religion must have a mirror or twin. If Jesus dies on a cross, another Lord must also be crucified in the mirror on the side of Satan's rulership. Satan tries to mirrors God in every way. This is where I left the subject. I do not know the events that this references in Egypt (Symbolically know as Sodom), but I have an idea it is Babel (Osiris being cut to pieces). This is a reference to languages being cut. Osiris and Nimrod, to my understanding, are the same.

Here is the Thread: Two Witnesses

I also believe that the two witnesses are the Christians and Israel.

Originally posted by HumAnnunaki
There are many different truely interesting stories within scripture and one that
has kept my interest for a veried period of time, is the account of "God's Two Witnesses",
which is written about in the Christian Gospel of Revelation.
en.wikipedia.org...

The specific passages that my inquiry to is:
KJV versoin;
..:[3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.]:..

I have a vested interest in this verse and the others that accompany the Two Witnesses as
I am in the process of writing a hypothesis in concerns of this message.

My quest is to confirm from the Qu'arn and Muslim faith to the authenticity of the Witnesses
thereby adding to the viability in truth and also to incorporate the findings within said
hypothesis draft.

I searched the 'forum' boards and this was the closest I could relate was this remark
posted by "OctoTom" in this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...
[OctoTom - all apologies for taking the liberty of using your work
for reference without your explicit permission)

[OCTOTOM..there will be two unnamed witnesses who proclaim God's gospel in Jerusalem and the whole world hears is. Half way through the Tribulation these two witnesses die and the AC walks into the Jewish Temple and goes into the Most Holy Place and sits on the Ark of the Covenant and declares himself to be God and he forces everyone to worship him. At the same time, due to the teachings of the two witnesses, 144,000 Jewish male virgins go into the world and proclaim God's gospel..]


To all that choose to expend their personal knowledge of this particularly interesting scripture,
I thank you in advance for your time and candacy.

@ Klassified -
Thank you for your reply.
I am very familiar with the Christian theology and look to learn that of the
Muslim and Judean interpretation to this riddle.

All three books hold the key IMO.

That being said: as you mentioned - Very interesting the death of the Two Witnesses
and the fact they lay "..in the streets for three and a half days.." Hmmm...
********************************************************************

@ EnochWasRight -

Intersting forum name you have;
If Enoch was right then that would substantiate the reason his gospel was omitted from the Bible!?!

Thank you for supplying your 'thread'.
I have skim~read it and odes seem to glean information.
I believe their is information in your thread that will prove pertinent

To all:
Be safe~Be Love~Be water my freinds!

reply to post by HumAnnunaki

My own interpretation takes the passage as a description of the double role of the church in the end-times; testifying against oppression like Moses, testifying against idolatry like Elijah.
My explanation can be found at this link;
Revelation; The two witnesses

Why would Muslims have an interpetation of a passage in a Christian book, and why would their understanding of it be relevant?

reply to post by HumAnnunaki


Now that I think of it, Revelation is not all about the future, it is also about the past.

Revelation 1
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

So it's not all about the future, it was about the present and the past too. Who's to say the passage you cited is about the future? It could have been about what was and did take place at that time and before.

I think a lot of what's in Revelation is a recounting of events that had already taken place.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by HumAnnunaki

 

I always took the two witnesses as being Moses and Elijah, the ones who were with Jesus during the transfiguration. I don't have anything specifically stating that, but that's who I think they are.

Or possibly the two thieves crucified with Jesus?

I believe Enoch and Elijah, for two reasons. First being one is a Jew and the other Gentile. Secondly, both men according to scripture never died but were taken to heaven. The significance of Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus was the symbolism of the Law and the prophets.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by HumAnnunaki

 

Now that I think of it, Revelation is not all about the future, it is also about the past.

Revelation 1
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

So it's not all about the future, it was about the present and the past too. Who's to say the passage you cited is about the future? It could have been about what was and did take place at that time and before.

I think a lot of what's in Revelation is a recounting of events that had already taken place.

That refers to chapter 1, (what John had seen to that point), chapters 2 & 3 deal with the letters to the 7 churches, (what is), and chapters 4 - 22 deal with the future. (Hereafter). "Metanoia" is the Greek term for hereafter or after this. Revelation 4:1 begins with that word, "metanoia".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So John's introduction and greeting to the church is the only thing he had seen up to that point? That's a weak argument.

Revelation 4:1 starts with "After this" in English, or is the translation wrong here? That doesn't mean he's talking about the future from there on out, only that he is telling a sequence of events.

The word "metanoia" does not mean what you say it does. It basically means repentance or a change of mind.

Definition
a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

Source

Originally posted by DISRAELI
My explanation can be found at this link;
Revelation; The two witnesses

Why would Muslims have an interpetation of a passage in a Christian book, and why would their understanding of it be relevant?

Welcome DISRAELI -
Thank you for posting your link: I see I have much to read from Forum members already.

The Muslim Qu'arn is similiar to the Christian Bible with some of the stories told in a different
fashion and sometimes with more or slightly different commentary revealing extra clues which
would make their interpretation to God's Two Witnesses more revealing.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Now that I think of it, Revelation is not all about the future, it is also about the past.

You are absolutely right in your assumption.

Genesis and Revelations are ONE divided by the New Testament.
It is the recounting of the Alpha and the Omega.

It is about the past - present - and future.

The passage I presented has more to do with this current world
then most give it credit for!

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Thank you for commenting.

Enoch and Elijah..interesting choice.

As there as so0o0o many different choices one can associate the Two Witnesses to
that I think we need start referencing one line at a time to debate an understanding.

Here is what I deem to be a clue;

KJV;;..:[4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.]:..

Who is God actually talking about..?

As H/E makes this statement in a 'third person' derivative leading one
to believe this statement is not about him but about..?

This has always puzzled me.

Hmmm............

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So John's introduction and greeting to the church is the only thing he had seen up to that point? That's a weak argument.

It was about the vision, yeah chapter one was dealing with what he had seen up till Christ began to speak.

Revelation 4:1 starts with "After this" in English, or is the translation wrong here? That doesn't mean he's talking about the future from there on out, only that he is telling a sequence of events.

The word "metanoia" does not mean what you say it does. It basically means repentance or a change of mind.

You're absolutely right, earlier as I waited to head to work I was simultaneously involved in another thread about repentance from sin and the Greek definition of the term and made a typo. The Greek word for "hear after/ after this" is "metaTOUTA" not metanoia. My bad, insert "metatouta" above in my response where I mistakenly typed "metanoia".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from. I don't think the angel was limiting "have seen" to those first 18 verses, it's ridiculous and narrow-minded to think so.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from. I don't think the angel was limiting "have seen" to those first 18 verses, it's ridiculous and narrow-minded to think so.

It certainly isn't, that's exactly what the text says.

Well, I can actually answer this.

What I have found is that many of the stories and predictions of Revelation are actually incomplete references to old testament prophesies. And here is the references to the witnesses.

Revelation 11

Zechariah 3 verses 8, 9, and 10

Zechariah 4

Zechariah 6

So who are these guys? They are the ones who built the second temple and the third temple. The white and the black horseman of Zechariah 6. One of them actually is named there.

11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

That's one of them and verse 13 hints at there would be another as well. And this verse from Malachi hints about them as well.

Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

This verse shows that there are 2 messengers. Could the branches be the messengers as well? It is as of yet a unfulfilled prophesy.

And then this becomes a interesting reference to the black horseman of Revelation. What if the 3rd horseman of Revelation is the black horseman of Zechariah? A Branch. Which would then mean the 3rd seal of Revelation is a story of the building of the 3rd temple. By the messenger of the covenant.

Something to think about.

reply to post by HumAnnunaki


The most holy is now in heaven. When Jesus was put to death the curtain that separated the Holy from the Most Holy was rent int two, showing that this took place. In any event, the temple and everything in it served as types, or merely representations of the the reality in heaven, or their antitypes.

Also the 144,000 are not literal Jews that will convert. Rather they are a "holy nation," the spiritual Israel of God, the anointed Christian congregation. And it is made up of both men and women, young and old, married and single. They are "virgins" in the fact that they have not polluted themselves with Satan's system of things, and take no part in his political governments on earth, in earthly warfare, no are they part of false religion. Their citizenship is in heaven, and while on earth they realize that they act as ambassadors substituting for the Christ. And since they are already citizens of God's heavenly kingdom government, they are neutral in earthly politics. All religions that partake in politics and warfare are disqualified as making up Christ's congregation on earth and are heading for sure destruction in the approaching great tribulation.

As for the two witnesses. There were also two prophets in the past that their works remind us of. For example take what the work Insight on the Scriptures has to say about it:

that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying.” (Re 11:3-6) These “witnesses” representing God as ‘prophets,’ or spokesmen, would not pronounce God’s favor or blessing on the plans and works of wicked men on earth. Like Elijah, who announced a three-and-a-half-year drought on Israel because of their practice of Baal worship promoted by King Ahab and his wife Jezebel, so these “two witnesses” figuratively “shut up heaven” so that no refreshing “rain” from God would come to bring prosperity to such efforts of men.—1Ki 17:1–18:45; Lu 4:25, 26; Jas 5:17, 18. wol.jw.org...=14:0-14:668

Also the fact that these two witnesses are able to consume their enemies with fire that issues forth from their mouths also reminds us of two prophets. For example Moses' pronouncement against Korah and his 250 men, and Jehovah's subsequent sending of fire from heaven and consuming them at the entrance of the tabernacle. (See Numbers 16:1-7; 28-35).

Elijah as well commanded fire to consume his enemies when King Ahaziah sent men to seize him, on two separate occasions. On the third, because he was asked by the wise man that approached him, he acquiescenced to going. (See 2 Kings 1:5-16.)

That the two witnesses represent the anointed is also seen in this scripture:

(Zechariah 4:11-14) . . .And I proceeded to answer and say to him: “What do these two olive trees on the right side of the lampstand and on its left side mean?” 12 Then I answered the second time and said to him: “What are the two bunches of twigs of the olive trees that, by means of the two golden tubes, are pouring forth from within themselves the golden [liquid]?” 13 So he said to me: “Do you not really know what these [things] mean?” In turn I said: “No, my lord.” 14 Accordingly he said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.”

Of course in his day the two anointed ones were Joshua and Zerubbabel.

Today the anointed, John-class are represented by the two-witnesses. They prophesied in sackcolth for 1,260 days between the December 1914 to June 1918. In October of the year 1914 Jesus began to rule as the Messianic King of Jehovah's heavenly kingdom government. In that year he attained the legal right over the earth. Instead of recognized him as legal heir to the earth and submitting to his rulership the kings of the earth broke out in all-out war.

Where would religion stand? A group of Bible Students had been proclaiming the year 1914 as the end of the "gentile times" when Jehovah allowed mankind to rule with no interference, and that in that year he would place his king-designate Jesus on the throne of power. The world's religious leaders on the other hand got involved with World War I and bloodied their hands with Satan's system of things yet again. The Churches of Christendom proved to be unfaithful to Jesus and thus were cast off forever, and now await their final judgement, destruction by the very governments they wish to prostitute themselves to.

The Bible Students however, mostly remained neutral to the war. Some not fully understanding the need to be completely neutral thought it was okay to join the army, not to kill, but as medics. Yet for the full 42 months these faithful witnesses "prophosied" in that they gave witness to the nations of their coming destruction and God's judgement upon religion.

cont...