No Proof is NO PROOF for Inexistence of God.

reply to post by wildtimes


Since you appear to be wading further into this discussion than just ankle-deep, I suppose I'll toss a query in your direction as well:

What is your definition of a god? Here's the Merriam-Webster version, but I'm interested in your personal take on the matter as well.

1god
noun ˈgäd also ˈgȯd
Definition of GOD
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
4
: a powerful ruler

Of course, in order to determine what is "natural", we must take into consideration that to label anything as unnatural is to imply that we have a perfect grasp on the understanding of our reality and this universe. We are discovering scientific mysteries every day, so to assume that we have the idea of "natural" down to a science would seem absurd.

But that's just my 2 cents.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Since you appear to be wading further into this discussion than just ankle-deep, I suppose I'll toss a query in your direction as well:

What is your definition of a god? Here's the Merriam-Webster version, but I'm interested in your personal take on the matter as well.

Well! I'm really glad you asked! I have been reading, as I've stated lately, "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. Daily. I was focused on it and so haven't been posting until I was done (which was late yesterday).....
(plus....you missed me? That's nice, if so)

Read longer post above this one again (the one you replied to). I explained what I think is the 'definition' of "God." It can't be 'defined.'
Your cited definitions (thanks, btw) don't get it, anymore than most Westerners do. I'm over 50 years old, and I'm only now beginning to grasp this entirely - after three decades of searching and contemplation, reading and thinking.

reply to post by wildtimes

Well! I'm really glad you asked! I have been reading, as I've stated lately, "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. Daily. I was focused on it and so haven't been posting until I was done (which was late yesterday).....
(plus....you missed me? That's nice, if so)

Well, you're a better researcher than I am...I've already been informed that the book isn't conclusive.

And...pfft. I always miss you.

Your cited definitions (thanks, btw) don't get it, anymore than most Westerners do. I'm over 50 years old, and I'm only now beginning to grasp this entirely - after three decades of searching and contemplation, reading and thinking.

Well, see, my question was more nature-oriented than observation-oriented. That is, more to do with the actual inherent nature of something than how people perceive it. Is the term "god" just a perceptive label, or is it an actual quality determined by self-contained factors?

That's why I was asking. I was hoping you might be able to shed some light on that, but I guess we're kind of on the same page. Dang.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

.I've already been informed that the book isn't conclusive.

It is consummately inconclusive!

That's what makes it interesting.
And so profound.

It forces one to look at the history, and ancient development of the concept, and how brains work.....from prehistory to modern neuroscience......

The point of the tome (yes, it's big, but fascinating) is that we don't know, and we can't know for sure. YET.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

At this very moment, I am watching a rerun of 'Through the Wormhole' (on the Science channel, host Morgan Freeman) that talks about exactly this phenomenon. It's huge, bigger than us.......
we don't know yet.
Did we invent God? Or did God invent us?
Perhaps both are correct.......
the search for divine truth......is it uniquely human?
Watch it!

reply to post by wildtimes


I have all these ideas cluttering up my head, but there are so many that I have a hard time finding the words for all of them. Thankfully, one of the most relevant to this subject just reared its glorious head and handed me exactly the wording I needed to express it.

This, I think, is the struggle that "God" represents:

Does meaning create us, or do we create meaning? Are we the product or the producer? The beginning? Or the end? The slave, or the master? We are linear thinkers in a circular world. We think in terms of beginning and end instead of perpetuation. So maybe we create the meaning that creates us, but one half of our species focuses on the meaning that creates us, and the other half focuses on the meaning we create.

Like I said, a lot of the ideas in my head are so difficult to express because many of them toe the line between paradox and conundrum, and only by flexing our unyielding comprehension of intangible concepts am I able to plug it in and come out with a continuing number, like .33333 or .666666. And that tells me that not only were ideas never meant to be put inside of a box, but that the universe reflect such concepts in that it too has no end. To put ideas in a box for the sake of physical communication, to put the universe inside a box for the sake of human comprehension...to do any of that, is to limit the imagination. Instead of stretching ourselves, we are compressing the universe and everything about it. We are squeezing it in a small space because we have trained our minds not to stretch.

That is the biggest problem I have with religion - it teaches us to avoid flexing the mind, flexing the imagination, and without imagination, how can we ever hope to understand the universe? Without imagination, how can we ever hope to master the creativity that defines us? The creativity that is godly?

Because that's what makes us gods...our ability to imagine and create. And I think that makes imagination, creativity, the ability to realize our dreams through the sheer power of determination and vision...that is what makes the imagination our god. That's what I venerate. The power of imagination.

Whew! Thank goodness I got that out haha. I'm glad I was able to express it finally. Do you know how long I've been searching for those words? It feels good. But anyway, yeah. Something for all of ATS to consider.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Because that's what makes us gods...our ability to imagine and create.

Do you believe you are a god?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by wildtimes

 

That is the biggest problem I have with religion - it teaches us to avoid flexing the mind, flexing the imagination, and without imagination, how can we ever hope to understand the universe

The universe cannot be understood with imagination. Imagination can imagine any thing but it cannot imagine reality because reality is not a thing.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Do you believe you are a god?

We are all capable of being gods, if we choose to be, understand it and know how.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The universe cannot be understood with imagination. Imagination can imagine any thing but it cannot imagine reality because reality is not a thing.

Neither is love, but we don't have a problem imagining that, do we?

Boom.

I am an atheist (in the generally accepted meaning), but I believe "God" exists. I can say this because I have become convinced that the Bible is allegory and “God” is a metaphor. This means we don't have to prove what God isn't; we just prove what he is. If we could successfully decipher say 90% of Biblical allegory, this would prove to many that God is a metaphor. (The allegoric interpretations of parts of the Bible by Philo and others were part of a campaign of disinformation intended to discourage any secular examination.) Having already made some progress in this direction, I am certain that it can be done. The real proof, however, would come from the discovery that Biblical allegory was not confined to religious writings. Based on my observations, there must be thousands of non-Biblical writings that have employed this type of allegory and when the successful deciphering of these is added to the deciphered Bible, the proof will be at least as strong as the proof of the Theory of Evolution. Naturally, Christians will still deny it, just as they deny Evolution, but for the rest of us, it should be enough.

reply to post by swordwords


Then what is "God" a metaphor for? What is the literal nature of its/his/her existence?

reply to post by swordwords


Do what Bertrand Russell did and do a quick two-step to change your position to Agnostic.

Now you only have to prove you don't know.

reply to post by swordwords

(The allegoric interpretations of parts of the Bible by Philo and others were part of a campaign of disinformation intended to discourage any secular examination.)

Can you source this, please?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Do you believe you are a god?

We are all capable of being gods, if we choose to be, understand it and know how.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

The universe cannot be understood with imagination. Imagination can imagine any thing but it cannot imagine reality because reality is not a thing.

Neither is love, but we don't have a problem imagining that, do we?

Boom.

edit on 19-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Do you imagine love?

I am not capable of being 'a' god.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Do you imagine love?

I am not capable of being 'a' god.

Thinking like that will ensure you won't be. What I imagine is beside the point.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Do you imagine love?

I am not capable of being 'a' god.

Thinking like that will ensure you won't be. What I imagine is beside the point.

There is only one God.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

There is only one God.

According to who or what?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

There is only one God.

According to who or what?

edit on 19-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Oneness.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

What I imagine is beside the point.

You have said that you imagine love.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Neither is love, but we don't have a problem imagining that, do we?

Boom.

edit on 19-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You state that 'we' don't have a problem imagining love. I don't imagine love.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

You state that 'we' don't have a problem imagining love. I don't imagine love.

Do you imagine anything that you can't touch or see? An intangible idea, something that only exists inside of you? That's what I'm talking about. Not just love.