The Vanity of Enlightenment

reply to post by 1nf1del


I think what you mean is it's a lot like love. You can't look for it, you can only stumble across it, because human nature doesn't attract us to understanding. That's essentially what it is - transcending the flaws of the human character. By transcending, I don't mean beating your flaws. I mean transcending the difficulties they pose.

LesMisanthrope has stated that enlightenment is vain. Perhaps the vanity is only in that we try to achieve what we envision to be enlightenment, and that vision is vain. But that vision isn't enlightenment. We are chasing what we want to be instead of what we should be. Isn't this always the case?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

I think this is where our opinions part ways. I believe it is the ego that leads us away from the passions of the flesh and keeps us in check.

It's really a double edge sword, the ego. Many of the oldest traditions, especially the Native Americans and South Americans, along with much of Eastern Philosophy say that we are disconnected from the Heart, which they all call the source, etc ...hence all the worldly problems.

If anything, the ego eventually agrees, if there is wisdom and intellect involved, that it has caused a lot of trouble and that passions of the flesh have enslaved reason.

So to a certain degree, the ego does agree to partake in the search for enlightenment, wisdom, self betterment, and to with drawl from excesses of passions.

It's created society, morality, honor—costumes under which our true nature hide. Like you said, it creates fantasy and delusion to distort the truth. Perhaps our definition of ego is different.

There is a brilliant author/philosopher named Peter Kingsley, who provides ample historic proof that logic/reason/intellect were instilled into the human being by supernatural means, as a gift from the Absolute Beingness. Hence it is Logic/Reason/Intellect that has given us society, politics, science, technology, etc.

However, Logic/Reason/Intellect being head based, it was supposed to be tempered with the Heart, Love/Intuition/Selflessness, but that never happened.

So this is where the schism is between East & West. Granted the East hasn't evolved as rapidly in society/science/tech as the West, but at least there is maintained a rich Monastic/Mystical culture that has to do with the Heart/Truth/Enlightenment.

On the other hand, the West has risen rapidly in society/science/tech, but is spiritually dead.

Both have ups and downs. I think the beauty of the rise of Western culture, is the rise of first world countries, technology (internet especially), science, etc. I find that pockets of society that are more informed and educated via schooling and Internet, the less crime there is.

However, I still stand by the statement that all the worlds problems are caused by the Ego/Body-Animalistic Instinct complex. The Ego operates in division, me vs. you, black vs white, nationalism, hatred, greed, corruption, etc. ts a very sick sick thing.

I suppose it is extremely difficult to explain to those who haven't experienced the experience you've had. Whether it's enlightenment you've experienced isn't clear enough to agree with you, but I don't think you're being dishonest.

It is hard to describe, but the "how to get there" is easy to describe and actually quite simple.

In my case, the states that have been realized or shown or accessed by me, I have tested them by asking others who are in it 24/7 if it is for real. I have access to Zen Monasteries, Eastern Orthodox Hermits, Various Mystics of various cultures who have uncovered in themselves the Absolute. So I have a rich database with which to test my own realizations. However, for me, it is incremental and in pieces, Glimpses here, instances there, ever longer and longer periods in the Absolute state..... but nowhere near where some of the elders are.

My next step, is a prolonged period in solitude/silence, so as to completely unravel/let go of a ll the relative cultural programming and personal bias bubble that was formed by the aspects of this world. When you Unknow everything, then the Absolute shines bright (but even that is one of many Many ways "there").

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I only care that others care about their goals.

I'm not sure I'm giving credibility to anything, except perhaps my own thoughts. I'm only a critic here.

Nonsense. People have many goals which you pay no attention or offer critique. This one is of personal effect to/on you, lest you wouldn't create so many threads exploring it and trying to advertise your own brand of enlightenment (aka understanding).

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
My goal with this thread is to show that we often value things that are illusory, unsubstantiated, invisible, supersensual and non-existent, let alone anything that has value. They are often only words and ideas that point to nothing but the one who holds on to them.

Who are you to say what is of value to another? Are you to suggest you would understand the things you understand now just as well if you hadn't gone down and experienced your own "dead ends"? Does a person understand "burn" if someone else tells them about it, or when they experience it? Does wisdom come from trying or just believing someone else?

Thoughts are illusory, invisible, supersensual, non-existent, and when you really try to figure out "from whence they came"... unsubstantiated. Yet you derive your entire point from your thoughts... but you can no more show me your thoughts than someone can show you their enlightenment. You can no more "nail down" a thought because that is just a thought of nailing down a thought.

And yet you could give no value to anything without having thought it.

You've been given the message and keep saying it loud and clear in here, you're just too busy arguing with it because it didn't match your expectations and for some reason feel you can "save others" from their illusions.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

I think what you mean is it's a lot like love. You can't look for it, you can only stumble across it, because human nature doesn't attract us to understanding. That's essentially what it is - transcending the flaws of the human character. By transcending, I don't mean beating your flaws. I mean transcending the difficulties they pose.

LesMisanthrope has stated that enlightenment is vain. Perhaps the vanity is only in that we try to achieve what we envision to be enlightenment, and that vision is vain. But that vision isn't enlightenment. We are chasing what we want to be instead of what we should be. Isn't this always the case?

edit on 12-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Yes thank you!

Enlightment annoys me! Humans are sooo full of crap, even crappier now compared to the 90's...we are sooooooo craaapppyyy yy yy y (echoooo)

Originally posted by uthu74
Enlightment annoys me! Humans are sooo full of crap, even crappier now compared to the 90's...we are sooooooo craaapppyyy yy yy y (echoooo)

edit on 12-2-2013 by uthu74 because: (no reason given)

Does schooling annoy you as well? How about education, that must be real annoying!

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


When I think of someone who is "enlightened", I don't think of myself in this light. However I do look at others as whether or not they have "light" within and abroad. How they think, their actions, their contributions and so on. Typically this is not thought of on a personal basis via myself.

I was reading an article about my fav. scientist of all time, Albert Einstein. It pertains to this thread and also goes along with my train of thought on the subject matter, so I will share a quote or two. www.lowdensitylifestyle.com... The publication is from two years ago and its titled, "The Masters of Enlightenment: Albert Einstein"

From Albert......

Words and language, whether written or spoken, do not seem to play any part in my thought processes. The psychological entities that serve as building blocks for my thought are certain signs or images, more of less clear, that I can reproduce and recombine at will.”

Creative thinking is well lit up within an "enlightened" one, in my humble opinion and this type of mind can articulate their visions clearly for all to understand. They leave their evolving mind open as its a never ending journey for the enlightened mind.

Einstein was a brilliant creative thinker, one who saw the universe with fresh eyes. He had beginner’s mind – the mind of an original thinker – and maintained it his entire life. At his memorial, the scientist Robert Oppenheimer proclaimed: “He was almost wholly without sophistication and wholly without worldliness . . . There was always with him a wonderful purity at once childlike and profoundly stubborn.” Einstein and the Indian poet, novelist, musician and mystic Tagore When you mix in his creative thinking and original mind with his tendency towards mysticism, you arrive at someone who is enlightened. And the beauty of Einstein’s enlightened mind was that he was able to articulate his vision clearly, for all to understand.

So, it seems to me, the "enlightened" mind is a journey and one that does not reach its destination.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I enjoy your opinion. I agree with it. When someone talks to me in the second person, as if they somehow know what I should do, I take it quite literally. So I apologize for getting defensive.

reply to post by 1nf1del


Aha! school is made to support current system, asian lived in harmony with nature all along untill modern economy was introduce.

And all my life, I met only one person who is trully enlighted. Just imagine how many enlightment guru goes for free? Dalai Lama? He should gave his life for his people instead of fleeing.

So I still think humans are crappy, I don't mock with no reason. And so should you

Crap is crap. (if you are not crappy be calm)

Wanna go on?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I respect your confusion in the matter. I agree with you in that it's a very finicky subject. That's why it's important not to place too much importance on it, because it's not written in stone. It's very unstable, like a reflection of our mind. And whatever works for you, all the more power to you. If we all did and said the same things, the world would be a boring place.

And that, my friend, is an illuminating thought. Perhaps even enlightened.

Thank you for the discussion. I anticipate seeing where it takes us both.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


The difference between my thoughts and perhaps yours are that mine are derived from evidence, logic and argument. It's easy to pass them off as "nonsense," but that is usually done by avoiding critical thought. I am easily convinced if anyone can make a good case for enlightenment. However, not a single person against the OP has attempted to convince me with rationality, only with insult and more unsubstantiated claims.

"You're wrong" just doesn't do it for me.

Originally posted by uthu74
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

Aha! school is made to support current system, asian lived in harmony with nature all along untill modern economy was introduce.

And all my life, I met only one person who is trully enlighted. Just imagine how many enlightment guru goes for free? Dalai Lama? He should gave his life for his people instead of fleeing.

So I still think humans are crappy, I don't mock with no reason. And so should you

Crap is crap.

Wanna go on?

I'm sorry you took it as mocking it wasn't meant that way, but maybe ignorance should annoy you more than enlightenment!

reply to post by MamaJ


Good to see you in this thread! Yes, I can connect with Einstein's way of thinking. I don't think in words or defined concepts. I think in impressions. My mind is like water, molding itself to changes in temperature and vector, making shapes according to stimuli. These shapes are neither constant nor definable, but they leave a lasting impression that reflects the nature of everything that touches it. And somewhere, deep down, the sand stirs slightly, leaving behind the footprint of an idea. Someday, those footprints will connect and create a mosaic of mystery that, if you study it long enough, will unlock the ancient riddle of being: what does it mean...to mean?

This is how I think.

Originally posted by MamaJ
So, it seems to me, the "enlightened" mind is a journey and one that does not reach its destination.

(Your post is just my launching pad, this isn't directed necessarily to you specifically )

More than that, it's not a linear line from "non" to "on". It's not even a plane or a 3D space. It's just the full scope of all things that could possibly be understood... some of which are mutually exclusive and only can be understood in their relative context.

I am enlightened to the effect of the Federal Reserve.
I am enlightened to my strange enjoyment of raw hot dogs dipped in strawberry yogurt a few years ago.
I am enlightened to my lack of enjoyment of raw hot dogs dipped in strawberry yogurt now (which one is "true"?).
I am enlightened to basic Javascript coding in Unity.
I am enlightened to my girlfriend from college who cheated on me with my friend.
I am enlightened to the sensation of being "one being" with the universe.
I am enlightened to being a conscious aware decision making being within a dream world that was as real at the time as this one is now.
I am enlightened to my lack of enjoyment of dog poop smell.

I am aware/understand these things.

I am unenlightened to cross stiching.
I am unenlightened to most chemical reactions.

I am not very aware of nor understand those things.

It's an absurd conversation. The "enlightenment" spoken of in particular is almost inevitably regarding that sensation of absolute sureness that you and "the universe" are one and that everything is "as it should be". It's an experience just like hot dogs tasting good in yogurt is an experience. Do with it as you choose. Believe people that they have had that experience of hot dogs tasting good in yogurt... or don't.

Even those who proclaim this experience as "THE" enlightenment repeat that if you cling to it you will lose it. However if you remain ever aware of it... it is always there even when in the middle of cleaning up dog poop that you didn't track through the hall.

We argue about "enlightenment" the way we argue about "walking"... forgetting that what we're really talking about is a massive pile of "understandings" that some people have been able to integrate into a worldview and way of communicating that makes all the seemingly disconnected items suddenly reveal a deeper connection. But that's just *understanding*.

If a person studies Calculus for a year but still doesn't "get it", does that mean Calculus doesn't exist? Well in fact it does... because Calculus doesn't exist.

Calculus is a way of seeing and thinking and interacting with the world no different than seeing and thinking and interacting with the world as if it were "you yourself" as opposed to "an other". So what exists is "calculus aware thinking" being "enlightening"... just as "universal aware thinking" might be called one type of enlightenment. If we just drop the loaded word (like "god") and use "understanding"... suddenly it becomes a simple hop skip and jump.

But nope, we gotta get hung up on words... rather than recognizing words as the ultimate enemy to understanding.

When someone reads these words, they are not reading my thoughts or understanding. They are reading a string of letters that form a patter which THEIR thoughts and understanding receives and turns into thoughts and understandings of the reader's own creation and I have no capacity to do anything about what they choose to create in their understanding and thoughts with the pattern of letters I place in this box.

reply to post by 1nf1del


I don't mean "True enlighment" to be annoying, but the fake pop search for it, is.

App accepted, I'm sorry too, just take a look around. How we are living now. Sad.

Regards

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion

I am enlightened to my strange enjoyment of raw hot dogs dipped in strawberry yogurt a few years ago.

...Thanks. I was eating.

Originally posted by uthu74
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

I don't mean "True enlighment" to be annoying, but the fake pop search for it, is.

App accepted, I'm sorry too, just take a look around. How we are living now. Sad.

Regards

Now I understand what you mean, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this!

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
The difference between my thoughts and perhaps yours are that mine are derived from evidence, logic and argument. It's easy to pass them off as "nonsense," but that is usually done by avoiding critical thought. I am easily convinced if anyone can make a good case for enlightenment. However, not a single person against the OP has attempted to convince me with rationality, only with insult and more unsubstantiated claims.

"You're wrong" just doesn't do it for me.

1) I called nonsense on you pretending you don't really care what others think about this. Not your opinions.
2) You missed the boat on what was being communicated regarding thoughts as it related to the specific point you made (while accusing of not having your arguments addressed).
3) You just called a blue kettle black.
4) Did I say you were "wrong"? What did I actually say?

Offense/Insult is taken, not given.
Namaste.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Ah, yes. Reason and logic. Highly reliable, but susceptible to one crucial flaw: the assumption that all of existence is available to one or more of the five senses. This is not true, as we have already determined. Thus, we require machinery capable of surpassing these frail senses of ours. Unfortunately, this poses another problem. Not only do we have to be aware of these things we cannot perceive of our human flesh, we have to figure out how the machines are supposed to do it.

As you can see, a whole line of complications arises once our basic nature fails to satisfy our curiosity. Which is why your science and "seeing is believing" falls very short of reality. Which, in turn, is why I don't take science at its word when it says, "There's no evidence."

500 years ago, there was no reason to believe in the Higgs Boson. 5,000 years ago, there was no reason to believe that a man would ever leave earth in any extended capacity without guaranteeing his own death. Need I quote Men In Black to you? The line Agent K uses on James Edwards when he is recovering from the brutal experience of learning that he does not, in fact, know everything about Planet Earth - let alone the universe.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
However, not a single person against the OP has attempted to convince me with rationality, only with insult and more unsubstantiated claims.

"You're wrong" just doesn't do it for me.

"You're vain" just doesn't do it for me either.

I for one have not tried to convince you or insult you. I've tried to advise you to let go of binary oppositions and categorizations and social conditioning. Such as rational/irrational. They are just ways that you, that is to say the ego-self, tries to gain control of life, the universe, and everything. Even during your aseticism, you weren't able to let go of control.

Thomas Anderson let go of control and took the red pill. That's how he gained control in a paradoxical sort of way.

Paradox isn't something to be solved or controlled by rationality and definitions and science and categorizations. It's something to be danced in.