Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by reeferman
There are no faxes from heaven. A God would not need to write anything down.
do you see that you are defining God. Although you are right in a sense, i am not claiming Bible as my source.
You are doing what theists do when you define God. Why?
You define then you compare with scriptures and then reject, is that logical?
You jumped ahead of the topic, we are discussing 'does God exist' and you went ahead and started to define how He is or how He is not.
Just because there is no proof does not mean thats proof God does not exist.
You make a faulty leap of logic here. Who says that god has to be all powerful?
if a being can control my thinking then it will be easy to just make me believe, isnt that said to happen in demonic possession?
Lets go back and start from start, why would a being claim that?
If it wants something material then its definitely not god.
The problem you put is equally a problem to theist and atheist.
I have an answer as a muslim but thats not objective but consistent with my belief.
If i am defenseless and believe in the real God then protecting me is easy for Him. Actually it runs deeper, if ignorantly i have a wrong belief even then i'l be protected.
If i am searching for Creator then He should be 'Higher' than me, nobody can create something better than itself.
If our lack of proof for the nonexistence of "God" disqualifies our argument, then your lack of proof for the existence of "God" should disqualify yours.
Our argument is
based on reasoning that has been tried and proven in every scientific
study known to man.
Yours is based
on faith, something that is only used
when there's a very good reason to lie
to yourself. This reason is both
subjective and purely emotional
I was thinking specifically of the capabilities attributed to Jinn, but similar ideas surround demons. The Western image of "demonic possession," though, connotes something disabling, and the person "not being themselves." I was pointing to the possibility of a supernatural being misleading me about the performance of the fairly elementary tests you proposed, without disabling me in the process.
I am unsure what you mean by
wanting something material. A
roomful of adults prostrating
themselves in unison is a material
thing. Or, to put it another way, if the
being wants anything from me, then whatever that is needs to be material,
because that's all I have to give.
Perhaps so, but I am neither, and I am talking with you, who is one and not the other, on the occasion of your announcing that you have some ideas about the nature of proof.
OK, that's fine. I know I'm talking with
a particular person, and that like
everybody else, you'll bring your own
beliefs and perspective to the
There are lots of ways to be higher
than any of us, and I don't see any
reason at all why anybody's product
couldn't be "better" than the
producer. I also point out that only
some gods are world-creators, whether individually or collectively.
Zeus, for example, created no world,
nor did he join with others to make
any world, but he is surely a god if he
yes it is an assumption but logical. If i am searching for Creator then He should be 'Higher' than me,
God should also not be lower than some other by that logic.
So He should be Highest, All Powerful etc.
it is likely but as i said, i am only responsible for what i choose when aware. I accept my limitation. It appears like perfect mind control.
let me clarify, if it has material 'needs' say demands food.
we have discussed that its foolish to try to comprehend something thats beyond our own physical limits.
Can you explain how a 'created' can be greater than the 'creator' as a whole?
Mount Olympus was found empty, right. The point hangs on if Zeus exists.
it can be creative for sure but once it has been proven wrong then why bring it up?
It is not logical to assume you were created. If you believe me to be wrong, then prove it.
when did i say i lack proof? If you read the posts till now you wouldnt say this. Even in the OP i hinted otherwise.
you are contradicting yourself. You are saying you arguement has been proven?? Your arguement is 'God doesnt exist' right? Would you share the proof please.
When you find a perfect wooden circle somewhere, you presume a positive assumption of a creator for it yet when you see a much more complicated universe the you assume it was by chance.
Even when archeologists find a piece of a stone spear-head they assume existence of homo sapiens(intelligent being)
science is based on observable reproducable facts.
If things are left to themselves then disorder always increases.
Origin of life defies this, almost mocks it.
A lightening bolt zapped and it cleaved into two perfect organisms? Also arranging the DNA in inheritable sequences with codes to live, procreate and even die! Very scientific indeed! I should put a lighting conductor on a truck and wait (far away) and let thunder bolts zap it again and again till it converts to Optimus Prime! How many zaps do you think would do the trick?
1) i assume you believe that the basic purpose of a living cell is to live.
When a zygote is formed its just a group of cells, the 'moulding' actually happens by programmed cell death, apoptosis, simply put, the unfortunate cells that were between my fingers had to die so that i have seperated fingers. The programmed death is contradicting to the interest of those cells. Unless they either knew the bigger picture(not likely) or they were controlled/pre programmed by 'someone' who knew the bigger picture.
2) the same pattern can be observed in a colony of ants. A soldier ant will be ready to die to protect the hill. Either it sees the bigger picture of belonging to a system and does it's part of defence(again not likely) or 'someone' created it that way and it is a live automaton, a living robot, reacting to preset patterns & stimuli. What appears more likely to you?
Can an organised colony/system with all its individual part evolve without the individuals in it being aware of it? How the hell the 1st 'evolved' soldier ant knew that formic acid is an irritant.
3) similar question and much closer, your own stomach, how did the 1st Hydrochloric acid using digestive system 'evolved' and also knew it has to also produce mucus and other neturalizers to protect itself from the acid? And at the same time!! Because if not then the organism would have died before passing that amazing system.
So what do you say?
In order for "God" to be all-powerful, he has to exist. And from what I have seen, even if he does exist, he's pretty damn pathetic. I've seen teenagers accomplish more than he's willing to do. I've seen teenagers save lives where he was unwilling to step in.
Abraham had supernatural visitors who ate and drank at his tent.
There doesn't seem to be any
principled reason why a creature
couldn't do everything its creator
does, and do at least one thing
Because we're trying find tests that
distinguish gods from other
supernatural beings, and we have to