A new take on Christianity and the singular path to heaven

reply to post by sacgamer25

I am so tired of John 14:6 is the absolute most overused, out of context, and misunderstood verse in the whole bible. It is the one verse that separates Christianity from Christ, although it should be the one verse that brings all men to him.

Well, that is because that people feel the need to reinterpretate what the Bible is saying mostly. And i am not talking about alegories etc.

First you need to understand he was not talking to you he was talking to his disciples; they knew he was the son of God.

Actually, it was the answer to Thomas who asked

“Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”

And His answer was :

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

As you can see from the above He was replying to Thomas. Here is question for you. Is that the same Thomas, that did not believe unless he could touch Jesus wounds? If you answer is yes, then why he did not believe even when the others told him, that they saw the Lord ? He knew and couldn´t believe ?

He was telling his disciples that no man comes to the father apart from Christ.

Have you noticed in the sentence says "except through me"? and not "except me" ? So how can you say something different other than that is written ?

The father and son are one. Anyone who knows the father knows the son. How can we know if someone has found the father?

Further in John 14 we read

7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

That answers you question.

Anyone who loves his brother knows God.

To be honest,you do not have to know God, in order to love your brother.

Buddha and Gandhi were men who taught that all men should love one another. If the only place that one can receive this message is Christ than you can be sure that in their pursuit of the father they have also found Christ. If they had not found Christ they could not be spreading a word of love that so closely mirrors the words of Christ.

Jesus at one point was asked:

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b.] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Ghandi and Buddha, might taught universal love, but Jesus words were different.

I have not come to bring a new interpretation, but rather to clarify what the bible clearly says.

Why do you want to clarify something that the Bible clearly says ? It doesn´t make any sense to be honest. And please do not misunderstand of what i am saying here.

Since Jesus is the author of all creation thus making him the author of the Bible,

Man inspired by God wrote the Bible. Jesus is the author of life.

we know that righteousness can be found both in and apart from scripture.

His words are found in scripture and not out of the scripture.

Peace

reply to post by sacgamer25

I am providing you with a message about Christ that truly supports the message of one God and one way to him. I realize that some of what I say is radically different than what you have heard.

To my knowledge all the messages that Jesus provided, are to be found in the Bible. I have nothing against a message about Jesus. But that message must be according to the scripture and not out of the scripture. If is not according to the scripture then it´s not consistend and will lead most probably to misundertandings. And trust me, i have heard many incredible things.

You simply cannot Google many of the things I say, proving that these concepts are truly new to us.

Actually, there is nothing new under the sun. Everything is said and written down. What you make of those writtings is up to you. But the thing is that no matter how you twist it, the truth always stands by it´s own merit.

I say new to us because I think this is the message that caused the crusades.

No. The reason for the Crusades was not about a message. The real reason behind the Crusades was Power. Also did you know that the crusades started as retaliation to Muslim/Othomanic Crusades ?

Men like me who were given the ability to see that no religion could be the right religion. Religion separates us from the truth, that there is one God and we are all his children. The bible says walk away from anyone who does not want to accept this truth.

No my friend. You should not trouble your mind about religion. You should care for those in need. Whether there are orphans, widows, troubled, hungry, thirsty etc.That my friend is true religion. Afterall on the Judgement Day we will give account for our actions Matthew 25:31-46

The bible says all men will be fooled even the elect if that was possible. The message of original sin that you are somehow bound to and therefore unable to overcome, do you really believe that is what the loving Jesus died for? Doesn't this sound more like Satan? He is the one who tempts us so it is only fitting for him to make us believe that we are powerless to resist him.

The great deception as is mentioned in the Revelation deserves a thread on its own. As for the original sin. It´s quite hard to explain it with few words but i will try. The Bible teaches that sin is death. Man sinned when disobeyed God´s commandment. The result of that "Original Sin" was death. No eternal life. Then Jesus came and overcame death with His resurrection. And now we are not under the curse of death. That is what Jesus did.

In Genesis 4:7 God tells Cain that he must overcome sin and master it.Multiple times after Jesus heals someone he tells them to go away and SIN NO MORE. Is Jesus setting them up for failure, according to Christian Dogma it is impossible for Cain to overcome sin and master it and impossible for anyone to go away and sin no more.

The point of which God was making to Cain, to put it simply was like this : I know you are angry with your brother, but control yourself, if you don´t the sin will come to knock on your door. So what Cain did? He kill his brother because he was angry. Isn´t that somehow similar to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:28 ?

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I am here to bring the message that leads to repentance and allows you to overcome and defeat sin just as we are instructed to do. You reject my message, why?

You cannot overcome sin alone. Everyone is failing, but the good news is that we have a mediator between us and the Father and His name is Jesus Christ.

Peace

reply to post by Joecroft


99.9% of us need scripture. The bible doesn't mention too many men that were righteous apart from scripture. I imagine there are not too many men that are righteous apart from scripture. Even Gandhi read and studied the bible, he even loves the message of Christ. But like me he did not believe that Christianity the religion represented any of the messages of Christ. Thus he rejected Christ as his savior not based on the bible but based on religion.

I imagine I would struggle with the same thing Gandhi did if I had not been born into a Christian house. God made it easy for me to find the truth in his son, because I have believed in it since I was a child. I just didn't practice it or study it until my 30s.

I imagine that in our time he is the one man other than maybe MLK that has had a major influence on the image of world peace. Oh I count the whole 60s movement also. I'm sure there are more but those are the two men that stick out most in my mind.

Originally posted by Seed76

Since Jesus is the author of all creation thus making him the author of the Bible,

Man inspired by God wrote the Bible. Jesus is the author of life.

we know that righteousness can be found both in and apart from scripture.

His words are found in scripture and not out of the scripture.

Jesus is the Word by which ALL things were created...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" ~ John 1:1

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I am here to bring the message that leads to repentance and allows you to overcome and defeat sin just as we are instructed to do. You reject my message, why?

You're right about needing to preach the message that leads to repentance, but if you're not asking for repentance from the one true God, it's not going to get you very far. Asking for repentance from men or other Buddhists isn't going to clear you with God.

What does the one true God mean anyway? Can you define God?

There is only one God. His son is the light of this world. Anyone who seeks the light will find it. Jesus has many names and he is perfectly capable of responding to any of the names he has been given. Everyone who believes in something spiritual that points towards loving your neighbor as yourself has found the message from that one God.

In the entire bible the most import message is to seek God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Gandhi sought God and loved his not only his neighbor but his enemy as well. How can you read about the things he did and still believe he did not find God? This should be common sense, we shouldn't even need to argue about it.

I bringing you the message of Christ found in the OT that reconciles all things to the truth. But you don't want to let go of the message that separates us.

reply to post by sacgamer25

99.9% of us need scripture. The bible doesn't mention too many men that were righteous apart from scripture. I imagine there are not too many men that are righteous apart from scripture. Even Gandhi read and studied the bible, he even loves the message of Christ. But like me he did not believe that Christianity the religion represented any of the messages of Christ. Thus he rejected Christ as his savior not based on the bible but based on religion.

What in the world are you talking about?

Gandhi rejected the Bible when he rejected these things....

- Gandhi was "never interested in the historical Jesus", nor in the virgin birth, miracles, etc.
- Gandhi did not take as literally true that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God
- Gandhi says the historic Jesus who only died once 2,000 years ago is no help
- Gandhi did not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead
- Gandhi said that Jesus had psychic powers and that his miracles were magic
- Gandhi sees Jesus as an example, a rule of life, he says "Jesus represents not a person, but the principle of nonviolence"

Just out of curiosity, how many more times are you going to contradict yourself on how important or not important scripture is?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

The version of the bible does not matter, and I will not debate that today. This conversation leads only to separation and the creation of religion, neither of which I want to be a part of.

Yes it does. a majority of Bibles out there are missing many verses and have added words that are not in the copies of the originals that are available today.

In Ps 12:6, 7 God says he will preserve his words to all generations. If he is true to his word then there is one of the 350 plus bibles in English. English being the trade language of today. Compare them and see for yourself. I will give you a hint. Only on has a built in dictionary. Only one has a supernatural cross referencing system. Only one contains all the verses of the copies of the originals available today. Only one has places where God had to inspire the translators to make correct translations. Only one has the approval of God marked on it by being the one used to lead more to Christ than all the others combined.

reply to post by Murgatroid

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Jesus is the Word by which ALL things were created...
]

Jesus is NOT the Word, and neither is "The Word". The Word is FIRST, than became God which is why John 1 mentions the WORD in the beginning THEN God...

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

It talks about the nature of God and then later on says...

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

There was The Word, then God, then The Flesh that the word dwells in (Jesus)...

Originally posted by arpgme
Jesus is NOT the Word, and neither is "The Word". The Word is FIRST, than became God which is why John 1 mentions the WORD in the beginning THEN God...

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

It talks about the nature of God and then later on says...

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

There was The Word, then God, then The Flesh that the word dwells in (Jesus)...

God works through words.

Words must be SPOKEN...

Jesus is the member of the Godhead responsible for all physical matter.

Jesus is the Word because He was the means through which the Father brought all physical reality into existence

...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. ~ Heb. 1:2

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ~ 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ ~ Ephesians 3:9

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ~ Colossians 1:16-17

Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed ~ Proverbs 13:13

reply to post by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
I imagine that in our time he is the one man other than maybe MLK that has had a major influence on the image of world peace. Oh I count the whole 60s movement also. I'm sure there are more but those are the two men that stick out most in my mind.

It’s interesting though, because Gandhi is said to have gotten his ideas from Jesus, and of course Martin Luther King, was an evangelical preacher, as well as human rights activist. So in a sense, they were both influenced, by the essence and Character of Jesus.

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
But like me he did not believe that Christianity the religion represented any of the messages of Christ.

Well, it’s difficult for me to know where to go from here. I think you would really have to set up another thread, talking about which parts of Christianity, you don’t believe represents Christ. Otherwise I’m kind of in the dark, as too how too respond to your post.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Concepts I don't agree with.

Believe Jesus is the son of God who came in the flesh, do nothing and your saved.

Contradicted here

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You actually have to believe the words he said and you do this by putting them into practice. Faith without deeds is no faith at all.

Original sin.

This concept simply does not exist and contradicted here.

Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Inability to fully defeat sin until after physical death.

Contradicted in the passages below.

Genesis 4:6 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

John 8:11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 8:34, 36 Whosoever 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

There are others but these are some fundamental problems, where the church teaches a message that directly contradicts versus in the bible and leaves you with the need for some sort of special interpretation that becomes more confusing than clarifying.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
Concepts I don't agree with.

Believe Jesus is the son of God who came in the flesh, do nothing and your saved.

Contradicted here

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You actually have to believe the words he said and you do this by putting them into practice. Faith without deeds is no faith at all

Doesn’t Paul, kind of cancel that out, with the verse below…

Romans 10:2-4

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Btw- I’m not saying I completely accept this, just curious as to how you see it. Because I never quote Paul, as I usually only stick with Jesus words.

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
Original sin.

This concept simply does not exist and contradicted here.


Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Well, interestingly enough, I don’t accept the “original sin” premise either, and have my own unique reasons for doing so.

God actually declares some men righteous in the Old Testament.

And in the following verses…

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

And…

Luke 5:31-32
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Which to me at least, suggests that some people out there, are actually righteous!. And I believe this is because, they already keep God’s Commandments. Which is what following Jesus, is really all about IMO.

Originally posted by Sacgamer25

Inability to fully defeat sin until after physical death.

Contradicted in the passages below.

Genesis 4:6 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

John 8:11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 8:34, 36 Whosoever 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

There are others but these are some fundamental problems, where the church teaches a message that directly contradicts versus in the bible and leaves you with the need for some sort of special interpretation that becomes more confusing than clarifying.

Again, I completely agree with you, to some extent. I believe sin can be overcome before death. Becoming born again and realizing what you are spiritually etc, is why that verse states, that the born of God, cannot go on sinning. Those who believe by faith, and haven’t yet become born again, can be righteous, by keeping the commandments, just on faith alone. Although being born of spirit is what sets people free, ultimately IMO.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
Concepts I don't agree with.

Believe Jesus is the son of God who came in the flesh, do nothing and your saved.

Contradicted here

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You actually have to believe the words he said and you do this by putting them into practice. Faith without deeds is no faith at all

Doesn’t Paul, kind of cancel that out, with the verse below…

Romans 10:2-4

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Btw- I’m not saying I completely accept this, just curious as to how you see it. Because I never quote Paul, as I usually only stick with Jesus words.

I would say Paul is talking about the Jews here, the Pharisees and Sadducees. They were attempting to obtain righteousness on merit, they ranked themselves against themselves. You see they became their own level of righteousness and thus became their own God's. Collectively that is.

Jesus came to free us from this law of righteousness and to teach a true righteousness which is the love from the father. Grace, spiritual rebirth, coming back into the arms of the father so that he may teach you to live righteously by obeying the law of love. For those of us struggling to love we just have to do what he said. He left the manual.

Turn the other cheek. Repent for your sin. Forgive everyone, have mercy for everyone, give to everyone. See Paul is saying forget the law it's worthless. You will never learn to forgive, or have mercy by obeying the law.

These are things you just have to do. If you do them he will reward you with Joy. Feel the Joy and pursue it like there is nothing else in the world that matters. Then you will learn how to love, because you will feel the love of the father inside you.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
I would say Paul is talking about the Jews here, the Pharisees and Sadducees. They were attempting to obtain righteousness on merit, they ranked themselves against themselves. You see they became their own level of righteousness and thus became their own God's. Collectively that is.

Further down, in the verse I quoted, in my other post, Paul says the following…

Roman 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

In this verse above, Paul is saying that faith and belief, are what’s important to be saved, and not deeds. Although of course, deeds are meant to be the fruits of ones faith, but the deeds themselves, aren’t regarded as the things, which actually save you, according to standard Pauline doctrine…

Anyway, this doesn’t seem to fit, with what you’re saying below. Which is why I originally brought up Romans 10…

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
Concepts I don't agree with.

Believe Jesus is the son of God who came in the flesh, do nothing and your saved.

Contradicted here

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You actually have to believe the words he said and you do this by putting them into practice. Faith without deeds is no faith at all

Paul teaches that salvation through Jesus, is a free gift, through grace, and that all ones has to do to obtain it, is to believe on Jesus. There is no mention of having to do good deeds, to obtain grace!


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

6 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

The key to Roman's 10 lies in the verses 14-15. If someone hears the true message of Christ and believes in it with their heart and confesses it with their mouth they will be saved. This is a true statement when placed in this context.

What I am saying is they have not heard the good news, because no one was sent to teach them.

I am saying Jesus came to tell us that there is only one father and we are all his children. I am also saying that God and Jesus are in all of us who obey the law to love one another. Personally I believe that their spirits reside in all men all the time, but I will accept the argument that they leave us when we are in sin. I simply believe that we feel like they are away from us because our sinful actions place a veil of fear over our eyes so we can no longer feel the presence of the lord while we are in our sin.

I am saying that I believe in a young earth and creation. I believe in the one that came to take away the sin of the world. Not to merely forgive sin but to take it away. The Christ in the bible has the power to completely heal a man so that he no longer desires sin but only desires righteous living.

The church teaches that Christ came only to forgive, that man is stuck in his sinful nature and we can only do the best we can do.

You see if you proclaim that you believe in a Christ that is less powerful than the truth have you been saved? What are you being saved from? Why is a man condemned if he does not believe? You are being saved from sin, if you don't believe that Christ can take away your sin and replace your desire to sin with desire for righteous living then you are condemned to continue to be trapped in sin. Because you have not believed in God's one and only son. You have not believed that he can/will take away your sin today.

99% of the bible and the message is about today, and every day is today. However, most Christians are waiting for the end of the ages to be judged and raised free from sin. Judgment is today and every day is today. You can be judged, die, and be raised today, free from the bondage of sin.

Most Christians don't believe in the Christ I believe in. I found my Christ in the words in the bible, they found there Christ from a man that needs their money to eat.

Don't you have to believe that Christ can free you from the bond age of sin for him to be able to? I am claiming that the current interpretation given by the church takes away power from the cross. They cannot receive the power that they have yet to believe in.

The truth of the Gospel was hidden from the Pharisees and Sadducees by their greed and self righteousness. They could not find the law of love at work behind their law. I make the same claim today that the truth has been hidden from the Church leaders, who in their greed take more from the church than the basic necessities.

The truth is never reveled to anyone who thinks they can gain profit from the gift of the lord.

Acts 8:18-23 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

1 Timothy 6:3- 10 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

I hope this makes since?

reply to post by sacgamer25


I’m sorry, I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say, specifically in regards to my last question; But I do agree with some of the things you said, but it’s quite a big post covering many areas…

You see for me, there are 2 aspects to this. One, is people who don’t know Jesus, and yet keep the 10 Commandments; who could arguable be called righteous, at least, by Old Testament Standards. And then there are those who’ve broken the Commandments, (of course Christianity teaches that all, are already sinners) but have just come to believe in Jesus. Now at that point in time, they haven’t done any good deeds, except believe in Him. And Paul states, that they are saved, on that alone!

So when you say they can’t just believe in Jesus, and do nothing, and be saved, what do you really mean?

I’ll ask you the same question, but in a slightly different way.

How can what you wrote below…

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
Concepts I don't agree with.

Believe Jesus is the son of God who came in the flesh, do nothing and your saved.

Contradicted here

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You actually have to believe the words he said and you do this by putting them into practice. Faith without deeds is no faith at all

Be reconciled, with what Paul says in Romans 10:1-10 or 10:11-15

Romans 10:2-10
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.”

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)

7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 10:11-15
11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Let me try this from a human standpoint so you better understand.

I have a friend named John Doe; he is a millionaire philanthropist who speaks to God. He did a few miracles so that we know he speaks to God and he said that God loves you so if you believe I am his son you go to heaven.

Now someone believed me. They believed in Jon, they even spoke it with their mouth and everything. They believe in this John Doe.

But alas I lied to you. So what did you believe? Let's just say John is a man of God and I only lied a little do you really believe in John? No you believe in my version of John.

What John actually said was if you believe what I am saying you will do what I am doing. One of his friends even said he heard John saying faith without deeds is dead. The other thing John said that I forgot to mention is this. He said if you actually do what he said, God will make you a new man that has a heart to only pursue him, and he will give you the tools you need to defeat sin just like he did. When you do this you also will be able to speak to God.

If I proclaim this with my mouth and heart am I not much more saved than believing the first story that left out the most important parts?

Do you get it? They have accepted a lie about Jesus as the truth. They fully believe in the Jesus that is based on the lie. Are they saved if they believe the lie? I imagined in a bit of God's Irony they will receive exactly what they believe they will receive. Resurrection upon actual physical death. When what we should expect is to receive spiritual resurrection so that we may live today.

They have yet to accept the true Jesus, the one who came to free them, through spiritual resurrection, not some distant day in the future but today. If you don't believe in God's one and only son then you are condemned already. Condemned to not receive the spiritual resurrection and rebirth free from the chains of sin that bound us to our hell.

This freedom is a free gift for all who believe.

reply to post by sacgamer25



I think it’s time for me to put my cards on the table, so to speak. You see, I actually agreed with everything you said, in your, 3 bullet pointed reply. But, I find that Paul’s message in Romans 10, is contradictory to it. That’s why I was asking you, what you thought about Romans 10…

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
What John actually said was if you believe what I am saying you will do what I am doing.

Yes exactly, which is why I actually agree with what you wrote below…

Originally posted by Sacgamer25
Concepts I don't agree with.

Believe Jesus is the son of God who came in the flesh, do nothing and your saved.

You actually have to believe the words he said and you do this by putting them into practice. Faith without deeds is no faith at all

And Jesus actually agrees with you also, in the following verses…

John 14:21
Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them."

John :15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

But IMO Romans 10, combined with the concept of “original sin”, appears to go against Jesus own message. Especially Romans 10:4 where Paul states that Christ is the end of the Law. When it’s more like Christ is the fulfillment and the beginning of the Law.

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Yes, so you get it? Only one way I found to get it but I don't put it past a man like Gandhi to have figured out that Christ was speaking the truth. Maybe he only sees him as a great profit but as long as they do what he said I think that is enough for Christ to reveal himself. Again this would never have worked for me. I had to learn everything the hard way. It was understanding what he was asking me to do that lead me to him. And I could only figure that out through the words of Christ.