Bombs in the Building: World Trade Center 'Conspiracy Theory' is a Conspiracy Fact

Originally posted by billybob
what would that shock wave that hits you in the chest look like on a siesmograph, howard? a big spike, perhaps?
it was the people at the university who spend their time learning about seismographs who said there were spikes before each tower fell. not tinfoil-hatters.

Do I have to go over this again. OK, here goes:


THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE SEISMOGRAPH RECORD OF A SPIKE PRECEEDING THE COLLAPSE. THERE ARE NO STATEMENTS IN THE COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY REPORT TO THIS EFFECT. THIS HAS BEEN SHOWN OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?



edit: what part of the following don't you understand?



[edit on 26-10-2004 by HowardRoark]

Roark, if you can't see that the largest spike is on the left side, then you are blind. I'd love to be able to prove there were pools of molten steel, but I guess we have to rely on the statements from CDI and FEMA that say there were. The evidence was illegally removed from the crime scene adn subsequent investigations were blocked. Do you honeslty think CDI would say there was pools of molten steel if there weren't? I'm sorry Roark, the pools of molten steel were common knowlege. They were reported to the media by the company contracted to clean up the site. You can holler proove it all day long, so could I.. as a matter of fact I will. Proove there weren't pools of molten steel.

Originally posted by godservant
I am a volunteer firefighter 45 minutes away from NY. I recently met several from the city and the talk of 911 is forbidden. I asked a couple about and they told me that they could not discuss it, but not to believe the official version. Thats all I could get.

With 7WTC being demolished, so soon after the towers fell, that means the building was already wired to go. Ask yourself one question - 'Hows that?'.

Wow!

Originally posted by Djarums
Taib, I would never say that the person who designed the towers is an idiot, nor would I call him a liar. I call him wrong. I say he didn't know. He didn't anticipate that, and he didn't know.

The design team did anticipate impacts from aircraft and the subsequent fires assosciated with a full load of fuel. These aren't just any steel high rise structures, they were the most over designed buildings of their time. Impact from jetliners don't pulverize or ATOMIZE concrete from the top down either, fire doesn't, air pressure doesn't. The only thing which could cause the lateral ejection of material, perfect footprint collapses is a carefully planned controlled demolition.

Originally posted by Djarums
The bangs? Who knows? I always wondered what would happen if a computer server room was heated to 2000 degrees. Or all sorts of other things we've debated here before. Maybe some deisel powered backup generators? Those existed on that scene too you know.

Firefighters know the difference between explosions and groans of steel or popping of rivets. The explosions were reported not only during the collapses, but before the collapses. The popping of deisel generators isn't going to cause spikes on a seismograph miles away and professional fire fighters aren't going to say they heard explosions unless they heard explosions. I wouldn't imagine that firefighters would report that there were 'bombs going off' unless they had some reason to say that.

Originally posted by Djarums
Lastly, I've mentioned before the argument regarding the "pull" comments and I'm not going to turn this thread into a repeat of that, but I think you're not being fair by not considering the common meaning of pull at a fire rather than assuming this version of the word that has been invented is the true one. Keep in mind your assumption includes the Fire Department having the order to blow up a building broadcast on their publicly accessible radio frequency, and included the person you blame for blowing the building up admitting to it in an interview. The devious man who was part of a group that planned the biggest conspiracy in world history then isn't smart enough not to blab about it on tv? Yes, that makes sense.

This order to pull the building came directly from Silverstein, and even the most skeptical human being must admit that the building collapsing just after the order to pull it is incredible. This has already been addressed in the thread, but to reiterate, Silverstien has no athority over the NYFD, he would have not have given an order to 'pull' the building, the NYFD would have. Right after this order was given, the building collapsed.

Originally posted by AntiPolitrix
Exactly, alot of spewed information isn't enough to make me believe. I do believe the huge floors pancaking together would make a boom booom boooom. And the noide would get louder as it gets closer.
Think for yourself people, just think. Why would G.W. Bush do this? Why? If you think Bush would have benefited from this you are as crazy as the writer.

Alot of spewed information?!?! That is exactly the problem...Dude, notihng in the official story adds up to a shred of credibility. Not a single aspect in the offical story holds up to scientific scrutiny. How would Bush have benefited? Jesus man, how did he not benefit? Iraq, Afghanistan, Bush Oil interests, Cheney adn Bush defesne contractor contacts. Have you read this entire thread or are you just jumping on the last page and trying to argue that the government wouldn't lie to you?

I can't beleive you guys are still trying to say that jet fuel fires casued the collapses of two steel high rises. Roark is now saying the fireballs weren't jet fuel burning up? LOL That fireball represents the bulk of your superhot jet fuel fire burning up on impact instead of forming big hot steel melting pools. Come on roark, address the real issue here and answer my question as to why the bomb sniffing dogs were removed a few days ebfore the attack, or answer why teh mant hat wired 100,000 dollars to the 'ring learder' of the attack was meeting with sneate intelligence committee memebers. Why have there been absolutley no convictions of the perps who assited this. Why were mossad agents following these arabs around, in some cases living literally next door to them? Since when does jet fuel pool steel? Atomized concrete and lateral ejection, visible squibs going off below the line of collapse, so many issues you are not addressing here. The man that ran aournd with the tapes from air traffic control cutting them into shreds adn depositing them into seperate trash cans to me is a smoking gun, to you, it is 'bad judgement'. Folks the removal of the steel beams, in light of the reposrts of explosions, is a criminal obstruction of justice, and criminal destruction of evidence, add this with the subsequent blockage of investigation by the Bush administration, it just don't add up. As much as I would like to believe the official story, it isn't based on any facts. The laws of physics and the official story don't jive.

Originally posted by twitchy
Roark, if you can't see that the largest spike is on the left side, then you are blind.

Twitchy, As I tried to explain to you before. The large spike in the black line is the same as the numerous spikes on the red line. The two graphs are just set to different time scales and different sensitivity. They are different representations of the same data. The reason that the seismologists included the data shown in red is because that is the impact data that they are talking about. It is the same as the big spike on the black line. They are the same. The timescale for the black line is such that the width of the pen itself represents several seconds. Furthermore, the sensitivity is such that it records the slightest vibrations above normal background noise.

THE LARGE SPIKE THAT YOU CLAIM IS FROM AN EXPLOSION WAS CAUSED BY THE IMPACT OF THE BUILDING WITH THE GROUND!

Why is it that you can not grasp this simple fact?

When the building impacted the ground, it created the large spike. The very, very small spikes after the initial impact are nothing more than �echos� and reverberations in the bedrock of the initial energy pulse from the collapse impact. The red line is the same as the black line. Instead 1 mm of the x-axis of the black graph being equal to a given number of seconds, on the red graph, 1 mm is now equal to a given number of milliseconds. They also lowered the amplitude of the response. The maximum height of the red graph is the same as the maximum height of the spike on the black graph.

Why, why, why, can�t you grasp this?


Once again:

THE LARGE SPIKE THAT YOU CLAIM IS FROM AN EXPLOSION WAS CAUSED BY THE IMPACT OF THE BUILDING WITH THE GROUND!

Can you not see the large anamolous spike on the LEFT side of the graph? Can you not understand that falling debris impacting the ground should come in at the right side of the graph, not at the left? Can you not address the question as to why they pulled the bomb sniffing dogs out of the building days before the attack? The seismic readings are pretty easy to interpret, there is a large anamolous spike before the collapse, adn the largest readings are in the initial phase of the collapse, on the RIGHT side of the graph. The large anamolous spike on the LEFT side just BEFORE the collapse also cooincide with the reports of explosions. Also, there were explosions from the ground floors, visible squibs ejecting material ahead of the falling debris. Are you still going to hold to your earlier assertion that the squibs visible in footage from multiple sources are digital noise?
How can you not see the largest spikes in the seismic data are on the right side? You keep posting that picture, but yet that data indicates explosions just prior to the collapse. Eye witnesses reported explosions, firefighters reported explosions, lateral ejection of material and the pulveration of the conrete FROM THE TOP of the buildings, explosions at the base of the towers confirmed by both footage and witnesses. CDI says yes there were pools of molten STEEL. Why are you denying the facts here? What about the dogs Roark, why did MARVIN BUSH's security comapny pull the bomb sniffing dogs out of the building? Why doesn't FEMA's report show the large central support core in their findings? You know the one that should still be visible in the debris field if their pancaking truss theory held any water? Why was FEMA ordered into NY on sept. 10? Keep posting the picture of the seismic data, I love it, maybe if you keep posting enough you will eventually be able to see the large anamolous spike on the LEFT side of the graph.

The two unexplained spikes are more than 20 times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University�s Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, �This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated.�

notice, howard, that ARTHUR LERNER-LAM, DIRECTOR of COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY'S center for hazards and risk research, DIDN'T say, 'there were NO siesmic spikes before the towers fell'?

�Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion,� Lerner-Lam said. �The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small.�

Last November, Lerner-Lam said: �During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage�but not causing significant ground shaking.�


so, howard. we're supposed to believe you over lerner-lam?

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by twitchy
There were pools of molten steel, not just metal, steel.

Prove it.

from the 'american free press':

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself �the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures.�

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived at the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site.

�Yes,� he said, �hot spots of molten steel in the basements.�

These incredibly hot areas were found �at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels,� Loizeaux said.

The molten steel was found �three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,� Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

Originally posted by twitchy
Alot of spewed information?!?! That is exactly the problem

Yes it is, if there was to your conspiracy theory then it would be called fact. It is not, it is only theory. I good theory but it is still not fact.

Have you read this entire thread or are you just jumping on the last page and trying to argue that the government wouldn't lie to you?

Yes i have read the thread and i know the government has lied to the American people but your argument doesn't make since to me. The booms heard as the building fell IMP is the boom that would occur as the floors crashed down on each other. The reason why we can not see the floors piled up on each other on the ground is because they crumbled as the mass of concrete hit the ground.

That fireball represents the bulk of your superhot jet fuel fire burning up on impact instead of forming big hot steel melting pools.

In your opinion, that is not fact. We do not know where all the fuel went but i think the bulk of the fuel burned inside the building. THe fire fighters went up to the 79th floor where they battled small flames but what was above those floors? Was there a bigger, hotter fire burning above the floors the fire fighters where? We do not know.

The laws of physics and the official story don't jive.

Same thing was probably said after the Titantic sank, but thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by twitchy
. You can holler proove it all day long, so could I.. as a matter of fact I will. Proove there weren't pools of molten steel.

Originally posted by twitchy

Impact from jetliners don't pulverize or ATOMIZE concrete from the top down either, fire doesn't, air pressure doesn't.

No one ever said that the impact of the planes or air pressure pulverized the concrete.

It was gravity. Do you understand the concept of kinetic energy?

The kinetic energy of the collapse has been estimated (based on the building mass and elevation from the ground) as being as high as 2.2 terajoules (tj). In comparison the atomic explosion over Hiroshima was about 65 tj




[edit on 26-10-2004 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by twitchy
Can you not see the large anamolous spike on the LEFT side of the graph? . . . . . . . I love it, maybe if you keep posting enough you will eventually be able to see the large anamolous spike on the LEFT side of the graph.

You doofus*, that is the trace from the second collapse overlapping the first.

Here, check this out, they colored the lines differently so that you can see how it works.

Thanks a lot, you made me spew Coke all over my monitor!








*Meant in a friendly way, no insult intended.

Here is a good shot of the seismic readouts, not the 20x spikes before the collapses...
theunjustmedia.com...

Here are some pics of the "digital noise" that Roark ways aren't squibs...
vancouver.indymedia.org...
st12.startlogic.com...
st12.startlogic.com...
911review.org...
www.beatlestribute.com...&_World_Trade_Center_Video_Showing_Demolition_Squibs_Sequentially_Firing.htm
www.plaguepuppy.net/.../ collapse%20update/
thewebfairy.com/ 911/demolition/heath.htm
www.apfn.net...

This site has numerous shots of the "digital noise" adn a wealth of other information...
911research.com...
Once you get a good look at the squibs at wtc go to CDI's web site and look, I think you will see the digitl noise they use to bring down steel high rises very similar...

The dogs of war...
www.nynewsday.com...

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

Take a look at this... Keep in mind this guy survived, in other words his account is PRIOR to the collapses...
www.libertyforum.org...

MEMPHIS, Tenn. - The FBI is investigating whether four New York men and one from Tennessee who are in custody here for illegally purchasing Tennessee driver's licenses may be members of an al-Qaida terrorist cell that helped survey New York's World Trade Center for the Sept. 11 hijackers.
When one of the men, Sakhera "Rocky" Hammad, was arrested, FBI agents found a security pass from the Trade Center dated Sept. 5. Agents also have learned that Hammad drove from New York to Memphis on Sept. 11.
So far, none of the five men, all of Middle Eastern origin, has been linked to any terrorist organization or to the Sept. 11 attacks, the FBI said.
But interest in the case spiked this week after Katherine Smith, the Tennessee state worker who allegedly sold the men driver's licenses, was found burned to death in her car one day before she was due to appear in court. Forensic specialists found gasoline inside Smith's car and on her clothing. She died from inhaling flames, one FBI agent testified.
None of the five men has been connected to her death.
After his arrest, Sakhera Hammad, 24, told FBI agents that he had a World Trade Center pass because he had worked as a plumber at the twin towers. He said he worked on the sprinkler system, and that Mahid Hammad also worked at the Trade Center....
Written by Peter Grier | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Reported by Monitor Staff
Tom Elliott was at work in his office at the Aon Corp., an insurance brokerage firm, on the 103rd floor of the World Trade Center's other, south tower. Most Aon employees did not straggle in until 9 a.m., but he liked to arrive around 8:30 and have a quiet cup of coffee while he checked his e-mail.
He was just typing in a response when a bright flash of light startled him, and a rumble shook the structure. Flames appeared to be crawling up the outside of the building, along with dark smoke and debris, burning paper and ash.
Mr. Elliott could feel heat coming through the windows. As far as he knew, it was his building, not the other tower, that was aflame. Oddly, no alarms were going off. The building emergency system was broadcasting no warning....Although its spectacularly televised impact was above Elliott, at first he and those around him thought an explosion had come from below. An incredible noise - he calls it an "exploding sound" - shook the building, and a tornado of hot air and smoke and ceiling tiles and bits of drywall came flying up the stairwell.
"In front of me, the wall split from the bottom up," he says. ...Elliott assumed his was one of the final groups descending. They saw only two firemen going up. They told them there had been an explosion near the 60th floor.

A power down the weekend before the attacks? Hmmmmmmmm
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

Feedback from the Progressive Review's Undernews for April 22, 2004.
We recieved the following from someone who worked for Fiduciary Trust on the 90th, 94-97th floors of the South Tower:
"On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ...
"Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower. I was at home on the morning of 9/11 on the shore of Jersey City, right opposite the Towers, and watching events unfold I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the weekend work."
Also see:
CBS News Channel Eyewitness Describes 'Secondary Explosions' in the WTC
prisonplanet.tv...
Some Survivors Say Bombs �Exploded in WTC�
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=245
Bombs inside the �World Trade Center� and the �Pentagon�
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1111
Evidence of Explosives in Twin Tower Collapse
vancouver.indymedia.org...
Visual Evidence of a Controlled Demolition
Video footage, ignored by the mainstream media that provides convincing evidence for bombs having been used to demolish the WTC. Click page left under Demolition, bottom of page: Squibs in 911 footage.
www.thewebfairy.com/911/index.htm

Marvin Bush runs one hell of a security company...

I wonder what happened to this link?
physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=22
Oddly enough a google search a year ago for WTC+squibs got thousands of hits, now it is 177...er 176 another one just bit the dust....

Originally posted by twitchy
Here is a good shot of the seismic readouts, not the 20x spikes before the collapses...
theunjustmedia.com...

That is the same graph as on the site that I just posted. In fact the graph on this site is a lot clearer and easier to read then the one that you just linked to.

In any case there is one and only one spike associated with each collapse.

Admit it, your seismic theories are hooey.

Originally posted by billybob
The two unexplained spikes are more than 20 times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University�s Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, �This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated.�

notice, howard, that ARTHUR LERNER-LAM, DIRECTOR of COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY'S center for hazards and risk research, DIDN'T say, 'there were NO siesmic spikes before the towers fell'?

�Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion,� Lerner-Lam said. �The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small.�

Last November, Lerner-Lam said: �During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage�but not causing significant ground shaking.�


so, howard. we're supposed to believe you over lerner-lam?

I just sent off an e-mail to Art Lerner-Lam asking him to comment on your version of his statements It will be quite interesting to find out what he has to say about the situation directly from him.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
In any case there is one and only one spike associated with each collapse.
Admit it, your seismic theories are hooey.

LOL Yes Roark, only one Major spike... AT THE BEGINNING OF EACH COLLAPSE. Not whent he 'freefalling' debris hits the ground. Do you know your left from your right? The left side of the graph is the earlier, the right is later. What's hooey is your assertion that the falling debris caused the largest spikes when your own evidence claerly shows this not to be the case.. still not addressing the dogs eh?

It would be very hard for conventional explosives to create the kind of dustclouds, total immolation of steel, concrete, Spire,flesh and bone
This demolition was undoubtedly created by Scalar interferometric type weaponry, key Tesla Howitzer
Look at Webfairy's slo-mo videos and you can sense the vibrational nature of the destruction

Originally posted by dh
It would be very hard for conventional explosives to create the kind of dustclouds, total immolation of steel, concrete, Spire,flesh and bone
This demolition was undoubtedly created by Scalar interferometric type weaponry, key Tesla Howitzer
Look at Webfairy's slo-mo videos and you can sense the vibrational nature of the destruction

I am familiar with the information you are presenting here, it is possible that a non-conventional technique was used but given CDI's involvement and the subsequent reports and evidence of explosions I think it is mroe likely to have been a thermite compound. The prolific dust clouds and lateral ejection of material, squibs and sesmic responses are indicitive of controlled demolition. Anything is possible though, well except for jet fuel melting steel, or planes surving impact for hours then collapsing...
An interesting connection that really has yet to be explored is the old show "Get Smart" which aried a show about the same time as the WTC ground breaking which featured Chaos planting explosives in government buildings during their construction, oddly enough the producer of the show was contacted by the CIA wanting to know where they had gotten their ideas from...

Um - yep Twitchy, I'm willing to see what you see
I'm fully in agreement with you there
But what I see from day one is an inexplicable vortex other than you see the materials involved reduced to their elemental forms
The structure was huge and even with conventionally placed destructive explosives there should have been some sideways tilting aand some outways destruction.
No - this was pure and simple integral destruction

Originally posted by twitchy

LOL Yes Roark, only one Major spike... AT THE BEGINNING OF EACH COLLAPSE. Not whent he 'freefalling' debris hits the ground. Do you know your left from your right? The left side of the graph is the earlier, the right is later. What's hooey is your assertion that the falling debris caused the largest spikes when your own evidence claerly shows this not to be the case.. still not addressing the dogs eh?

Don't you get it? That major spike IS the impact of the debris hitting the ground.

Look at the time expanded version of the 2nd collapse.




The seimic signal lasted over ten seconds. That is the big spike you keep pointing at. Anything after that is just noise, reverberations, resonance, echos.

Compare the magnitude of the airplane impacts with the collapse impact. Based on your interpetation, the seismic trace from the first airplane impact is greater than the seismic trace from the collapse. Do you honestly think that this is correct?

theunjustmedia.com...
If you can look at that graph and tell me you don't see the huge spikes at the beginning of each collapse, then you are beyond any hope roark. You sate yourself the scale repreesented is roughly ten seconds, what an amazing cooincidence, it took that ten seconds for the debris to hit the ground. Are you trying to say the debris hit the ground before it collapsed? I can't physically make your eyeballs focus on the large anamolous spikes, but if you don't see them then you need some glasses. Have you got anything else or are we going to keep running over the same spikes you can't see? Big spikes, left side at the beginning of the collapses, any questions?

Ok, let me try this one more time.



The FIrst Collapse



On the black line starting from the far left. about a half inch in you have the first "spike" but that spike is not really associated with the trace represented by the horizontal black line. That is the overlap from the second collapse which is on the trace below this which is not visible in the above image. The first graph here clearly illustrates this. If I had cut the above image from the graph on that linked page, the first line would be colored red.

So that first line is not a spike that is in any way associated with the first collapse. Do you see this and do you agree with this?

Now go back to the graph here.

Note the magnitude of the first airplane impact. Note that in the expanded view of the data on the second graph the vibrations of the impact taper off. Note that both of the time expanded red graphs in the second chart are set to the same time or x scale, but that the amplitude or the y scale for both is different (243 vrs 4545). Do you see this?

Now note the lines designating 10 minutes and 20 minutes. Note that they are approximately 2 inches apart (on my screen, anyway ). Note that the total length of the trace from the first collapse is a little over 0.25 inches or about 1.5 minutes long. Note that the the magnitude of the trace after the big spike is less then the magnitude of the aircraft impact.


Do you see this and do you agree with it?