The Vanity of Enlightenment

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by BlueMule

 

It seems so. That's ok. I don't deny that by my own criteria, I'm enlightened. By someone else's criteria maybe not.

You've just proven LesMisanthrope's case. Congratulations...at long last, with your timely cooperation, this entire thread and all its blustering as finally been vindicated.

Case closed! Court is adjourned.

If you want to conflate enlightenment with vanity, go ahead.

But until you build your own telescope to see for yourself, I'll consider your attempt to close the case as vanity on your part.

See how easy that is?

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Ahhh! Ok the quoted post as been edited to adjust for the aspects that are contributing to our mismatched perceptions of the intentions behind the writing.

edit on 15-2-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)

Its fun though, isnt it?!

Even when we think we agree, we still see things in a different light. Even when we think we disagree, we may be talking about the exact same thing from different vistas. In realizing it, we start to connect the mountain vistas by the valleys of our choices.

Hmm.. poignant.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by InTheLight
Are we following you around ATS BlueMule?

edit on 15-2-2013 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)

It seems so. That's ok. I don't deny that by my own criteria, I'm enlightened. By someone else's criteria maybe not.

I don't make it a habit of coming right out and saying it though. It's not as if I consider it an acheivement on my part. I'm just an ego-self. Divine Grace deserves the credit. I just got out of its way.

edit on 15-2-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

You may be enlightened in varying fractals of enlightenment, therefore not enlightened in totality, especially if you are avoiding Divine Grace; expect to see and hear the record playing over and over and over.

reply to post by Serdgiam

Of course!

Even when I'm wishing it would be some other way... I wouldn't have it any other way... until I find myself having it another way. wheeeee!

Thank you for helping me more clearly craft the previous posts.

reply to post by InTheLight


Avoiding Divine Grace? I'm not, on the contrary I depend on it!

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Of course!

Even when I'm wishing it would be some other way... I wouldn't have it any other way... until I find myself having it another way. wheeeee!

Thank you for helping me more clearly craft the previous posts.

It has been an honor, truly.

Sometimes when dancing, you just get your toes stepped on constantly. Its nice when that doesnt happen.

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by InTheLight

 

Avoiding Divine Grace? I'm not, on the contrary I depend on it!

I misread your last post. Did you mean you got out of the way of your ego-self?

Originally posted by BlueMule
But until you build your own telescope to see for yourself, I'll consider your attempt to close the case as vanity on your part.

What if he has built it, but he is just looking from a different mountain top?

edit: Right, right, forgot! Only one person at a time. Ill take my ticket and get in line

Originally posted by InTheLight

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by InTheLight

 

Avoiding Divine Grace? I'm not, on the contrary I depend on it!

I misread your last post. Did you mean you got out of the way of your ego-self?

I mean that Divine Grace did the work for me, I am a mere ego-self.

In my opinion no ego-self 'achieves' enlightenment. It's non-ego aspects of the human psyche that acheive it. In religious terms the non-ego aspect is Divine Grace.

So we get to the aspects of language that make it difficult to talk about enlightenment:

People wonder, 'how do I become enlightened'?

I wonder, what do you mean by the word "I"?

Do you mean your ego-self? The ego-self is not the entire human psyche. But its what people think they are.

Enlightenment involves transcending the ego-self. But the ego-self can't transcend itself. Paradox.

Something always has to help the ego-self whether that something is concieved of in religious terms as the Morning Star or secular terms as the unconscious mind. The ego-self has to get out of its way, whatever it is. It has to surrender control.

I tried to tell that to the OP but he doesn't listen too well.

THE WORM'S WAKING

This is how a human being can change:

there’s a worm addicted to eating
grape leaves.
Suddenly he wakes up,
call it grace, whatever, something
wakes him, and he’s no longer
a worm.
He’s the entire vineyard,
and the orchard too, the fruit, the trunks,
a growing wisdom and joy
that doesn’t need
to devour.

-Rumi

Originally posted by Serdgiam

It has been an honor, truly.

Sometimes when dancing, you just get your toes stepped on constantly. Its nice when that doesnt happen.

It can get quite strange out here on the dance floor... but 'tis a good dance even when it's goin' wrong.

Thanks for the webcam feed from your mountain... and your steel toes.

Originally posted by BlueMule
The ego-self is not the entire human psyche.

While I am waiting in line Ill posit some questions that anyone and everyone are free to answer!



I feel that everything derivative of our human physical form is strictly ego. How would you apply that to your own understanding?

Originally posted by Serdgiam
I feel that everything derivative of our human physical form is strictly ego. How would you apply that to your own understanding?

By adjusting your statement as such:

I feel that every thing derivative of form is strictly ego.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


Not a problem, same goes to you my friend. It seems that some truly are dancing out there. Its one of the reasons I enjoy Les' threads so much. They tend to dance wonderfully, if you havent noticed.

And as a note, sometimes one can put a filter on their GoPro to change the image as they see fit. And sometimes, just because they forgot the damn thing was on there in the first place.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
I feel that every thing derivative of form is strictly ego.

Love it! Do you feel that part of a human (being a template, or form itself) is beyond being ego?

I believe that we are more than human, just perceiving things through our current form for whatever reason (if any!). But, all.. production and results of the human body are strictly material.

What do I believe that "more" is? Hard to say, since it would come from the human mind. I suspect it has something to do with magnetism residing outside of space-time. Perhaps a totally different discussion, perhaps not.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Are "we"?

edit on 15-2-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because:

Yes.

We have been moving through it in unison this entire time, no? Just sometimes, variables affect the direction of the fractals.

edit on 15-2-2013 by Serdgiam because: typo of doom

I just wanted to add a bit to this, as I felt led to do so.

"I" am not solely capable of enlightenment, but "we" most certainly are. Where will we flow and grow from here?

Namaste.

Originally posted by Serdgiam

Originally posted by BlueMule
But until you build your own telescope to see for yourself, I'll consider your attempt to close the case as vanity on your part.

What if he has built it, but he is just looking from a different mountain top?

I would ask, what does he mean by the word "he"?

He believes that enlightenment is a matter of choice. I believe that it's a matter of having transpersonal experiences.

Such as those that movies like The Matrix hint at.

If I claim to have had profound transpersonal experiences that can be found throughout the mystical literature of the world, and that the field of comparative mysticism shows that these experiences are not only universal but required for enlightenment, then I'm not just making vain choices. I'm testifying to my experiences and pointing to scholarship.

But a motivated person can interpret all that as mere vanity too, eh?

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Should I link the post in which you, BlueMule, claimed to be enlightened?

Yes please. I can't recall the exact context.

For you:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by BlueMule


It can be interpreted any way one sees fit. It is not in the quantification, but in the process.

If the thread struck such a strong chord, maybe that means something. I know it would to me, but I am not you. We are we, but my mountain top is here and yours is there. It is in realizing the entire mountain range, with its peaks and valleys, and timberlines, and ecosystems that we find this so-called "enlightenment." My mountaintop alone does not make up but a percentage of the whole. But, it is whole in and of itself.

Do you feel you have anything to learn from anyone here or other mountaintops? No need to blow smoke either, as we both know there is the "acceptable" answer for this. I would be much more interested in your honesty though.

reply to post by BlueMule

But until you build your own telescope to see for yourself, I'll consider your attempt to close the case as vanity on your part.

See how easy that is?

Have you taken any pictures with your telescope? Then how do we know you have done it? How do we know it isn't just an ordinary telescope?

You're just slinging that word around because you don't appreciate getting caught in your own web.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Have you taken any pictures with your telescope? Then how do we know you have done it? How do we know it isn't just an ordinary telescope?

What an interesting point AI. All I would add is that "we" is including all of us, including the owner of the telescope. Mine is but a cardboard tube, but it seems to serve the same purpose in limiting my sight to one specific point in the sky.

How is one moment considered so special, without doing it at the expense of other moments?