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The Vanity of Enlightenment

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posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by InTheLight
 



It's now morphed into the OP's reason for starting this thread and why s/he can't accept others' perceived spiritual awareness.


LesMisanthrope never said she would accept others' perceived spiritual awareness. S/he made an argument, allowed the discussion to continue, then used the discussion itself to demonstrate how our perception is largely affected by our vanity, and by extension, our spiritual awareness is affected by vanity as well.

She made a very good case, I think. Vanity, in all truth, is everywhere. She simply pointed it out so as to prove the necessity of "pruning the branches". A thread of humbling observation, in my opinion. If you take offense to it, that's just more evidence of vanity at work.




Do you always post for the OP? LOL this gets better and better.
edit on 14-2-2013 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)


P.S. From the OP's original post: "All of these answers point to personal vanity as the insidious desire behind declarations of enlightenment. Could there be other reasons?"

The OP asked for other reasons, and so we all gave her our perspectives.

edit on 14-2-2013 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by InTheLight
 



Do you always post for the OP? LOL this gets better and better.


I don't post for LesMisanthrope. I've chosen to post beside him/her. Just as I support, question, or refute any member I choose in a discussion, so shall I defend their point of view in their absence - if I understand their stance and choose to argue in favor of its validity. This doesn't mean I solely support the premise of this thread...it just means that I understand with some of the points, especially after observing the progress of this discussion. I might add that your response to my supporting him/her strongly suggests that s/he is more right than wrong.


P.S. From the OP's original post: "All of these answers point to personal vanity as the insidious desire behind declarations of enlightenment. Could there be other reasons?"

The OP asked for other reasons, and so we all gave her our perspectives.


Believing your personal opinion has any value is a form of vanity, InTheLight. Allow me to point out that LesMisanthrope never stated vanity is always a bad thing. Everything has two sides. An important factor in determining the quality and vector of anything is the intention behind it.

LesMisanthrope, what is your gender? My fetish for accuracy has driven me to take measures to ensure that I cover your gender identity to my satisfaction, but I'd rather not have to go to such lengths. Thank you.

Edit: InTheLight, I'd forgotten, but in the OP, LesMisanthrope states those three things that /she sees all seekers of enlightenment having in common. I'd have to say that almost every seeker I've met has displayed, to some degree, at least one of these things. And all three of those things, I believe, constitute some form of vanity. So again, s/he is making a case stating enlightenment endorses vanity. And so far, s/he has made a solid case.

I don't see your argument.
edit on 14-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 08:01 PM
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Believing your personal opinion has any value is a form of vanity, InTheLight. Allow me to point out that LesMisanthrope never stated vanity is always a bad thing. Everything has two sides. An important factor in determining the quality and vector of anything is the intention behind it.

edit on 14-2-2013 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 





- one needs the confirmation of others to justify his way of life and spiritual path. If others agree he is enlightened, he feels better about the choices he has made.
- one seeks power or a feeling of self-gratification from being known as enlightened.
- one desires followers.


Anyone who seeks one or more of the above can never be enlightened in a true sense of reaching their full awareness of their full potential as a human being on earth.
edit on 14-2-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by InTheLight
 


It seems you forgot to add a reply along with quoting my post, but I'd like to redirect your attention to my previous post from which that quote was taken. I added a little bit more, and I'd recommend your taking a closer look at the things I mentioned from the original post in this thread.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


My ALT key was stuck and I didn't notice it, so I could not type a reply.

I'm simply sharing my perceptions and experiences as pertains to my particular spiritual journey, just like most of the other posters in this thread. I normally never discuss my spiritual experiences because it's very personal to me, but I was inspired by others' posts of their experiences, which, by the way, are gifts to us all. Then again, isn't this all about perception of reality and choosing beliefs?

Again, nobody here claims they are enlightened, so none of the OP's original post applies at this stage in the discussion.

Also, as I've never met an individual claiming he/she has attained enlightenment, I have no base from which to argue the vanity claim. Have you OP?



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by InTheLight
 



Again, nobody here claims they are enlightened, so none of the OP's original post applies at this stage in the discussion.


I beg to differ. No one has claimed as such, but their tone implies that they believe they have found a piece. If you have not found it, then how do you know what pieces comprise it?

Every time anyone on this thread states an opinion by which they believe the reader will be assisted in understanding or reaching a state of enlightenment, they are professing their belief that they know or suspect something about enlightenment that applies universally.

I noticed that, and I've gone to lengths to make it known that this is not the case with my views. But LesMisanthrope has pointed out those three behavioral traits that I myself have noticed even regarding the small slivers of sage wisdom passed around and debated in many of the threads found in this particular forum. S/he did not restrict her/his hypothesis to this thread - it was an all-encompassing postulation, wherever philosophy is debated on this website.

You don't have to say something to make it felt.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

You are a riot to observe.


Thank you for dancing the dance.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion
 


No dancing here. I have, at one point or another, disagreed with almost everyone on this thread, including LesMisanthrope. I am at least as independent a thinker as anyone else on this website - guaranteed!

edit on 14-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


What you know of the world is through your perception, and your ability to formulate your own concept of reality is what determines what you are capable of doing in the real, physical world in which you exist.

If you spend your life meditating, then it is easy to believe that the world is what you believe it to be, but if you spend your life exploring this world, you will learn quickly from shared experiences that the physical world is very real.

More importantly, you will find, once you have wallowed in this dimension we are lucky enough to enjoy, that it is far more interesting than what you can find within your own mind.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:49 PM
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In closing I'd like to sum up this thread.

LesMis: I'd like to know your opinion, but I actually don't give a damn because I'm always right. Although it seems that I behave like a self-declared "enlightened moron", I unconditionally don't believe that said state can be real.

Ok, I see now. Paradoxes do exist. LesMis, you ain't foolin' me ...

edit on 14-2-2013 by AllIsOne because: to be polite :-)



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by dominicus
 

Les is just trying to get under people's skins by picking particular words. It's "high brow" trolling but without any wit, just passive aggressive antagonism.


The whole thread is an attempt to feel clever but it still gives a good vehicle for discussion and the observers can tell the real nature of the various posters regardless of loaded words being tossed around... so I still give it a
.
edit on 14-2-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)


Pretty much why I haven't posted anything else in here!



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

Whether you choose to believe me or not... it is your seemingly complete lack of awareness of the dance you are doing that makes it all the more fascinating to observe. I can't thank you enough for your participation in this conversation.

o/

(that's a guy waiting for a "high five" back
)



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 03:14 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

I beg to differ. No one has claimed as such, but their tone implies that they believe they have found a piece. If you have not found it, then how do you know what pieces comprise it?


Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


I use the word enlightenment loosely, but I don't really think of it as enlightenment. I'd much prefer to call it zen, because that word comes much closer to what I feel. An externalized zen, focused outward instead of inward, a unity of the universe and the mind. But it still comes from within.

It's like a lighthouse - the beacon is cast from your mind onto the universe, illuminating it. From there, you either pay attention or you ignore it. As in, turning off the light. Most people have the light turned off. All they care about is their immediate vicinity and whatever whispers they hear in the wind. Some people are more curious, or more desperate, so they turn that light on and see what they can.

Maybe that will make more sense to ATS.



No one likes to read that s##t; and the enlightened ones usually shy away from too much logic, rationality and sound arguments.


Everything I have posted on this thread has been a conclusion arrived at by a process of logic, rationality, and sound arguments. To do otherwise is to make s**t up. That's not what I'm here for.
edit on 13-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


This poster is claiming enlightenment but believes that if he calls it a different name it doesn't count.
He accuses others of making sh1t up but believes his 'enlightenment' is sound.
Thoughout the thread he projects himself as the authority on 'enlightenment'.
edit on 15-2-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Pardon me, but I'm going to take a brief respite from this thread now that the loonies are here to muddle up your good work. Hopefully, you'll be able to extricate the gold from the garbage after they've exhausted their reserves of nonsensical babbling. It was good to exchange ideas with you, I'd like to do it again sometime.


Thanks again!
edit on 13-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


It seems that only you and Les have gold to offer. Isn't that vain?



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 04:17 AM
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reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion
 


If you liked the talk i posted before, you might like this, where you can see Tony telling it straight.
youtu.be...


edit on 15-2-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by InTheLight

Now that I examine the OP's replies in totality, I would say "no" that's not it. I'm not sure what the OP's deep seated need was to start this thread, but others here will claim it's a bait thread. Whatever the OP expected to achieve may be guessed at by rereading the OP's posts, but I'm not that interested.

So... if this is a "bait thread"... How do you define a bait thread? Aren't most threads around ATS about questioning, going further, evolving? How can something evolve if you don't question it? What is it you think ATS is?

Think about that.



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 





This poster is claiming enlightenment but believes that if he calls it a different name it doesn't count.
He accuses others of making sh1t up but believes his 'enlightenment' is sound.
Thoughout the thread he projects himself as the authority on 'enlightenment'.


I project myself as a volunteer Lightworker, willing to help others in any way I can. If that means putting my opinions on the chopping block, then so be it. I have nothing to fear except being wrong, and I won't allow my pride to get in the way of amendment.

If you believe my opinions to be unsound, then please point out the flaws and we can discuss it rationally, instead of just making me out to be an idiot when I'm sure most people here agree that much of what I say makes sense. I've already gotten U2U's requesting a deeper elaboration on some of my notes.

Again, instead of ad hominem attacks, try to point out the flaws in my reasoning.



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by swan001
So... if this is a "bait thread"... How do you define a bait thread? Aren't most threads around ATS about questioning, going further, evolving? How can something evolve if you don't question it? What is it you think ATS is?

Think about that.


No, unfortunately most threads on ATS are not about questioning, going further, evolving. That is why this thread got so many S&Fs.

Threads like these are the goal of ATS, but not the norm.



posted on Feb, 15 2013 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by swan001
So... if this is a "bait thread"... How do you define a bait thread? Aren't most threads around ATS about questioning, going further, evolving? How can something evolve if you don't question it? What is it you think ATS is?

Think about that.

It's a bait thread because LesMisanthrope came in with an a priori assumption and no genuine intention of interacting on a level beyond black and white, thus forcing a confirmation to themselves of their chosen assumption entering in.

That black/white behavior however... created the exact fertile ground for a fantastic discussion on every page regardless of (and because of!) a few poster's effort to be dismissive of others.

The audience wins the most in a thread like this. Without each person playing their part it wouldn't have been able to reach so many places.... many of which are still invisible to even those of us participating in the thread.

So it was a bait thread, but that doesn't mean it's not still a great thread.

edit on 15-2-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)



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