What was/is Jesus?

reply to post by Deetermined

The verse is speaking about the spiritual seed of Jesus. Those who are "born again" are his offspring. Jesus will come back to earth for a "prolonged" period of time to reign (1,000 years / the Millennium) before a new heaven/earth is brought down for him to spend eternity with his offspring.

can you show me a source from a scripture for that and not a selective interpretation, you do realise that its possible to make conjenctures and then justify them with more conjenctures.

Jesus showed that we will be rescued
from a permanent death, not a human
death in general. Study the difference
between the first and second deaths.

if there was no rescue, there is nothing big about ressurection, every good and godly person will be saved from permanent death, so was Jesus pbuh, they couldnt give him permanent death even if they wanted, nobody can except God. Jesus just got more freedom to move around from Heaven to earth, others just go to Heaven and stay.

If we were to die, be put into a grave
and not be raised again, that would be
permanent death. That would not be a
rescue.

wouldnt we all be resurrected like Jesus pbuh on Judgement day? You are saying that God just resurrected Jesus pbuh a bit earlier. Where is the rescue? Its a failure to rescue covered up by early resurrection. No?

Jesus died to rescue us from a
permanent spiritual death.

this is pure preaching. The prophecies talk about Jesus' rescue and we should stick to that.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

can you show me a source from a scripture for that and not a selective interpretation, you do realise that its possible to make conjenctures and then justify them with more conjenctures.

Acts 17:28-29

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Some of you act like you've never heard the term "child of God". What do you think it means.

Might I suggest keyword searches in the Bible for "offspring", "seed", "seed of Satan", "child of God", "sons of God", etc.

if there was no rescue, there is nothing big about ressurection, every good and godly person will be saved from permanent death, so was Jesus pbuh, they couldnt give him permanent death even if they wanted, nobody can except God. Jesus just got more freedom to move around from Heaven to earth, others just go to Heaven and stay.

The resurrection was the rescue that God provided.

If Jesus had not been resurrected, none of us would be either.

wouldnt we all be resurrected like Jesus pbuh on Judgement day? You are saying that God just resurrected Jesus pbuh a bit earlier. Where is the rescue? Its a failure to rescue covered up by early resurrection. No?

Jesus was resurrected to prove to man that life after death was available to everyone.

After the first resurrection we will all be judged. At the time of judgement, it is decided whether or not we get to continue into eternity with Jesus/God or not. If we're not deemed worthy, we will experience the second death.

this is pure preaching. The prophecies talk about Jesus' rescue and we should stick to that.

The Bible talks out Jesus' rescue/resurrection paving the way for our own rescue/resurrection. That's exactly what Jesus told his disciples to preach throughout the world.

If Jesus had not died, none of us would be going to heaven. We'd all be doomed to the grave after this life is over.

reply to post by logical7


Maybe we're having a communication problem and this link can help give a better understanding of....

"10 Reasons Jesus Came to Die"

www.crossway.org...

reply to post by Deetermined

Acts 17:28-29 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Some of you act like you've never heard the term "child of God". What do you think it means. Might I suggest keyword searches in the Bible for "offspring", "seed", "seed of Satan", "child of God", "sons of God", etc.

thats interesting, so you take metaphorical meaning of offspring and yet when it comes to Jesus pbuh its taken literally. Its interesting that you mentioned "sons of God" i am sure thats metaphorical. Do you agree objectively that selective switching between literal and metaphorical is required for making sense of what you claim while the islamic perspective stand if you remain completely metaphorical and it becomes greek mythology if we take it all literally.

Jesus was resurrected to prove to man
that life after death was available to
everyone.

even if i agree to that, it not rescue of Jesus pbuh its just a demonstration. I dont need a proof to believe in resurrection. Anyways, we are discussing rescue here. That has yet not been proved by you.

The Bible talks out Jesus' rescue/
resurrection paving the way for our
own rescue/resurrection.

they are not synonyms. You made them up.

If Jesus had not died, none of us
would be going to heaven. We'd all be
doomed to the grave after this life is
over.

preaching again!

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

thats interesting, so you take metaphorical meaning of offspring and yet when it comes to Jesus pbuh its taken literally. Its interesting that you mentioned "sons of God" i am sure thats metaphorical. Do you agree objectively that selective switching between literal and metaphorical is required for making sense of what you claim while the islamic perspective stand if you remain completely metaphorical and it becomes greek mythology if we take it all literally.

The key is always in the context of which it is used.

By the way, comparing translations helps. I always use the KJV for exact meaning.

even if i agree to that, it not rescue of Jesus pbuh its just a demonstration. I dont need a proof to believe in resurrection. Anyways, we are discussing rescue here. That has yet not been proved by you.

What is there to discuss about rescue? I only used the word because you did.

Jesus was not rescued from a human death. He died. He was resurrected into an incorruptible (heavenly) body.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

Maybe we're having a communication problem and this link can help give a better understanding of....

"10 Reasons Jesus Came to Die"

www.crossway.org...

10) To destroy hostility
between races

he came mainly for jews and in early christianity, jews were the most persecuted by christians!

9) To give marriage its deepest
meaning

by remaining celibate? He dint had to die to teach relationship rather marry and leave an example

8) To absorb the wrath of God

preaching! And its not justice to punish an innocent

7) So that we would escape the
curse of the law

paul did that trick

6) To reconcile us to God

dint had to die unless i believe the christian asumptions and preaching again!

5) To show God’s love for sinners

it devoids God of the attribute of Forgiver if He took full payment from an innocent.

4) To show Jesus’ own love for
us

he showed it even before by forgiving the one's who hurted him

3) To take away our
condemnation

preaching!

2) To bring us to God

not required to die

1) To give eternal life to all who
believe on Him

even the explanation to this says "the ones who believe" not really in Jesus pbuh rather God. Are you saying muslims wont get eternal life? They dont believe in 'Him' they just believe in him.

reply to post by Deetermined

The key is always in the context of which it is used.

not really, the translations have already been adjusted, why capitalise 'son' , 'him' etc
also you agree that someone did the selective interpretation for you long back and its just been passed down and tweeked along to iron out inconsistencies even by inventing words when necessary as the OP pointed out. That obviously raises questions, how difficult was it to keep the message by Jesus pbuh as it was? So much inconsistencies smells of tampering making people rightly skeptical. Most christians i met personally dont buy this.

Jesus was not rescued from a human
death. He died. He was resurrected
into an incorruptible (heavenly) body.

thats wrong again, dint Jesus pbuh had wound marks when he met the apostles 'after ressurection'
that would mean it was the same old mortal body.

reply to post by logical7

even the explanation to this says "the ones who believe" not really in Jesus pbuh rather God. Are you saying muslims wont get eternal life? They dont believe in 'Him' they just believe in him.

John 8:24 (Jesus speaking)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think Jesus spoke in parables?

ETA: Doing a keyword search for the exact phrase of "I am he" in the Bible will go a long way here.

What kind of omnipotent deity would require the lengthy torture and execution of his own son?

I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42

This dude needs psychiatric help...........................Oh wait thats organised religion i'm thinking of. Im sure the big dude is a nice fellow, Man on the other hand well thats a whole new ball game, mix with organised religion and we have the Bible IMHO!

reply to post by logical7

thats wrong again, dint Jesus pbuh had wound marks when he met the apostles 'after ressurection' that would mean it was the same old mortal body.

Our "incorruptible" bodies will resemble the old body, but it will be transformed into one that will not decay, age or die. You will be able to eat, but you won't need to. You won't need to sleep because your transformed body will never grow tired. Jesus' resurrected body was able to appear and disappear at will. The new, improved, and supernatural body will be one that is capable of lasting for eternity.

Isaiah 40:31

31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Philippians 3:21

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Corinthians 15:42-46, 48, 49

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

John 20:19

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Luke 24:31

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Revelation 7:16

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

It's a tricky one huh? I asked myself this question several years ago while on a pursuit to find the truth about what being a Christian truly meant.

After reading the bible front to back, then starting over and reading again (took me 7 years, lol) After watching many, many shows, documentaries, bible studies, etc.. I've drawn "my" conclusion. He is God.

I realized my mere mortal mind can't fully comprehend some of the details and information that make up the amazing bible. One of the things that sold me was when I learned that there are more than 25,000 portions of documentation that much date back to his generation, and probably best substantiated by his own persecutors. That's what's really ironic. The people that tried to destroy him, and control religion, actually appear to provide the best proof of not only his existence, but also his miracles.

No other figure in the history of the world has no where near this much documentation about them. Think of Plato, there's, from what I understand, only 2 known documents on him, and they came 900 years after his death? That's how things were done back then, they weren't often written about. But people wrote of Jesus DURING his generation. If you don't believe it, look it up. Roman historians documented he walked the earth and verified his doings as it proclaims in the New Testament.

He called himself the Son of God, but also said when asked if he was God, "I Am". Doesn't make sense right? So what!! Water can be also steam and ice; 3 things. Why can't the Son be the Father too? Would it really be that hard for him? It doesn't make sense to us because we have nothing to reason that with.

The real question I think is whether people believe he rose from the dead or not. That's what I think it comes down to. This is for another thread, but there's also much logic that says yes, he must have.

There's so much more to this, the evidence just goes on and on and on. I think people are so stuck on "why did these children get killed if there's a God?", "what kind of God would allow this?", that they forget there's a devil too. Plus, what, are we all to expect a fairy tale life for everyone, where God saves us all from doom at the last minute every time? I'm not sure why horrific things happen with a loving God in control. I can't answer that one, but it's not going to stop me from acknowledging the facts. I happen to think if we really absolutely truly strive to know the truth, then we CAN call on God, and he will show up. It's hard to do when you still have to wake up the next day in this often brutally tough world and start all over again. But it is possible I believe, and I myself will never stop trying to know him better.

What about the thousands, maybe millions, of people that have had near death experiences and claim to have met Jesus? Every single one of them are lying, or delusional? Think of ghosts; many people don't believe in them yet millions have claimed to have encountered them. If only one of those million really saw a ghost, and the other 999,999 were lying, then ghosts exist.

One thing is for sure, we're all gonna find out.

Jesus was a Messiah. He was filled with the holy spirit of god. Don't understand how that makes him the only begotten son of god though God had other sons according to the bible, what happened to them....

reply to post by rickymouse


We were only made "sons of God" through "the Son of God".

Colossians 1:15-19

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

reply to post by digfact


The Devil is on a lead, cant do anything God does not permit. So says the Bible!

So im asking you how can any omnipotent deity, El, Elohim, Yahweh, God what even you wish to call him,her,it allow the great evils that occur on this earth to take place?

Im not questioning our creators existence. I am howerer very dubious as to the organised religious ulterior motives that go hand in hand with christianity.

We need to save ourselves! The big dude might be watching, but he's not going to help! At Least not in the fashion the bible tells us so.

People need to learn for there self what God is and means to them. Human beings dont need no priest to attain communion with there creator. He/she/it is omnipresent after all.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Jesus was a Messiah. He was filled with the holy spirit of god. Don't understand how that makes him the only begotten son of god though

God had other sons according to the bible, what happened to them....

Adam and Eve might have had daughters as well, why are they not mentioned in scripture. Their sons Cain and Abel had to have had relations with SOMEONE to further the specie other than their own Mother and what a story of incest this is.

Gods other Sons? himself as himself hiding within the bodies of Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer etc..

Jesus is the real person who was able to do what religious people would call a 'miracle.' He was able to match the magic of ancient magicians but nobody had done it for good. He was very intellgent and many times spoke in metaphors so it meant two different things, one has to be able to choose which thing they want it to mean.

reply to post by greyer


How do you explain all the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled written in the Old Testament? Did he have access to this as a check list that he made sure he completed?

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Just because things are hard for us to understand don't make them impossible. They are difficult to understand because of how we live today and perceive how things must have been, even though we're talking about events that happened thousands of years ago.

Read this:

Here is Ryrie’s comment on this issue from his book Basic Theology which I would highly recommend.

Though by many inerrantists the question of where Cain got his wife would not be considered a problem at all, this question is often used by those who try to demonstrate that the Bible is unreliable in what it claims. How could it claim that Adam and Eve were the first human beings who had two sons, one of whom murdered the other, and yet who produced a large race of people? Clearly, the Bible does teach that Adam and Eve were the first created human beings. The Lord affirmed this in Matthew 19:3-9. The genealogy of Christ is traced back to Adam (Luke 3:38). Jude 14 identifies Enoch as the seventh from Adam. This could hardly mean the seventh from “mankind,” an interpretation that would be necessary if Adam were not an individual as some claim. Clearly, Cain murdered Abel and yet many people were born. Where did Cain get his wife?

We know that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters in addition to Abel, Cain, and Seth (Gen. 5:4), and if there was only one original family, then the first marriages had to be between brothers and sisters. Such marriages in the beginning were not harmful. Incest is dangerous because inherited mutant genes that produce deformed, sickly, or moronic children are more likely to find expression in children if those genes are carried by both parents. Certainly, Adam and Eve, coming from the creative hand of God, had no such mutant genes. Therefore, marriages between brothers and sisters, or nieces and nephews in the first and second generations following Adam and Eve would not have been dangerous.

Many, many generations later, by the time of Moses, incest was then prohibited in the Mosaic laws undoubtedly for two reasons: first, such mutations that caused deformity had accumulated to the point where such unions were genetically dangerous, and second, it was forbidden because of the licentious practices of the Egyptians and Canaanites and as a general protection against such in society. It should also be noted that in addition to the Bible most other legal codes refuse to sanction marriages of close relatives.

But here is another issue to consider. If one accepts the evolutionary hypothesis as to the origin of the human race, has that really relieved the issue of incest? Not unless you also propound the idea of the evolution of many pairs of beings, pre-human or whatever, at the same time. No matter what theory of the origin of the human race one may take, are we not driven to the conclusion that in the early history of the race, there was the need for intermarriage of the children of the same pair?

reply to post by digfact


What if it is even simpler than all that. In our mind's what is God, both immortal and creator. Jesus is both immortal and creator; therefore to be called God is correct. In this way he can maintain his status as son but also obtain his status as God. Just like my child will be human like me. Jesus is God like God.

The bible says God is light and Jesus is light, they are the same, even if they are different. To try to define God or Christ outside of love is pointless. We simply can't comprehend everything unless he teaches us himself.

reply to post by digfact

How do you explain all the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled written in the Old Testament? Did he have access to this as a check list that he made sure he completed?

Obviously, yes.
Or
The writers of the New Testament adapted the stories from the old to make it appear that Jesus had fulfilled them.

Jesus knew the OT. There is no question about that.