Paul: Rome's version of the Trojan Horse, page 9

reply to post by Snsoc

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I didn't say priest. The Book of James says to confess your sins one to another (5:16). Are we going to say that James is a liar too? Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of me" Luke 22: 19. The "this" refers to the partaking of the bread and wine. I accept Paul's conversion because it's obvious that his words are inspired by God. And yes, days are a unit of time. But they do not mean the exact same thing. You cannot substitute one for the other in every case.

Circular reasoning, again, you have discounted the many good points that point to Pauls duplicity
You accept Pauls conversion because "inspired by God"
" it's obvious that his words are inspired by God" Obvious to everyone who wants to uphold the faith and not scratch below the surface
The Roman Emperor Constantine decided what books would be included in the bible at 297 AD, nothing obvious about the established Cannon at all when one looks deeper into it

reply to post by EnochWasRight

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Then why does that "love" that overcame the law still send people to suffer forever for using their god given rights and logic? God would not enable us to have logic only to command us to ignore it.

If Paul is thrown out, Jesus' message still stays the same: love one another. That's all Jesus wanted, love, not worship for him. Why can't you see that? Lol

Paul is right because HE says so in the bible, right? It CAN'T be a lie if it's in the bible! Wrong.

Originally posted by TheConstruKctionofLight
reply to post by Snsoc

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Jesus said the Pharisees were hypocrites, not church-goers. In fact, he was referring to synagouges, not churches. You should stay away from synagouges, as we are no longer under the Law



See what you did there...Jesus was commenting on the hypocrites...there were no church goers at the time there was no church...full stop...circular argument

I will concede that I used circular reasoning there. Point to you. However, Jesus did say 'Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also." I don't think people should stop gathering in his name. They can do thier praying at home or go in seperate rooms, etc. in order not to violate the part you were speaking of.

reply to post by Snsoc

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Two or three people is not equal to the hundreds of people that go to a specific church every week.

You agree that your logic was faulty, yet you still fall back on the same faulty logic.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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You are misuderstanding me. What I am saying is that there is value in gathering together in Christ. I think what Jesus meant is, "Wherever there are (at least) two or three gathered in my name, there I am also." He didn't seem to have a problem with 13 people at the Last Supper, did He?

But perhaps he was being literal. Maybe these churches should break up into units of 2 or 3 people. It would certainly remove the temptation for pastors to accumulate so much wealth.

reply to post by TheConstruKctionofLight

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Okay. Let me back up.

I think there is a difference between being inspired by God and taking dictation from God. Paul's letters seem inspired by God. He talks about love, just as Jesus supposedly did. But do I think that Paul sat there like a holy secretary, and wrote down everything right from God's mouth? No. I believe his own writings reflect this. What I think happened is that he had or thought he had a vision in which he had a revelation about the fullness of the New Covenant, the message started by Jesus, and for the rest of his life, he tried, the best that he could as a mortal man, to explain it.

Now you can take to approaches to this. One is to say, "Aha, you admit that he is not giving us the exact word of God, so I can throw it all out." or you can say, "I'm going to try and use Paul's words to seek and understand God better." I've chosen the second one, because I think there is value in it.

On a slightly different point from the OP:

The OP seems to believe that when Jesus said, "You must be born again," He meant reincarnation. I can't argue with this, because all of my arguments cite Paul, whose authority he (the OP) doesn't accept. However, by stating that Jesus taught reincarnation, you have accepted some premises:

That Jesus was a real person

That he said "You must be born again."

And how do we know these things? The Gospel of John. You're taking John's word for it, that he actually met Jesus and Jesus said these things. There is no proof. It's hearsay. John is no more credible than Paul.

Now I understand that this is a type of circular reasoning. I cannot say, "John is truthful, therefore so is Paul," or "Paul is a liar, therefore so is John." But it is selective reasoning on the part of someone who wants to say, "John was telling the truth, but Paul wasn't." Because they both have the same unconfirmed source (The Bible.)

I understand that the OP wants to believe that Jesus taught reincarnation, maybe because it puts a face on "Eastern" philosphy that Christians will accept. But you don't like Paul's teaching, for various reasons.But people can't get on my case for believing Paul without evidence, when you they to believe John without evidence. I'm assuming, of course that you accept the Gospel of John as valid. Maybe the OP was simply to show the Bible contradicts itself. But the premise of the OP seemed to be "Jesus was cool, but I don't like this Paul guy." So, if you want to be honest, either change the OP premise, or he should admit that he doesn't know if Jesus even existed or taught anything.

reply to post by Snsoc

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You do realize Paul killed followers of Jesus, right? What makes you think he couldn't have stolen documents of Jesus' teachings from those he killed then incorporated Jesus' teachings into his letters in order to come off as holy when he really wasn't?

Rome was famous for attacking groups of people then forcing them to defect to their side otherwise they'd be tortured then killed. Whether they did or didn't accept to defect, Rome would adopt their customs then manipulate them to fit their needs.

Paul was a Roman who killed true Christians then turned around and used their teachings for a completely different purpose. I think it's pretty safe to assume that it is a possibility that that is exactly what happened.

I accept John's gospel for the most part, at least when it comes to what Jesus said. What I don't accept in his gospel are the miracles and resurrection. Anything within the book(s) that is unnatural, I reject. The same goes for the other gospels.

reply to post by Snsoc

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Yes, it's very natural. As I said earlier, souls are pure energy, they cannot be created nor destroyed. Just as the trees on Earth die then "resurrect" every spring, we also die then resurrect into another body. Everything else in nature works in cycles, why should it be any different for life?

Having a place where people suffer forever without hope for redemption is unnatural, so is a man walking on water and splitting two fish between 5,000 people. When's the last time you saw those two things happen? I'm guessing you haven't? Because they're impossible.

Is it only a coincidence that nothing like those things have been recorded ever since we have had virtually instant access to any information like we do now? I don't think so.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Snsoc

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Yes, it's very natural. As I said earlier, souls are pure energy, they cannot be created nor destroyed. Just as the trees on Earth die then "resurrect" every spring, we also die then resurrect into another body. Everything else in nature works in cycles, why should it be any different for life?

Having a place where people suffer forever without hope for redemption is unnatural, so is a man walking on water and splitting two fish between 5,000 people. When's the last time you saw those two things happen? I'm guessing you haven't? Because they're impossible.

Is it only a coincidence that nothing like those things have been recorded ever since we have had virtually instant access to any information like we do now? I don't think so.

edit on 16-2-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

But the trees don't DIE, do they? If anything, the cycle apparent is that a tree is dead in winter just like men (denoted as trees in scripture) are DEAD IN SIN - physically alive but spiritually dead.

A dead tree doesnt EVER come back to life, does it? The fantasy of reincarnation is from the delusion that we are immortal and the serpent's lie "surely you will not die". And too this end, you perceive the tree to be dead in winter when the truth states that it is alive.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Snsoc

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Having a place where people suffer forever without hope for redemption is unnatural......

edit on 16-2-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Its unnatural to MAN'S thinking. Redemption is here now, so why do you dismiss it and instead lament that it is somehow unfair that Our Creator would eventually remove that offer of redemption? It's available to you today, but yet that is not good enough for you. Why? What inside of you is fighting Him? What inside of you fights even your Creator having sole authority to judge you? What inside of you insists that your Creator is in the wrong and that you, a mere human, knows better? The entire scripture chronicles that it is MAN fighting against His Creator, not the other way round.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

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Thanks for reinforcing mt point. We never really die, we're only reborn.

God also said that we had become like him. I guess you ignore that part though.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

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Then why does that "love" that overcame the law still send people to suffer forever for using their god given rights and logic? God would not enable us to have logic only to command us to ignore it.

If Paul is thrown out, Jesus' message still stays the same: love one another. That's all Jesus wanted, love, not worship for him. Why can't you see that? Lol

Paul is right because HE says so in the bible, right? It CAN'T be a lie if it's in the bible! Wrong.

I do see it, just from a different frame of reference. There is no paradox here. "The English word "worship" is actually a contraction of worth-ship i.e. worship means to honor what is honorable." LINK Is there a difference between the Catholic Church and idol worship and simply valuing the name (Character) of God within the ONLY man that met that ideal? Ideal and Idol are far different things. Paul's message was the same as all of the Bible. The Old Testament was a demonstration of what is required to please God. The New Testament was a demonstration of pleasing God. The next thing on the timeline is giving us the same ability and power, yet also giving a Holy Spirit Consciousness to mankind to do the same. We can't do it apart from the Blood (DNA) of Christ. It's an upgrade.

To answer your question: "Then why does that "love" that overcame the law still send people to suffer forever for using their god given rights and logic? God would not enable us to have logic only to command us to ignore it. "

You are thinking in a linear way. Think of the various paths we take to find the answer. It's not a straight line and God could not create us in perfection. If He did, we would simply be Him looking at Himself in a created mirror. Instead, we must experience the entire story of good and evil in a place where our soul cannot be harmed. By this path, we become unique like snowflakes. The reflecting points we gather along the way are then used to see clearly when we are back in perfection, rising from the chaos. The robe we get back from God represents our journey, only the wool that was taken from the sheep to make the robe is washed white as snow. God allows it because it is good for children to touch the hot oven door. Unless they do, nothing is learned. We can only be like God, never Him. To be unique, we must rise from it by our own labor. This is true, but Christ is the ONLY thing that takes us back to the Father. God sees us through the one we are in.

Why do you find yourself in a place full of errors, feeling like a hall of mirrors? Why do you see a reflection every time you see truth? The light leaves the source, weakens, spreads out and then reveals what it hits. When it hits our minds, a shadow is cast. Simply look for the thing the light hits. Paul is one of those things the light hits. Divide the light from the darkness. There cannot be an illuminated object apart from the shadow that follows it. The entire job of the human species is to rise above the darkness. Simple logic is not enough. You need to look deeply into the abstract truth that you see behind the shadow. No matter where you look, that revealed truth is there.

You are focused on the shadows of the Bible. Look deeper. You can see the same message in any movie you watch. The true word is the one that arises into the world from each heart that beats. We all express the light in one way or another. It's not about you, or me, or Paul or what anyone else has done. It's about what has been done for us. If you live a life of blame, you are merely denying the cause. If you live your life as the cause of good to others, you are embracing the truth and living it.

Read it from the Dhammapada. Like I said, it's everywhere you look. I can find tons of error in Buddha. I can also see a great light shining. Both light and shadow are there.

Chapter 1 - Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
You too shall pass away.
Knowing this, how can you quarrel?

LINK

In the end, we can't know the final truth behind any of it. We CAN find that final truth THROUGH it all, but never by fact. It's always faith. Judge not and you won't be judged. Deny ignorance using the truth. This part is not judgment. It may be ignorance of your own. Someone else comes along eventually and denies it. It's clear that Paul looked with eyes to see. His message was love. His message was clear that mankind cannot rise to this perfection alone. We've tried that for 6000 years.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

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It is unfair! Tell me, how does 75-80 years on this planet equal to forever in hell? How is that fair? How do they even compare?

To throw someone in a cell and throw away the key is unfair, completely unfair. I thought god was supposed to be fair? So how does 75-80 years equal eternal torture?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WhoKnows100

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It is unfair! Tell me, how does 75-80 years on this planet equal to forever in hell? How is that fair? How do they even compare?

To throw someone in a cell and throw away the key is unfair, completely unfair. I thought god was supposed to be fair? So how does 75-80 years equal eternal torture?

You are failing to see what Christ said. "You must be born again." Light reveals what it hits. Your one life now is not the entire story. Your robe and crown now are reflective of the last life you lived. You always have a choice to build a better robe and crown for the next life. Nothing is gained unless it is earned. Your final salvation, however, will not require your efforts. That gift was earned by Christ. Your works are for you and others only. Christ is that light that takes us home and translates us back to God. It's a process known as involution and evolution.

Involution and Evolution

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WhoKnows100

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It is unfair! Tell me, how does 75-80 years on this planet equal to forever in hell? How is that fair? How do they even compare?

To throw someone in a cell and throw away the key is unfair, completely unfair. I thought god was supposed to be fair? So how does 75-80 years equal eternal torture?

Did Buddha know?

Choices:

In him there in no yesterday,
No tomorrow,
No today.
Possessing nothing,
Wanting nothing.
He is full of power.
Fearless, wise, exalted.
He has vanquished all things.
He sees by virtue of his purity.
He has come to the end of the way,
Over the river of his many lives,
His many deaths.
Beyond the sorrow of hell,
Beyond the great joy of heaven,
By virtue of his purity.
He has come to the end of the way.
All that he had to do, he has done.
And now he is one.

Atonement with God is through Christ. Atonement is At One Ment.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

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Those are the words of the Buddha or someone else?

Jesus is not the only way, I'm sorry that you can't see that.

You say that there are many paths yet you believe Jesus is the only way. You're contradicting yourself again.

Take a look at this link: Doublethink

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

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Those are the words of the Buddha or someone else?

Jesus is not the only way, I'm sorry that you can't see that.

You say that there are many paths yet you believe Jesus is the only way. You're contradicting yourself again.

Take a look at this link: Doublethink

edit on 16-2-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You must be born again.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

The wind blows where it pleases. You do not choose Christ. The Father prepares you to meet the Son.

John 6

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

The Son knows all hearts. He refuses to entrust Himself to anyone before they are ready. He knows them already. It's good that we seek God, but it's better when that voice is calling us home. When the time is right, the voice calls. You must be born again. Baptism is the symbolism for immersion into the water.

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

As I linked in a previous post, it's involution and evolution.

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)

12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

Involution is turning in on one's self (within). Compare this to Luke 17:

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

What is salvation. It's being salvaged from the lower kingdom into the kingdom to come.

Midrash Tanhuma

Future bliss can neither be imagined, explained, nor described. We know nothing of its nature, form, greatness, or beauty, its quantity or quality. This much one should know, the phrase, "the world to come," does not imply that it is a world yet to be called into existence; it exists already, but the phrase is employed to describe the life into which those who are in the present stage of existence will be transposed when they throw off this mortal coil.

LINK

In Genesis 1, we see Elohim preparing the true kingdom and reality in the image of God. In Genesis 2, we see the Prodigal Son building his own kingdom. The lower kingdom of matter is what the SON willingly fell into so we could rise with Him back to God. The crucifixion of Jesus was symbolic of the Son before time started. Just as baptism is symbolic of involution and evolution, the sacrifice of the Son for us is the same story of the Son returning from the wilderness. Again, God could not produce a perfect image of Himself apart from that reflection being ONE. The Son is the perfect image that then produces the multiplicity of souls that make up the sea of humanity below. Those souls then rise back to God, but not apart from being withing that original perfection. What fails to return is left behind at the final judgment and visitation of God.

Dead Sea Scroll

The fragments and clues from the past tells one story that can be put back together from the symbols. If you are looking into the outer shell of the onion, you will fail to go back to the core of truth. Look within the symbols and you see the story unfold.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

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I agree you must be born again, what I don't agree with is that you have to believe in Jesus to make it to heaven. How are there many paths when Jesus is the only way? You're holding on to those two contradictory conclusions and believing both are right.

Taking the bible at face value is not looking past the surface. If you truly did look past the surface, you'd see that there is no need for belief in anything to have eternal life because it's already yours.

You tell me to look at the symbols, yet when I say the same about Paul you ignore it. The symbol behind your theory of the bible being "hermetically sealed" is the god Hermes. Hermes was the protector of thieves and poetry. You may say that Hermes is based on Enoch but you fail to realize that it's not called an "enochian seal", it's called a "hermetic seal" which derives from a thief and trickster god, and Paul is even called Hermes within the bible. Yet, you choose to ignore it.

If you claim to see the symbols then why don't you see that one? I'll tell you why, because you don't WANT to see it. To agree that what you've believed for much of your life is a lie is to agree you've been living and believing in an illusion. To admit that is extremely hard for some, including you.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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See this new thread: Where is heaven?

Neither Christ or Paul's words in 1 Corinthians can be separated. Read the thread carefully. When it ends with Paul's words, you can see the higher axiom. If you deny Christ, you deny yourself. To know Christ is to know yourself. Watch the included video and listen to what he says. The echo is how we hear and see. The error is the same as the parallel to its truth. One is the light and the other the shadow. You need the echo to know I Am. I Am is God. Jesus is the one involved. The Son is all of us.

Hell is separation from God. Are we separated from God here? Not totally. Eventually, a final judgment comes. It's a mystery, yet the mystery can be solved. I can make it clear, but the light can only reveal what it hits.

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