'I would have destroyed Dresden again': Bomber Harris was unrepentant over German city raids

reply to post by ollncasino


Well, that's christians and the english for you. They bomb the heck out of civilians and then have a lovely chaplain waiting for them to comfort them when they return from their mass murder spree of setting women and children ablaze.
Sadly I don't have some racist propoganda site to link to as I know how much you love those, but keep believing what you read in the daily mail, it all boils down to the same thing

Originally posted by RizeorDie
I watch more Youtube than the average person being that my Job requires me to do, thus I am exposed to all sorts of cultures

Dude .. watching Youtube clips is NOT exposing you to all sorts of cultures.
it's just watching Youtube clips.

I completely fail to see how you justify the bombing of civilians,.

1 - The civilians in Germany backed their war machine completely. THEY backed the bombings of civilians in London and elsewhere. THEY had no problem with it. THEY were part of the war machine.

2 - In order to get the people to stop backing their war machine and to break their war spirit, the people had to be given what they were dishing out to others. Bring the horrors home to them and show them what they were doing. It worked.

3 - Germany started the war. Others finished it. If they couldn't take the heat, they shouldn't have started the fire.

4 - England was attacked by Germany. The civilians butchered. Men, who would have been happy to stay home with their families, were instead torn away and died in battle fighting the invading Germans. England had every right to do whatever it took to end the attacks against them. It was self defense and their right.

There .. does that help spell it out for you??

Originally posted by skalla

Well, that's christians and the english for you. They bomb the heck out of civilians and then have a lovely chaplain waiting for them to comfort them when they return from their mass murder spree of setting women and children ablaze.

Your location is set as blighty (your introduction posts said you were British), yet you clearly have no affection for the English or Christians for that matter.

Dresden was helping the German war effort as outlined in the OP. The Germans could have surrendered but they choose to fight on.

Originally posted by skalla
Sadly I don't have some racist propoganda site to link to as I know how much you love those, but keep believing what you read in the daily mail, it all boils down to the same thing

The DailyMail is a racist propaganda site?

You should get out more.

Nonetheless, an interesting ad hominem drive by attack on the English, Christians and myself on your part.

It is just a pity you feel unable to debate the issue on its merits and are reduced to making personal attacks.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Bomber Harris, the RAF commander who ordered the destruction of Dresden towards the end of WWII stated, in a lost interview made in 1977, that he would do it again.

The attack was widely criticised because of 'blanket bombing' which hit civilian areas as well as military targets - killing thousands of innocents.

...chief commander of the Bomber Command tells his interviewer, Air Vice Marshal Tony Mason, that he would do it again if he had to.

He said: 'If I had to have the same time again I would do the same again, but I hope I wouldn’t have to.'

Sir Arthur then adds: 'I hope it’s been of some use, for future generations in keeping them out of these riots. It never does anybody any good.'

During the interview, Mason discusses how many felt the Dresden attack was 'a city too far'.

However Harris stood his ground saying: 'The bombers kept over a million fit Germans out of the German army… Manning the anti-aircraft defences; making the ammunition, and doing urgent repairs, especially tradesmen.'

D aily Mail

I have to agree with Harris. Germany had invaded France, Belgium, Holland, Poland and Russia. It had started an indiscriminate bombing campaign over London in 1940. For much of the war, the only way for the British to hit back at the Germans was to bomb their cities - a thing the Germans had already done themselves to civilian targets.

Bomber Command veteran Doug Radcliffe, 89, who is now secretary of the Bomber Command Association, backed his former commander.

He told the Daily Express: 'Our raids meant there were 10,000 88mm anti-aircraft guns pointing up to the sky instead of at our troops and the Russians.

'Dresden was a major centre for the manufacture of opticals, such as gun sights and binoculars.'

He added: 'After Dresden we lost another 700 bombers, and London was being hit by V2s which nobody could fight against.'

D aily Mail

The Germans were hitting London with V2s when Dresden was being destroyed and Dresden was itself an important centre of optics manufacture.

I have also read of two important reasons for bombing Dresden

1. It served to warn the Russians what of the power of bomber command to help put the Russians off of driving the Allies into the channel (they were vastly superior in numbers to the allies and were technically superior in terms of tanks and arguably aircraft).

2. It bomber command campaign against German cities served to teach the Germans the lesson that making a habit of invading other countries was not entirely without consequence. In the space of 70 years Germany had invaded France three times. After the devastation of Germany in 1943-1945, the Germans had little appetite to invade Western Europe a 4th time.

It should also be remembered that Bomber Harris was only carrying out British government policy. He did it well. Towards the end of WWII, Bomber Command could mount 1,000 bomber raids against German cities, effectively destroying their ability to contribute to the German war effort for a significant period of time.

edit on 11-2-2013 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

Reading paragraph number 1, I read somewhere that the Russian soldiers when seeing the destruction of Dresden were told Russian artillery had doe all the damage!

reply to post by ollncasino


The implicit irony of my post was unsurprisingly missed by you, as are your de facto ad hominem attacks on all islamic posters in your use of "religion of peace".
And yae, I am happily british, it does not equate to me having to hate non brits and supporting the murder of innocents though. I would go on, but ironically I am out and my bb has a fairly small screen and the carvery is calling my name.

Originally posted by skalla

The implicit irony of my post was unsurprisingly missed by you, as are your de facto ad hominem attacks on all islamic posters in your use of "religion of peace".

Yet you launched an attack on Christians in your post above and thought nothing of it!

Clearly irony is not your strong point.

Originally posted by skalla

Well, that's christians and the english for you. They bomb the heck out of civilians and then have a lovely chaplain waiting for them to comfort them when they return from their mass murder spree of setting women and children ablaze.

Could I suggest that if you wish to debate Islamic extremism, you do it on a thread discussing Islamic extremism?

Originally posted by skalla
And yae, I am happily british, it does not equate to me having to hate non brits and supporting the murder of innocents though.

How exactly would you have stopped the Germans in WWII?

reply to post by ollncasino


I attacked no one, I simply used irony to illustrate a point that still apparantly evades you. As to how I would have stopped ze nazis, halting the repulsive and hateful demonisation of a group of fellow humans would have been a good start and may have removed mr h's mandate long before war. After all, its the ages old tale of using ignorance and prejudice to manipulate those without the wit to see through it, so that they can do the dirty work of those pulling their strings.
Bombings over england only solidified the peoples resolve, these kind of actions are infact counter-productive, observe how the numbers of civilians killed by western forces in iraq or afghanistan lead to new recruits to those who would oppose them.

he incinerated children, and was still unrepentant so late in his life- what a charmer

Originally posted by skalla

As to how I would have stopped ze nazis, halting the repulsive and hateful demonisation of a group of fellow humans would have been a good start and may have removed mr h's mandate long before war.

After all, its the ages old tale of using ignorance and prejudice to manipulate those without the wit to see through it, so that they can do the dirty work of those pulling their strings.

So in other words, beyond writing a strongly worded letter to the Guardian, you don't have any ideas?

Originally posted by skalla
Bombings over england only solidified the peoples resolve, these kind of actions are infact counter-productive, observe how the numbers of civilians killed by western forces in iraq or afghanistan lead to new recruits to those who would oppose them.

The Germans bombing England certainly did increase British peoples' resolve to bomb them back.

"They sowed the wind, now they are going to reap the whirlwind"

Sir Arthur Harris, 1st Baronet

if there is a hell, he must surely be in it

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd
if there is a hell, he must surely be in it

Perhaps you are correct. Still, bombing was the only way for the British to hit back at the Germans for much of the war.

Let's also not forget that while the British were hitting back by bombing German cities, the Germans were killing over 20 million Russians.

WWII Casualties

There were no revolts by the German population against Hitler and the Nazis. The German people followed Hitler into the Abyss.

I'm interested to learn about this interview, thank you OP.

My feelings are mixed. Much of Europe had been liberated by February 1945 and yet the Nazis still refused to capitulate. They refused to contemplate surrender, instead they practised a scorched earth policy of destroying their own bridges, rail lines, factories as they retreated. German civilians - old men, boys, the infirm - who refused to join the German home defence forces were summarily executed. So it's a bit rich to criticise the English and US air force for destroying buildings, marshalling yards, airfields and killing civilians when the German authorities were basically doing exactly the same thing.

My concern is how ruthless we were, how well thought out, how planned, how technlogical the raids were. We made killing into an art form, we made destruction almost effortless. Choose an untouched, beautiful almost innocent city. Create diversionary raids to confuse the Luftwaffe civil defense forces. Pathfinders to light up the city drawing more bombers like moths to a flame. Take advantage of how the city was built, timber being used in the construction of so many buildings, Incendiary bombshells to set Dresden on fire, monstrous earthquake bombs to fracture gas pipes and water mains both making the fires worse and possible to extinguish.

And then a few hours later as these wretched people emerged from their shelters to find hell on earth, desperate to save themselves, their families and their city, it was at that very moment of worst horror and confusion that their suffering was made absolute by another air raid.

It's that they were so thoroughly, professionally overwhelmed that I can't stomach. They didn't have a chance. That's not to say that Harris was wrong in what he did, I'm confident he and his men acted in good faith. But still I'm uneasy, for me it's one of those issues where the certainties of black and white just become gray.

Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
I'm interested to learn about this interview, thank you OP.

It's that they were so thoroughly, professionally overwhelmed that I can't stomach. They didn't have a chance. That's not to say that Harris was wrong in what he did, I'm confident he and his men acted in good faith. But still I'm uneasy, for me it's one of those issues where the certainties of black and white just become gray.

For much of the war, up to 1942, bomber command were suffering more dead aircrew than the Germans were suffering casualties on the ground.

What is of note is that German civilian deaths from the bombing only ranged perhaps between 375,000 to 422,000 (German Casaulties in WWII), so the extent of civilian deaths can be over stated. On the other hand, the Germans killed at least 12.7 million Russian civilians and a large proportion of the 2 million Polish civilians deaths (Casualties in WWII).

In other words, for every 1 German civilian killed by allied bombing, the Germans killed at least 35 civilians elsewhere in their attacks.

I doubt we will find many Russian or Polish people who condemn Bomber Harris.

reply to post by ollncasino


Well that's the rub. We have the luxury of taking this one event in isolation, for Harris and his men (not forgetting those brave USAAF aircrews) fhis was just one event of many, those in charge had the broad expanses of a whole world war to prosecute, for them Dresden was almost trivia.

Click here for more information.

I dont understand how anyone would justify the killing of civilians and children and babies in order to save other civilians.

If someone breaks into my home and kills my family, I will not return the favor by doing the same to them, I will find those responsible and kill them, but I will NOT harm their innocent family members and children

some people here are sick minded, this is what happens when you spend too much time on the internet and conspiracy websites instead of socializing with the world outside, you lose emotions.

Of course he would. Military people are drones and if they don't do as they are told then they wouldn't have a job.

That said Its a shame that he or anyone else who acts like this are not aware enough to see that innocent people including women and children don't deserve to die for the actions of greedy politicians bankers and elite families.

Originally posted by RizeorDie

you are the biggest ignorant narrow minded brainwashed sheep on ATS.

Being an intelligent and sometimes coherent poster, I still fail to see your need to be abrasive to a poster who made a coherent and factually accurate post.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
go read research 'Causes of World War 2 and why' then come back here and blab your garbage,

I searched Amazon but I couldn't find the book you referred to.

Originally posted by RizeorDie

England declared war on germany on September 3rd 1939

Besides the fact that the UK and France declared war in response to Germany's attack on Poland, have you heard of the phoney war?

The Phoney War

For a 7 month period after war was declared, the UK and France sat on the defensive in France and did not attack Germany.

Then Germany launched the blitzkrieg.

Here we go again. All sitting in our comfie living rooms. We are worlds away from the 1930’s and none of us have any clue as to the impact of WW2 or understanding of a world engaged in total war, where every part of the national economy was directed towards a war effort in a fight for life. My two grandfathers fought in WW2 and my parents lived through it, one as an evacuee from the bombed cities.

Already in this thread we’ve had the “Hitler was a victim” and Great Britain was some sort of warmonger. Doubtlessly (because it’s a common theme in ATS) someone will start to fart on that it was the Jews that did it, etc... We have people who base their worldview on YouTube and have probably never tried to read a history book!

The fact is the allied bombing offensive in Europe and the Far East by the allies was a campaign to win a war at all costs and vise versa by the Axis. The allies did not have the benefit of GPS guided munitions.

Of course the bombing was two-way. Nazi Germany and the Italians in Europe merrily engaged in bombing civilian areas, as did the Soviets and the Japanese. Malta was the most heavily bombed places on the planet. As Bomber Harris said...

The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.

All credit to the sacrifice of RAF Bomber Command who suffered 55,700 killed and their USAAF brothers. Defeating facism was no joke. War today is just too clean.

Regards

Originally posted by ollncasino

Besides the fact that the UK and France declared war in response to Germany's attack on Poland, have you heard of the phoney war?

The Phoney War

For a 7 month period after war was declared, the UK and France sat on the defensive in France and did not attack Germany.

Then Germany launched the blitzkrieg.

France and Britain were in the process of isolating Germany, Their next stop was Norway, Then it would have been the Balkans, and then Italy. Until Germany starves much like WW1

Its an old game that Germany played and they werent about to play it again.

So Germany went on the offensive, shock and blitzkrieg they ended the war with france in weeks keeping causalities low by avoiding trench warfare and all the death and diseases that come with it.