The Sabbath

reply to post by adjensen


universal salvation is Scriptural....one has read the whole book......1TIM 4:10

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Hey Tarzan....yep, we're not held by a day, per say.....the Sabbath will be observed forever......in Heaven.....
we will go before God every sabbath to say hello......we'll go to where He is every sabbath.

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by adjensen

 

universal salvation is Scriptural....one has read the whole book......1TIM 4:10

Really? You don't see the contradiction in that passage? It's pretty clearly against universal salvation.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 NIV)

The word "especially" is the give away -- either Christ saves everyone, whether they believe or not, or he saves those who believe, and the distinction that "especially" denotes makes it impossible to say that the first conclusion is correct.

He is, indeed, the potential Savior of all people. But he doesn't save everyone, or the sentence "and especially of those who believe" would not be there.

reply to post by adjensen


Yeah there is not universal salvation.

Unfortunately, the people who believe that there is universal salvation are generally the people that are against God and His Judgement. That's not a good side of the fence to be on.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by adjensen

 

universal salvation is Scriptural....one has read the whole book......1TIM 4:10

Really? You don't see the contradiction in that passage? It's pretty clearly against universal salvation.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 NIV)

The word "especially" is the give away -- either Christ saves everyone, whether they believe or not, or he saves those who believe, and the distinction that "especially" denotes makes it impossible to say that the first conclusion is correct.

He is, indeed, the potential Savior of all people. But he doesn't save everyone, or the sentence "and especially of those who believe" would not be there.

1 Tim 4:10 Says that everyone is already saved by Christ. That why its called the gospel because its the good news not the bad news. Now go tell everyone you know that they are already saved and it matters not if they want to be its done. It was done at the cross and you or no one else can change that. Christ died for ALL!!!!! Don't worry everyone will be dragged (drawn) to Christ now or later that is the part you choose.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by adjensen

 

Yeah there is not universal salvation.

Unfortunately, the people who believe that there is universal salvation are generally the people that are against God and His Judgement. That's not a good side of the fence to be on.

Do we read from the same bible because mine says Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Think about the universal view of

John 3 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

This verse says All things. All means all.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

Hi MPLS Fitter

The issue of course is that the phrase 'qol Yisroel' ('all Israel') & 'qol Eretz' ('all the land' i.e. of Israel) is what is meant - not 'the whole world' i.e. including the goyim (non Jews) and we all know how the 'good' Rebbe felt about gentiles.

Mostly in the earliest Christian communities (as with 2nd Temple Judaeism), the Hebrew word Eretz means 'land of Yisro'el' and not 'world' and qol-Eretz Yisroel means 'the entire Land of Yisro'el' not 'the Whole World' - we see this issue come up in the socalled Book of Revelation where 'those who dwell upon the earth' actually means 'those who occupy the land of Yisro'el'

It seems when they translated ERETZ into Greek they wrote 'ho Kosmos', which is another thing altogether, so beware of the 'universality' of the earliest Christianities in the 1st century - the audience and the texts produced were written BY Jews for other Jews and not for goyim - although uncircumcised 'god fearers' were included as target audiences (in the synagogues the god fearers were kept behind a a barrier from the 'circumcised' ones.

For a vestige of the racist-zionism inherent in early Christianiy, see 'Matt' chapter 15 : 12ff ('Lady, the Bar Enasha ('son of man') was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of the Elect of the House of Yisro'el and anyway, since when would it be right to take the children's bread (i.e. Yisroelites/Judaeans) out of their mouths and throw it away on the DOGS under the table ?')

In the 1st canonical gospel ('according to Matthew' whoever he was) story he was addressing a Syro Phoenecian gentile female (two strikes against her as far as the good Rebbe was concerned). He had no intention of speaking to goyim, only 'the elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el' which would include 'qol Yisro'el' i.e. those Jews who were 'scattered amongst the Goyim' in the Roman Empire and abroad (one of the duties of the 'Meshiaq' was to 're-gather the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el back to Eretz Yisro'el in the last Days...'

see the Book of the Prophet Hezekiel (c. 550 BCE)

Ezekiel 36:11; 25ff - "And I will deal with you better at the latter days that at the beginning - yea, I will take you from among the goyim (i.e. gentiles) and re-gather you out of all the Nations (i.e. non Jews) and I will bring you into your own Land."

Proto Isaiah 35

In that Day a road will be there and a Highway;
it will be called the Holy Way.
The ritually unclean will not travel on it,
but it will be for the one who walks the path.
yea, the redeemed will walk upon it,
and the redeemed of YHWH will return to Zion
Yea they shall come with singing,
crowned with unending joy.

Trito Isaiah 57"14ff / Isaiah 62:1ff

14 And it will be said on that Day:

“Build up, build up, prepare the Highway
Remove the obstacles out of the way of My People.”

Pass through, pass through the gates!
Prepare the way for the people.
Build up, build up the highway!
Remove the stones.
Raise a banner for the Gentiles !

YHWH issues this Proclamation
to the ends of the land -
“Say to Daughter Zion, Behold, your Savior comes!

Trito Isaiah 60:4ff

“Lift up your eyes and look about you:
All assemble and come to you;
your sons come from afar,
and your daughters are carried on the hip.
Then the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
to you the riches of the goyim (i.e. Gentiles / non Jews) will flow into you.
Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of YHWH
Yea, in that Day they will be accepted as offerings on my Altar,
Thus I shall adorn my glorious Temple.

The kings of the Gentiles shall serve you:
Your gates will always stand open,
They will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the Goyim (i.e. Gentiles / non Jews) —
their captive Kings led in triumphal procession.
For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.

The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for YHWH himself will be your everlasting light,
and your own clan god shall be the Cavod in it !

Isaiah 61

The Spirit of the Sovereign King is on me,
because YHWH has Anointed me
to proclaim good news to the Evionim.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners
to proclaim the Day of YHWH's favour
And to announce the Day of Vengeance of our clan god in Zion—

In that Day you will be called priests YHWH,
you will be named ministers of our clan god
You will feed on the wealth of the Goyim (i.e. gentiles / non Jews)
and with their riches you will bedeck yourselves.

Hear that uproar from the city,
hear that noise from the Temple !
It is the sound of YHWH
repaying his enemies all they deserve !

Originally posted by mplsfitter539
Do we read from the same bible because mine says Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Think about the universal view of

John 3 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

This verse says All things. All means all.

The problem is that passages like that can be read either way -- one can make a case for universal salvation, or for non-universal salvation (Calvin, for example, said that Christ saving all was "Christ saving all that he meant to", which leads into predestination.) However, there are numerous passages that cannot be reconciled with universal salvation, such as John 3:18 ("Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son"), so one is left with either an unorthodox interpretation, which is usually a giant stretch, or that bit just needs to be ignored.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by mplsfitter539
Do we read from the same bible because mine says Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Think about the universal view of

John 3 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

This verse says All things. All means all.

The problem is that passages like that can be read either way -- one can make a case for universal salvation, or for non-universal salvation (Calvin, for example, said that Christ saving all was "Christ saving all that he meant to", which leads into predestination.) However, there are numerous passages that cannot be reconciled with universal salvation, such as John 3:18 ("Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son"), so one is left with either an unorthodox interpretation, which is usually a giant stretch, or that bit just needs to be ignored.

Ok I will give you that but we need to know what word condemned was translated from.
G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
So condemned means to be judged. We will all be judged and corrected by God. God's correction is always remedial. God will not be destroying billions of souls he will be correcting them. Everyone who needs correction will receive their due portion of correction but not torture.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


Well, I'm not a scholar of ancient languages, though there are a couple of them around here someplace. However, I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that such a significant conclusion could only be reached by translating into and out of ancient languages. And, as I said, there are many other places, both in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, that speak to non-universal salvation, such as Philippians 3:18-19:

For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction

"Destruction" doesn't sound like "correction".

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

Well, I'm not a scholar of ancient languages, though there are a couple of them around here someplace. However, I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that such a significant conclusion could only be reached by translating into and out of ancient languages. And, as I said, there are many other places, both in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, that speak to non-universal salvation, such as Philippians 3:18-19:

For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction

"Destruction" doesn't sound like "correction".

Destruction
G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Hebrew is not an outdated language. It was the original language of Jesus in fact more specifically Aramaic. The language that builds the structure for the Word of God. Which by the way can be proven mathematically. Jesus=888 Christ takes all of the glory!!!

mplsfitter539,

re: "...and finally Tabernacles which signifies glorification."

And with regard to Tabernacles, Zechariah 14:16-19 which takes place after the Messiah sets up His kingdom at the second coming says: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord shakes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

reply to post by rstrats

. . . which takes place after the Messiah sets up His kingdom at the second coming . . .

"Second coming" makes me think that when you say "Messiah", you mean the one we already have, namely, Jesus, who is the main character in the gospels.
I don't think that jesus will be doing any "coming" in the near future, and if so, not in any kind of political environment like we have today.
I think that in order to accept the New Testament, one must at the same time reject the Old Testament, including any prophecies that may seem to be presently unfulfilled, since the fulfillment foretold was accomplished in Jesus, and we are now in the Messianic age right now.
Any so-called earthly messianic age that is yet to be ushered in is going against the NT, and is most likely a scheme cooked up by the supporters of Talmudic Judaism to nullify Christianity.