Back-to-work scheme breached laws, says Court of Appeal

reply to post by SprocketUK


I actually agree with you that Government support of key industries is vital (how on earth can our industry expect to compete with other EU industries, much less the likes of China and India which are blatant with their state support) and in the case of certain industries (power + water for example) should even be nationalised, but that isn't the point I was making.

The point I was trying to convey was that while we obeyed EU directives on free markets etc, others circumvented the rules given themselves an unfair advantage against our industry, leading to their closure and foreign dominance which can now only be reversed through extensive nationalisation owing to the totally squiffy playing field. There is no hope, at the moment, of any British heavy industry that is privately owned being able to compete on a level playing field with a major French or German firm which receive state support.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by symptomoftheuniverse

 

It's quite freely available. Coal production in the 80's resulted in mountains of the stuff lying about - there was massive over capacity in the industry with falling global prices, so we couldn't even export it, all the while the Unions kept pushing for higher and higher wages, whilst at the same time fighting tooth and nail any attempts to reform the industry.

Yes, the Government wanted to close pits, but it was to consolidate the industry into the most productive and profitable pits and close the ones that weren't productive. You have to remember that the Coal industry, like every other heavy industry, was state owned from the end of WW2 and was not run with profit in mind, but just to provide jobs. This was not sustainable and by the 1980's, something needed to give.

The chap who was given the role of sorting out the Coal industry was the same guy who turned British Steel from a total money sink into the most efficient steel producer going, but this did come at the expense of job losses. Either industry is there to make something and turn a profit, or it is there to provide jobs and be a money sink for taxpayer cash. Which would you prefer?

It's also a bit rude to simply say "I think you're wrong".. I've gone to the effort of typing more than one line for you, why not do the same?

EDIT: It is also worth pointing out that not all miners supported the action of the Unions and actually agreed with the Government, so much so they broke away from the NUM and formed their own Union. It was very much a case of a bad but necessary situation being made a whole lot worse by the actions of militant Unions, who quite often . ignored the wishes of their members.

edit on 13/2/13 by stumason because: (no reason given)

[./quote] im sorry for being rude,your right i was rude. I suppose it comes down to wealth for all or just for the few. Wecould have kept all the miners and still have cheaper energy bills today. They killed the unions and cut the top rate of tax. I remember social clubs,marching bands and majoretts, lord mayor parades, trips to the seeside payed by social clubs. All sacrificed so the rich can have more money. The culmination of all this?SLAVE LABOUR.

reply to post by thePharaoh


Buddy i am one of those students. Im in total agreement with you!

This country is devouring itself from the inside out!

Just remember when the music stops, grab a chair!

here's my experience of how industry changed for us indigenous workers...

The company i worked for (structural engineers) started taking advantage of eastern European workers very early on, Personally i worked night shift on a decent rate of pay with all the overtime you could handle and i mean the employer, (a farmer) would let you work 24 hours if you wanted..i could clear £800 per week if i could muster the strength...not easy when you work with steel day in day out..
He started employing Some northern Irish...(he was Irish himself) in management when the company started to grow, they in turn bought into the eastern European worker...payed £2 an hour less than us and any over time they did was paid at single time, no shift allowance etc....

It was ok for a while as there was only 4 or 5 of them then one of the Hungarians started to get his friends a job here and there, none of them as far as we could see were tradesmen, they had two weeks to prove themselves as welders or Platers, the locals got a afternoon...

Before the year was out i worked nightshift with 10 locals and 25 Hungarians and Poles, then the overtime was hit, any over time was given to Lazlo eventually we the locals were pulled off the nighthshift...

The management had bought up around 7 houses locally to house them, sometimes 10 to a house, some even slept in garages....You may find this hard to believe, but trust me this is the truth and i have heard similar stories from the construction sector...
I dont Blame anyone for trying to better their lives by moving to a country far away. that takes a bold move and good luck to anyone who does...that's not my gripe here.

The Hungarians and poles earned 5/6 times their annual salary here, they were buying up property back home,
one guy had, after 4 years here, bought 3 houses and was partners in a nightclub on less wages than me....Tell me a country in the EU i could move too to earn this sort of money and allow me the same privileges here...

At the end i couldn't work with them no more as they had no concept of health and safety and were always getting injured or injuring some other soul....eventually i was going between a 4 or 3 day week for what seemed like months and it was time to move on as i was struggling with rent and such.

Last i heard they had over 120 eastern Europeans working both onsite and at the factory or at the farms

That's my experience of how things have changed for us indigenous workers, just thought i would share..

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Thankyou for sharing, it came to the point a number of years ago that if you did not employ foreign labour then you could not compete. Blame the politicians and the media.
Only thing we can do is never vote for a political party again as they are all corrupt. Represent the people my arse.

Originally posted by symptomoftheuniverse
Only thing we can do is never vote for a political party again as they are all corrupt. Represent the people my arse.

Herein lies the point I was making earlier - people vote for party's when so such recognition actually exists in Parliament or the voting booth - you're supposed to vote for the candidate but how many even know who their candidate is and just vote along party lines?

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
here's my experience of how industry changed for us indigenous workers...

The company i worked for (structural engineers) started taking advantage of eastern European workers very early on, Personally i worked night shift on a decent rate of pay with all the overtime you could handle and i mean the employer, (a farmer) would let you work 24 hours if you wanted..i could clear £800 per week if i could muster the strength...not easy when you work with steel day in day out..
He started employing Some northern Irish...(he was Irish himself) in management when the company started to grow, they in turn bought into the eastern European worker...payed £2 an hour less than us and any over time they did was paid at single time, no shift allowance etc....

It was ok for a while as there was only 4 or 5 of them then one of the Hungarians started to get his friends a job here and there, none of them as far as we could see were tradesmen, they had two weeks to prove themselves as welders or Platers, the locals got a afternoon...

Before the year was out i worked nightshift with 10 locals and 25 Hungarians and Poles, then the overtime was hit, any over time was given to Lazlo eventually we the locals were pulled off the nighthshift...

The management had bought up around 7 houses locally to house them, sometimes 10 to a house, some even slept in garages....You may find this hard to believe, but trust me this is the truth and i have heard similar stories from the construction sector...
I dont Blame anyone for trying to better their lives by moving to a country far away. that takes a bold move and good luck to anyone who does...that's not my gripe here.

The Hungarians and poles earned 5/6 times their annual salary here, they were buying up property back home,
one guy had, after 4 years here, bought 3 houses and was partners in a nightclub on less wages than me....Tell me a country in the EU i could move too to earn this sort of money and allow me the same privileges here...

At the end i couldn't work with them no more as they had no concept of health and safety and were always getting injured or injuring some other soul....eventually i was going between a 4 or 3 day week for what seemed like months and it was time to move on as i was struggling with rent and such.

Last i heard they had over 120 eastern Europeans working both onsite and at the factory or at the farms

That's my experience of how things have changed for us indigenous workers, just thought i would share..

It's terrible and it's happening all over the country... where I currently work, an English made company made over 150 years ago is 90% eastern European. It's unbelievable, one would expect some sort of English test before allowing someone into the country...I know of 10 people out of like 60 that speak good English. To be honest, I wouldn't mind immigration if they at least learnt English...

reply to post by stumason


Yes its is slave labour. Lets see it like this, 30 hours a week at minimum wage of 5.25 would be £157.50 a week but on the scheme they are getting benefits of £125 a fortnight!! that is completely wrong and is slave labour. If some multi million pound company can give you a position then they can pay you minimum wage to go along with it. After all there is meal expenses clothing and travel expenses to take into account also.

On a government scheme they would be working on the same rate as illegal immigrant in some dodgy work house or the like.

reply to post by stumason
my parents voted labour all their lives now they complain that they now have a bedroom tax and will now be forced to move, to a 1 bedroom flat where the grandchildren wont be able to stop. I told them their house is needed for a large immigrant family and their grandchildren will be forced into slve labour. Happy now mum?
I dont think so.
But they will still vote labour next election.

reply to post by michael1983l


Even if everyone in this country did have a job and there was no dole Q where would the people at the dole office work. In any situation you would still be taxed to high hell. You would be paying for all the foreign migrants coming here for all reasons to suck our NHS system and other benefits.

reply to post by Ezappa


Like I have already said, the young lady lived at home with her parents, so would have been unable to claim anything extra, however there was a second claimant who was a mechanic I believe who had his own home, wife and kids. He would have been in receipt of the whole raft of benefits above and beyond the £500/week cap coming in this April.

As I also said, looking simply at the JSA as their income without taking into account the myriad of other benefits they may also be claiming, then using that figure to justify your argument as them not getting paid enough is misleading.That is like me taking out my rent, tax and other bills from my pay, then dividing the remainder by my hours to work out my hourly total.

What about the 40000+ children that don't live in this country that we are paying child benefit for ?
People in this country should be outraged at this rather than a few scroungers here in the UK.

Link

Link

TBH i would rather pay for scroungers in my own country than ones from others.

reply to post by stumason


Don't you think the tax he has paid over the years should cover that. After all he has been working for years before and has paid his dues and deserves to look for his own work at the cost of me and you. I can remember the times of Unemployed Benefit and it was a right for 2 years before they changed it to JSA.

reply to post by symptomoftheuniverse


That winds me up no end, people who stick with a party no matter what - I personally voted for my local Tory candidate based upon his track record in the constituency and I agreed with the general stance of the Tories about the economy...

However, I am more than willing to vote for someone else if they can make a decent enough argument - I'd even vote for a Labour candidate if they could put a coherent opposition together and offer a credible alternative, but they cannot at the moment.

But those who are "xxxx till I die" are just easily led morons. I get the feeling that they'd vote for their party even if the advocating the eating of babies - it is shocking how few people even understood what was in each parties manifesto at the last election, how can they vote when they don't know what they are voting for?

reply to post by Ezappa


The first raft of JSA you get actually takes into account the NI contributions and once used up, you drop down to the statutory amount, so for the first 6 months or so he would have been getting even more than you claim he was. Not only that, but he will also be getting a state pension at 67 from those contributions, whether or not he used them all up being unemployed.

Also, not all Tax goes on social welfare, but the NHS, roads, railways, schools, defence, foreign aid, bankers bonuses etc etc . It is again misleading to try and claim that because he paid "x" amount over the course of "y" years, he should get "z" back. Far too many people are being overly simplistic with this subject, when in reality it is complex and confusing - it is no wonder mistakes happen.

Maybe we should be directing our anger in this direction..
www.bbc.co.uk...

it astounds me how these parasites can be allowed to claim £169 per week for food alone when the rest of us plebs have to make do with £71 for food, clothing and gas and electricity and travel some council tax and Bedroom tax...

I know who the real Skivers and scroungers are, do you??

reply to post by stumason


They really need to find other solutions other than stick people on forced work schemes where in most cases don't benefit the claimant or the Tax payer.

If they can find you a position in a multi million pound industry then surly they can pay you a wage or top up on your benefits and take a little tax to make everyone a little happier about the situation. At the moment if your on a work scheme you're still being paid by the government/Tax payer which is not really solving the problem but adding to it.

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Years back, when the expenses thing broke, I said to many that I do not understand why they don't just spend a pot of cash on a big building of serviced apartments where they can all sleep and eat.

Yes, it would cost a few tens (or even hundreds) of millions in the short term, but if we then took away their expenses for second homes, food and other luxuries it would soon be clawed back.

For crying out loud though, I have to go away for work in March. I get my travel and hotel paid for, plus £25 a day food but if I tried to get my employer to pay for a second home, I'd be sacked on the spot! A lot of these expenses are hangovers from the days when it took a long time to get from Yorkshire to London.. Nowadays you can do it in 4 hours, there should be no need for many of these "perks"

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Its the old slight of hand trick. They are good at making you look the other way while ripping you off with the other. Divide and Conquer at its best.

With the cost of migrants and their benefits as well as the tax paid housing for the MPs I bet the cost far out weighs the few scroungers and honest people who can not get a job.

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by ObservingYou

 

About time..

Common sense and moral victory.

C...

Yep until some jerk wad in the USA decides to implement it. I see it happening.
Everyone blames the Unions. Did they even read up on Early childhood education and post high school education labor laws? Did you know there is already Federal law that grants them the ability to make less than minimum wage? THEY HAVE NO MINIMUM WAGE FIR EDUCATORS!!! Now stop asking why the hell the teachers need unions, if they didn't they'd be paid less than they already makes which is dogpile now as it is!!!