The Vanity of Enlightenment

reply to post by BlueMule


Much like your ideas regarding enlightenment, I would wager your ideas of failure are just as empty and full of deceit. Your vanity is telling you to insult me and you submit to your ego so easily.

You have failed to convince me of anything, save for perhaps your lack of honesty.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Who is your favorite philosopher, if you had to choose?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Much like your ideas regarding enlightenment, I would wager your ideas of failure are just as empty and full of deceit. Your vanity is telling you to insult me and you submit to your ego so easily.

You have failed to convince me of anything, save for perhaps your lack of honesty.

lol

Oh this is priceless. How rare it is to banter with someone so much like myself that I can learn about myself through it. Thank you.

The monomyth cycle is the cycle of transformation that leads to enlightenment. Movies like The Matrix and Star Wars are accurate exaggerations in symbolic form. But you wouldn't know.

Enlightenment isn't about adopting the right beliefs and the right ascetic practices and the right mannerisms and the right virtuous humility. It's about undergoing a cycle. A cycle that irrevocably alters your consciousness. A cycle that can drive you mad. A cycle that can cost you everything you hold dear.

The cycle can be detected throughout world religion and myth because the human psyche is pretty much the same all over the world.

Autostereograms.

Nobody can "show" someone else the 3D image. They have to see it themselves because it is an experience in the moment that no picture can replicate.

People can only describe the variety of ways they've gone about seeing it (which can sometimes become quite annoying to the one trying to see)... but once someone has seen it all doubt is removed.

All the math, all the explanations, all the diagrams... are meaningless until someone sees it for themselves.

Namaste Ya'll!

Wow, thanks! That monomyth cycle explains just about every fantasy novel I've ever read! It's the basic formula for an epic adventure tale!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Wow, thanks! That monomyth cycle explains just about every fantasy novel I've ever read! It's the basic formula for an epic adventure tale!

Yep.

You might want to read The Hero With A Thousand Faces by Campbell. It's a classic. Without it, Lucas couldn't have made Star Wars.

After his success he turned Hollywood onto Campbells book. Since then, Hollywood has been milking it like there's no tomorrow.

In a nutshell it's a kind of fingerprint of enlightenment. I went through my own personal version when I went on my 3-month, thousand mile pilgrimage in 2011, shortly after my kundalini awakening on the 2010 solstice lunar eclipse.

I just wanted to post here from the point of view of a Buddhist practitioner (since 1976).

The word "enlightenment" in ordinary usage in our culture has a meaning associated with everything from 18th century rationalism to the discovery of new consumer products or new ways of doing things. In those usages, anyone could be enlightened and also be vain.

In Buddhism "enlightenment" has a specific technical meaning and can be tested for, technically. Zen koans are an example of a testing regime for "realization" and spiritual attainment. There are other tests and techniques for determining if a person is "enlightened" in the way that Buddhists think of the term.

It's like bench pressing 300 pounds. You can't fake it, at least not to the experts who can also bench press 300 pounds.

Some weight lifters can bench press even heavier weights. Buddhist enlightement is like that too.

Vanity and other "defilements" are very difficult to eradicate, even among the "technically" enlightened. Being enlightened in the Buddhist sense, doesn't necessarily mean you are a comprehensively "good guy".

It is more that you have had a particular realization about human "reality" and have stabilized in that realization.

One has to go a ways up the enlightement ladder before defilements like vanity, or particularly spiritual pride, completely disappear. That's my layperson's understanding of things, anyway, from the Buddhist perspective.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

You seem to be fixed on your own definition and idea what enlightenment is. You declare that it is "entirely unnecessary to give up thought". Maybe by doing exactly that you will find more of "oneself" than you could ever imagine. But since you already "know" what is right, you will be stuck in your own self-created paradox. I see a big circular flaw in your logic.

I don't claim to know anything. I'm merely following the arguments where they take me. Besides, I tried this methodology for many years, I found only abstractions of myself, while the real me was sitting there trying to do away with his thoughts.

I give up thought every night—it's called sleeping. If that's how you wish to go through life, no one is stopping you. But living life asleep seems a drastic measure to take.

If you see a flaw in my logic, and you can show me with logic, you will convince me.

You totally lost me here. So for example you have solved the paradox of the photon in physics? How can something be a wave and a particle at the same time? I guess all the great minds in physics are less-than-thorough?

You cannot solve paradoxes. In logic, a photon is neither a wave nor a particle, it is a photon, which happens to be doing what a photon does. We can merely describe it as acting as if it was a wave and a particle. That doesn't mean it is a wave or a particle, because it is still nonetheless a photon. It appears like a wave or particle. It acts like a wave or particle. But it isn't a wave or particle. It is a photon. No paradox here.

Yes, you don't know much, but you're assuming that your failed attempts mean a method doesn't work at all. That is quite vain if you ask me.

Obviously, everybody has thoughts when they sleep. It's called "dreaming" and happens every night. You might not remember, but a healthy brain does dream.

Your little detour in semantics is cute, but a bit on the childish side. What you're saying is basically a rose is a rose is a rose. I knew that ... lol. But, a single phenomenon that displays contrary properties creates a paradox.

Let me simplify for you: water is wet, but not dry. Dry water does not exist. No paradox. A photon with 0 mass is a particle AND a wave. That is a true paradox because the two properties are mutually exclusive. So in essence light can behave like dry water ...

reply to post by ipsedixit


So in other words, enlightenment can mean almost anything but usually doesn't mean much at all. Thanks for clarifying.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Keep biting those hands.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

So in other words, enlightenment can mean almost anything but usually doesn't mean much at all. Thanks for clarifying.

In general terms enlightenment can mean almost any kind of knowledge or awareness, but in Buddhism it is a technical term which means something very specific, which can be tested for.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

You don't appear to understand what is being communicated to you... but that's ok... it's not important right now.

Thanks for the discussions.

edit on 13-2-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: Added "appear to" to be more clear.

I admire your ability to stay polite. I have lots to learn on this planet!

reply to post by ipsedixit

In general terms enlightenment can mean almost any kind of knowledge or awareness, but in Buddhism it is a technical term which means something very specific, which can be tested for.

Can you tell us what this something is? I know you mentioned zen, but I figure you would have just said that.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Precisely, there is no exact Formula for enlightenment.

Well, there is

There are many different schools of Buddhism, but it is generally accepted that the properties of a Buddha (an enlightened being) are as follows:

The Noble Eightfold Path

www.thebigview.com...

reply to post by AllIsOne

Well, there is

There are many different schools of Buddhism, but it is generally accepted that the properties of a Buddha (an enlightened being) are as follows:

The Noble Eightfold Path

Oh, yeah? And you're saying this will work for everyone? Because that is what an exact formula is. You do it right, and it's guaranteed. Otherwise, it isn't exact.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Even if you "do it yourself"... you will be able to reflect in hindsight how the journey mirrored the principles listed in the link that was provided to you.

That's the point behind how the "Hero's Journey" can spawn seemingly endless numbers of "unique" stories, while still following the same fundamental archetype.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Damn, can you read or you just acting stupid?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Much like your ideas regarding enlightenment, I would wager your ideas of failure are just as empty and full of deceit. Your vanity is telling you to insult me and you submit to your ego so easily.

You have failed to convince me of anything, save for perhaps your lack of honesty.

You already admitted you failed to reach enlightenment, that "idea" is not empty and full of deceit, you also admitted to being vain, all of those that came to help you with the confusion you have as far as spirituality you expected to come in and claim to be "enlightened" that kind of backfired in your face, we are not your enemies, we are your friends trying to lead you to the light until you can see it for yourself, no need to be so hostile!

reply to post by 1nf1del

You already admitted you failed to reach enlightenment, that "idea" is not empty and full of deceit, you also admitted to being vain, all of those that came to help you with the confusion you have as far as spirituality you expected to come in and claim to be "enlightened" that kind of backfired in your face, we are not your enemies, we are your friends trying to lead you to the light until you can see it for yourself, no need to be so hostile!

I'm sorry, but who says LesMisanthrope needs to be your kind of enlightened? You said it, s/he wouldn't know it if s/he saw it. So how does s/he know your way is the right one?

From the looks of it, I would say you're a little off the mark yourself. Maybe you should work on finding your own light before you work on hers/his.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Much like your ideas regarding enlightenment, I would wager your ideas of failure are just as empty and full of deceit. Your vanity is telling you to insult me and you submit to your ego so easily.

You have failed to convince me of anything, save for perhaps your lack of honesty.

lol

Oh this is priceless. How rare it is to banter with someone so much like myself that I can learn about myself through it. Thank you.

The monomyth cycle is the cycle of transformation that leads to enlightenment. Movies like The Matrix and Star Wars are accurate exaggerations in symbolic form. But you wouldn't know.

Enlightenment isn't about adopting the right beliefs and the right ascetic practices and the right mannerisms and the right virtuous humility. It's about undergoing a cycle. A cycle that irrevocably alters your consciousness. A cycle that can drive you mad. A cycle that can cost you everything you hold dear.

The cycle can be detected throughout world religion and myth because the human psyche is pretty much the same all over the world.

edit on 13-2-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Enlightenment is also seeing the light and trying to lead others who don't see it towards it, there is constructive criticism and there is insulting, you are skating a fine line between the two, you shouldn't hit the puppy or scold him, try to make him understand!