Bombs in the Building: World Trade Center 'Conspiracy Theory' is a Conspiracy Fact

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posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 09:29 PM
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Howard, your case depends more on chance and unavailable information than the conspiracy theory does. And you really could work on sticking to one thought at a time, because you were asking how many people reported basement explosions, not what proof these people had of what caused them.

And Mike P. reported destruction in the basement, did he not? I suppose now that it was Bigfoot that did it, rather than an explosive, since we all *know* that there couldn't possibly have been explosives in the basement just like there were during the '93 bombing, right? Impossible. Except someone had done it before. Yeah, definitely Bigfoot blowing that equipment around down there as the planes impacted.




posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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HoWaRdarRoark, how does the inner core of the each World Trade Center seem to be effectively compromised to allow simultaneous collapse of itself and the outer buckling columns.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Griff

Can you show that jet fuel explosions have enough force to do the damage in the B-4 subbasement? Also, how did it get there? I know of one elevator that ran the length of the building, but wasn't this the elevator that was still in use after the impacts? If I'm correct, how could this powerful explosion cause so much damage to the subbasement while leaving the elevator intack and operational?


There were 3 that ran the entire length of the building. The rest were shorter ones at various levels. Basically the planes cut throught the buildingsd and went through many of the elevator shaft. Fuel poored down many shafts due to gravity. Also the explosion feorm the exploding fuel and impact are going to force air as well as fireballs down the elevator shafts. The shafts are sealed so the result is going to be like shaking a soda bottle and the path of least resistence is going to be down. So this knocked many of the elevators down and blew out the doors at the bottom of many elevator shafts.

Of course this did not impair all of the elevators in all of the buildings, as not all were in the path of the flights or in that floor range. However there were also other factors such as losing power, which causes the elevators to go to the bottom floors and open. But many did not and people were trapped.

but more importantly this explains the explosions in the basements, as well as the injured people down there who were generally those who were in the elevators that came crashing down. There are breaks that kick in after 20 floors or so, so but that won't stop the force from blowing open the doors at the bottom.

If you want more information, do a search for people who were in the elevators. There are some good 9/11 documentaries dedicated *just* to people who were caught in elevators, and this includes ones who were knocked to the bottom and survived, despite severe 3rd degree burns. There was even a married couple who both worked on different elevators and both were badly burned, but both survived. I wish I could remember the name of the documentary.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 07:17 AM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark
I have never heard that the main freight elevator was in use after the impact.



Thanks to Valhall for finding this information.

single post
www.abovetopsecret.com...
thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

video of interview with Mary Baldizzi
www.whatreallyhappened.com...



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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Looks like the main freight was working fine after all, unless this woman is a ghost or imposter.



No fireballs traveling down any elevators to the basements, I'm afraid.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by snoopy
There were 3 that ran the entire length of the building.


Care to prove this?

www.pbs.org...

Looks like only one elevator running the entire building to me. Unless PBS is part of the CT crowd?

Edit: Unless you're talking about WTC 2 getting hit at the 78th floor. That is still only 2 elevators running from the 78th floor to the lobby....it doesn't go into which ones went to the basements.

[edit on 10/19/2006 by Griff]



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 03:52 PM
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There was only one elevator that had access to all floors (including the basement levels) of each building. There were two more "express" elevators, but they did not have access to all floors (I believe only the lobbies, the skylobbies, and the top floors) that ran from the lobby to the top of the building. And if I am remembering correctly, they only went as low as the lobby level, not the basement levels.

[edit on 10-19-2006 by Valhall]



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by HowardRoark
I have never heard that the main freight elevator was in use after the impact.



Thanks to Valhall for finding this information.

single post
www.abovetopsecret.com...
thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

video of interview with Mary Baldizzi
www.whatreallyhappened.com...



www.debunking911.com...

A glaring example of picking and choosing what to focus on is the interview with Mary Baldizzi... They point to a BBC article that says
The jet fuel caused the fire to spread so far and so fast that it effectively cut the building into two. For the 6,000 people below where the plane had hit the staircases still offered a means of escape, but for the 950 caught above the point of impact and the fire there was no way out.
The argument is made that towers fell because of separate detonations. As proof, they offered the case of Mary Baldizzi who supposedly had escaped the 104th floor of the World Trade Center's North Tower by elevator. Thus, the only way she could have escaped via elevator was if the core was intact at least to the 104th floor.

When I watched the video, I thought, if there had been a survivor from above the impact zone in Tower 1, it would have been widely broadcast. So, logically, I searched online for either confirmation or repudiation. I found neither. What I did find was the repeated use of Ms. Baldizzi's story as evidence in various alternative theories (i.e., other than fire) for the collapse of the towers.

Returning to the original video, I watched it several more times. After listening closely to Ms. Baldizzi's interview, I came to the conclusion that Mary Baldizzi was not on the 104th floor of the North Tower (WTC1) but was on the 104th floor of the South Tower (WTC2) and that this was a misrepresentation of her escape as having been from WTC1. Here are the reasons I came to this conclusion:

1. Although the newswomen began the interview stating that Mary Baldizzi had come down the elevators from the 104th floor and was in the "first tower when it was struck," at no time during the interview does Ms. Baldizzi state that she was in the North Tower. In addition, none of the graphics that accompany the interview claim that Ms. Baldizzi was in the North Tower. When Ms. Baldizzi is asked if she felt the impact, she says "Oh yeah." But the effects she describes -- feeling the heat, experiencing the shaking, hearing the explosion -- are all effects experienced by those who were in the South Tower on the floors adjacent to the impact zone (see:
www.usatoday.com... ). If she had been in the North Tower when it was hit then she would have described the impact in much less casual terms.

2. Around 5 minutes and 20 seconds into the interview, the interviewers ask about Ms. Baldizzi's coworkers. Ms. Baldizzi's states that she does not know the whereabouts of her fellow employees and proceeds to state, around 5:55 of the interview, that she has no way of contacting them other than to "call [the] main office in Illinois." Now, the offices on the 104th floor of the North Tower were occupied exclusively by Cantor Fitzgerald, while offices on the 104th floor of the South Tower were occupied by Sandler O'Neill (see: www.cnn.com...). Cantor Fitzgerald does not have a main office in Illinois (see: www.cantor.com...). Sandler O'Neill, on the other hand, does have a central office in Chicago (see: www.sandleroneill.com...). This suggests that Ms. Baldizzi was an employee of Sandler O'Neill (in the South Tower) rather than Cantor Fitzgerald (in the North Tower).

3. Finally, and conclusively, at 6:15 in the interview Ms. Baldizzi begins a discussion about what she and her coworkers did when they exited the building. She clearly says: "There were police officers, thank God, that were aiming us towards Liberty St. because we stupidly walked towards One World Trade because we didn't know; we had no idea it was a terrorist attack." Now, if Ms. Baldizzi had been in One World Trade Center (i.e., the North Tower) there is no way she would have described her egress as "towards One Word Trade" because no matter in which direction she walked she would have been going away from One World Trade. This point proves, beyond any doubt, that Ms. Baldizzi exited from the South Tower and that the mistaken announcement at the beginning of the interview that she was in the North Tower was just one of the miscommunications and misunderstandings in the chaos of those early days.
I concluded that Ms. Baldizzi exited Tower 2 at the same time many others in the building did: after the North Tower was hit but before the South Tower was hit. If she was "dragged" into the elevator within seconds after the first tower was hit, and if the elevator ride took about 4 minutes, she would've been out of the building well before the South Tower was hit



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 07:30 PM
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If she was in the second tower before it got hit, why does she say that the first thing she felt was heat? Did she feel the heat from the first impact way over in WTC2? No where in the interview does it even come close to saying that she was in WTC2 before it was attacked. The interviewer could be wrong that she was in WTC1, but nowhere can you conclude that she was in the elevator before WTC2 got attacked. We need to look into this more.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 08:07 PM
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1. She was most likely in WTC 2 because the freight elevator cables were sheared in WTC 1.
2. I'm glad that guy can conclude she was talking pre-WTC 2 impact. I can't. Neither can you with good conscience, Howard.
3. Now, let's talk about Arturo Griffith who was inside the freight elevator of WTC 1 at the exact time of impact, fell 15 to 16 floors when the cables were sheared, but wasn't incinerated by or blown through the basement floor by any FAE.

Let's talk about him now....and his wife who was in another elevator on the 78th floor at the time of WTC 1 impact. She didn't get incinerated by an FAE either. They both lived through it.

www.usatoday.com...

I'll keep looking for more info on Mary.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 09:28 PM
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Both Mike Pecorio and William Rodriguez indicated thatthere were people severly burned that were in the freight elevator.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 10:03 PM
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Well, apparently it wasn't this freight elevator because Mr. Griffith's only injury was a broken tibia and the passenger in the elevator with him was not injured at all. But his wife, in the passenger elevator on the 78th was burned pretty bad.



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 07:24 AM
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So, now we have WTC 1's freight elevator with the cables sliced upon impact with no fire or explosion. And we have WTC 2's freight elevator in opperation after impact. If you can really say that Mary was in the elevator before impact, I'd say you are blatently lying, like the guy from debunking 9/11. Isn't that the same site that WeComeInPeace has proven to be lying with the WTC7 south face picture? Hmm...if he's going to lie about that, what makes him so credible?

Anyway, Mary clearly states that the first thing she felt was heat. Was this the magical jet fuel that went down WTC1's elevators...through the lobby and up WTC2's elevators? We're going beyond magic bullet territory if that is what you are suggesting Howard.

Anyway, I see 2 accounts of no fire balls or jet fuel running down these freight elevators.....the ONLY elevators that went to the basement. Yes, Rodriguez et al claimed that people were burnt in the freight elevators.....do they mention which freight elevators? There were 3 you know....only 1 ran the entire length of the building though. Plus, if there was an explosion in the basement, who is to say that the explosion wasn't the cause of these people being burnt in the elevators and not jet fuel?



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 07:53 AM
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This is where I see things so far (based on survivor accounts accumulated so far). Please feel free to correct anything you think I may have misinterpreted.

1. There appears to have not been any significant FAE down the elevator shafts of WTC 1 (I hesitate to say that for WTC 2 at this point for lack of data). At least nothing powerful enough to blow 20 foot marble slabs off the lobby walls or cause an explosion/collapse in the basement 4 level or on floor 22.

2. There DOES appear to have been burning flowing jet fuel in a number of the elevator shafts in both buildings. This works against the FAE possibility as it appears the "rivulets of burning jet fuel" were almost immediate. You can't have flowing burning jet fuel and FAE simultaneously because the ratio isn't right to support the FAE.

3. I have yet to find any account of any elevator in either building being "blown" down an elevator shaft. A number of elevator occupants reported significant damage to the elevators they were in due to debris, or the cables being sheared, but there are no accounts from any occupants of the building of any elevator being blown by explosive force or pressure waves. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means we have no account or evidence of it (I don't believe the NIST report states anything like this either).

4. A significant finding is the investigation that led to the theory of why stairwell A in WTC 2 remained intact all the way to the top of the building. The theory holds that the bank of 24 elevator hoist machines shielded stairwell A, which was on the opposite side of the building from where the plane impacted, from any destruction. Survivor accounts tell the lights were still working as they passed through Floor 81 where the elevator machines were located. With the plane striking on floors 78 through 84 of WTC 2, if there had been an appreciable FAE communicating in any given elevator shaft, it would have blown the machine, located at the area of greatest energy from the FAE, upward. The report states these machines were "still intact and attached to their reinforced beams". It does not mention any machines being ripped from their beams.

5. I'm starting to believe that Mary Baldizzi DID ride the freight elevator from the 104th floor of WTC 2 down to safety BEFORE that building was impacted. I state this because in every article/report I've found on survivors from above the impact zone escaping POST-impact, not one of them list her and the other occupants escaping via elevator. All accounts list 16 (going from memory there, but I think that number is correct) survivors above the impact zone escaping, and all of them are reported to have taken Stairwell A. Again, this is a point where you have to say - that doesn't prove she didn't ride the elevator down after impact, but it does mean you have to take into account the opposite possibility.

Maybe we should try to locate Ms. Baldizzi and interview her. huh?

[edit on 10-20-2006 by Valhall]



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall

Maybe we should try to locate Ms. Baldizzi and interview her. huh?


I was thinking the same thing myself. Why would she state that the first thing she felt was heat if she wasn't in the tower at the time of impact though? That's what is getting me. Were the towers close enough that the blast from the first impact was hot enough for her to feel? Also, if she was in the WTC2 and evacuated before the second impact, why would she and the people with her start to walk towards WTC1 (the tower that was hit)? I think we need to investigate this further...hopefully someone can find her and get a statement.

At any rate, the explosions in the basement were in WTC1 or at least the time of the first impact correct? And that was the freight elevator that Mr. Griffiths was on correct? That alone discounts the "magic jet fuel bomb in the basement theory" does it not?

[edit on 10/20/2006 by Griff]



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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I'm with you, Griff on a lot of unanswered questions concerning Ms. Baldizzi's statements. Yes, I agree that the numerous accounts of occupants of elevators, and most importantly Mr. Griffith in the freight elevator, throws a tremendous obstacle in the path of efforts to claim damage at the lobby level and in the B4 level were due to an FAE down the elevator shafts.



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 11:38 AM
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I found a list of WTC1 survivors. I can't verify if it's correct or not but Mary Baldizzi is listed. It also says "Tudor Insurance Company" for her. I think that may mean who she works for now?

Here's the list...she is number 67.

www.plusweb.org/Downloads/Events/October 30, 2003 Registrant List.xls

Not sure how to read this because there are no title tags or anything. It's an excel file.

You have to copy and paste the "link" into your browser for it to work.

[edit on 10/20/2006 by Griff]



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 11:56 AM
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There used to be a survivor database at NY.com but has been taken down. Why would they take this down? They should have left it at least as a memorial of the people who survived IMO.



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark
Both Mike Pecorio and William Rodriguez indicated thatthere were people severly burned that were in the freight elevator.


Because of an explosion that went off in the basement, that rocked the ground and destroyed concrete and steel.

You want to consider their testimonies, or cherry-pick it?



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Just to clarify, Howard. There were 7 freight elevators in WTC 1. There was one freight elevator that had access to all floors including the basement levels. It is my understanding that the remaining freight elevators were as such: There were two that ran from the lobby to the top floor but only had access at the lobby, skylobbies and top floor. Then there were four more freight elevators that served the lower floors. WTC 2 was set up the same way.

So Pecorio's and Rodriguez's accounts that people were severely burned in freight elevators in the basement level can still be true even though we have now ruled out it was the one freight elevator that had access to all floors - since Mr. Griffith was in that one.

www.foxnews.com...

wtc.nist.gov...


Elevators were the primary mode of routine ingress and egress from the towers for tens of thousands of people daily. In order to minimize the total floor space needed for elevators, each tower was divided vertically into three zones by skylobbies, which served to distribute passengers among express and local elevators. In this way, the local elevators within a zone were placed on top of one another within a common shaft. Local elevators serving the lower portion of a zone were terminated to return to the space occupied by those shafts to leasable tenant space. People transferred from express elevators to local elevators at the skylobbies which were located on the 44th and 78th floors in both towers. Each tower had 99 passenger and 7 freight elevators, all located within the core of the building.



There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of shich served all floors. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) A17.1 and Local Law 5 (1973).


[edit on 10-20-2006 by Valhall]





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