Paul's gospel must be accepted

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

As for strike one, Paul is basically saying the same thing Jesus did. You may have bolded that no one can be plucked out of the Father's hand, but you ignore that right before that statement, that no one can be plucked from Jesus hand either.

I've already explained in this thread why Jesus told everyone that the Father was greater than he. It was because Jesus was in the flesh. God the Father pulled the strings of Jesus while he was here on earth, therefore, making God the Father greater than Jesus during the time he was here on earth.

As for strike two, Paul may have used the term "father" (lower case) to show that he loved them like a father because he would not only instruct them in Christ, but love them in Christ like a real father would. Paul never asked the Corinthians to call him father, now did he? Jesus said not to have anyone CALL you father.

As for strike three, Paul was talking about the trespasses against God, not man. The Lord's prayer mentions both. We are to ask God for forgiveness against our trespasses against him just like we are to ask for forgiveness from other men for the ones we commit against them. The blood of Jesus allows us forgiveness from the trespasses we make against both of them.

edit on 14-2-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

See what I mean... you'll just try to explain it away instead accepting the obvious contradiction... but whatever...

Believe in Paul... I will not.

I believe that is what it means by "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" (as was pointed out earlier by Mark 3:30).

Mark 3:30 is narration from the author of the book.... obviously

IF they said "He had an unclean spirit" I believe Matthew 12 covers that issue...

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:, but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So whos correct?

The author of Mark... Or the words of Jesus?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

You left out the precise explanation of the unforgivable sin...

(See Mark 3:29-30)

edit on 14-2-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Nope I didn't... read the above reply to Deetermined

This is to point out to Akragon that Jesus knew He was deity.

Im not denying Jesus knew he was A deity... but again, not equal to his Father...

The apocryphon of John gives a better explaination of who Jesus was exactly in my humble opinion

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Akragon

So whos correct?

The author of Mark... Or the words of Jesus?

What are you talking about? They both mean the same thing.

It was one thing to condemn Jesus' actions. It's another to say that the spirit inside of him came from devil.

To doubt Jesus was forgivable. To go as far as to call him a man filled with the devil was another.

Even Jesus' disciples doubted him at one time or another, but they never thought, suspected, or accused him of receiving his power from Satan.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

So whos correct?

The author of Mark... Or the words of Jesus?

What are you talking about? They both mean the same thing.

It was one thing to condemn Jesus' actions. It's another to say that the spirit inside of him came from devil.

To doubt Jesus was forgivable. To go as far as to call him a man filled with the devil was another.

Even Jesus' disciples doubted him at one time or another, but they never thought, suspected, or accused him of receiving his power from Satan.

In both cases someone "speaks a word against him"...

You're just splitting hairs here...

honestly IF Jesus knew exactly who he was and where he came from... why would he care what others said about him.

I don't get why you people can't see obvious issues... but again whatever

Believe what you will... in any case my blasphemy theory is exactly that... A theory

reply to post by Akragon


In the end, we're all going to be judged for everything we say anyway...

Matthew 12:36-37

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

reply to post by Deetermined


According to paul you're judged by faith...

reply to post by Akragon


We'll be judged by faith first and then judged by our words and actions as to what position we're awarded in heaven.

That's where the verses about those who were first on earth may be least in the kingdom of heaven and vice versa come in.

Here's what the Bible tells us. Basically, that those who practice what they preach will be considered mighty in the kingdom of heaven and those who don't will be considered least.

Matthew 5:19

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
Alrighty...

Though I don't see a point... you'll likely just explain it away just like everyone else tries to..

Paul.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Jesus

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



Strike one...

Paul

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel..



Jesus

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Strike two...

Paul

Eph.1
[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace



The lords prayer?

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Strike three!!

Yerrr outa there Paul!!!

I’ve been struggling with Paul myself, but was already aware of the “call no man Father”, contradiction, but didn’t realize about the last one, you posted above. Although a lot would seem to depend on what the context of Paul’s words are/mean, but in a few cases, I’m finding it hard to defend his position.

Do you have a thread on this…?


- JC

reply to post by Akragon


Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by Deetermined


According to Paul, faith is the basis of judgement, those who do not have faith are sent to hell, what they say does not matter. So Jesus saying nothing about being judged on faith means Paul added that doctrine in himself in my opinion.

But you can continue to hold on to a murderers words like they're from Jesus himself if you want, but I choose to acknowledge those contradictions that you ignore.

reply to post by Deetermined


Who said anything about Jesus being filled with the devil?

I say that Jesus never rose from the dead, that is a word against Jesus, the Son of Man. Him rising from the dead is the basis behind faith, which Paul describes as being the thing in which judgement is based on. If Jesus said it was okay, then why does Paul say that not believing he rose from the dead is unforgivable? Am I forgiven as Jesus said, or am I condemned as Paul said? Contradiction much?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So Jesus saying nothing about being judged on faith means Paul added that doctrine in himself in my opinion.

Read through the rest of the thread and you'll see what Jesus had to say about faith.

reply to post by Deetermined


I know Jesus talked about faith, I'm saying Jesus didn't mean it in the same way as Paul does. Paul perverted the meaning of faith, saying it meant faith in Jesus' resurrection. That's not the way Jesus was using it, he never mentioned his death while talking about faith.

In what context did the OT use the word faith if not about Jesus' death? Faith is a pretty common word throughout the OT. What Jesus meant by faith is not what you think it is, you have been given the wrong interpretation in my opinion.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Deetermined

 

I know Jesus talked about faith, I'm saying Jesus didn't mean it in the same way as Paul does.

Paul perverted the meaning of faith, saying it meant faith in Jesus' resurrection. That's not the way Jesus was using it, he never mentioned his death while talking about faith.

John 11:25

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In what context did the OT use the word faith if not about Jesus' death? Faith is a pretty common word throughout the OT. What Jesus meant by faith is not what you think it is, you have been given the wrong interpretation in my opinion.

John 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

reply to post by Deetermined


And where does he say the word faith? I don't believe he died and rose from the dead, but I do have faith in who he said he was. He was the resurrection, and so are you and I. We resurrected when we were literally born again. We died in a previous life then "resurrected" into this new body, and it will happen over and over again forever. Why would Jesus say he was the resurrection in present tense? If he hadn't resurrected yet, he would have used past tense.

You have a skewed perception on what the word faith means. I guess if a man has faith that his wife won't cheat on him, that means he has faith in a guy who lived 2,000 years ago? No, there are many different types of faith, not just in his death for 3 days.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

And where does he say the word faith?

What do you think the word "believe" means?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

We resurrected when we were literally born again. We died in a previous life then "resurrected" into this new body, and it will happen over and over again forever.

That may be what you believe, but that's not what the Bible says.

Why would Jesus say he was the resurrection in present tense? If he hadn't resurrected yet, he would have used past tense.

If it wasn't for Jesus being the first to resurrect, none of us would be resurrecting after this life is over. This is why he says he is the resurrection. He paved the way for it to happen.

reply to post by Deetermined


The bible is a book written by men, meaning it is prone to manipulation. There is tons of evidence that points toward it being manipulated, you just choose to ignore it and pretend it's not there. Jesus' teachings were on reincarnation, his reference to being born again is proof of that in my opinion. And so do other teachings of his, especially his parables.

reply to post by newnature


Can I ask you something with all due respect? Why do you tell people this paul gospel story? You actually believe the stuff your saying? It applies to nothing and has no effect on the world around you. It effects Only You because your willing to believe it. And Jesus dying and coming back ? Please....If you preach rules and punishment , and claim to be the true word do you realize the responsability your putting on your shoulders when you grow enough to realize it was all hogwash?
This is why Athiests are popping up everywhere. Religion of any form is nonsense regardless of what youve been taught. Seriously now, think about it. Do you honestly even want a religion that would treat you less then you deserve? Besides ,if you believe one story, you gotta believe in them all. Why not just believe in yourself and shake off the faith based mind control and re-claim your spirits right to think for yourself. Do yourself a favor.I mean no disrespect and I care about your soul even though I dont know you.Never surrender your will in Gods name. Good luck to you.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The bible is a book written by men, meaning it is prone to manipulation.

And yet it's still considered to have the most copies and be the most accurately preserved of any and all ancient documents even though they are written in several languages. A little research will prove that most changes/inaccuracies were linguistic ones that didn't change the meaning of the texts.