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posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by hawkiye
 


What rights exactly have you lost during your lifetime? I am nearly 50 and cannot think of a single one that I have lost.


Are you seriously asking this question? The right to be secure in person and property, The right to habeas corpus, the right to freely travel, the right to not be imprisoned without due process, the right to counsel trial by jury the right to counsel, that right to confront ones accusers. the right to keep and bear the arms of my choice and a few more I can't think if at the moment. The government has unlawfully granted itself authority to deny me those rights in a series of bills. And banning some guns does not preserve my right to keep an bear arms when it leave me defenseless against tyranny. Shall not be infringed has already been violated. Sayin you still have the right is like saying if you put a little cat urine in your drink you still have a pretty good drink


I see a HUGE difference between the press and the current spate of Internet warriors who are at the root of this problem. The press, tactful or tactless as they can be, are accountable for their actions - directly. Not only in reputation but in terms of culpability as well. They can be sued or forced to print a retraction. They don't hide behind Internet handles and IP masking programs, stirring up trouble that they believe they'll never be put in a position to have to answer for.

It is a very different concept entirely. In truth every justification I've seen for this utter nonsense wouldn't even qualify as a strawman - as strawmen arguments, in theory, at least must make some sort of deductive sense.

~Heff



How is the media camping out in front of peoples houses for days so they cannot even come out to get the mail or newspaper without being harassed and hounded any different? Also I am not justifying someone doing something stupid that is another false argument. And still you ignore my main point that it is politicians using that actions of a few idiots to justify taking away rights. that is the real problem.
Ummm....I couldn't agree with you more...But you have to remember that...Hefficide...voted FOR all of those fine things you just stated. It's not too hard to see why he would feel that...it's all good...now is it? As for the OP, again, as you stated, the MSM hounds people to DEATH...remember Princess Diana? Not only that, they ruin peoples lives by running with whatever drug induced fantasy they choose to air.....remember how many different stories came out of Sandy Hook?

YouSir
edit on 8-2-2013 by YouSir because: O for too




posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 07:00 AM
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I spend day in and day out (well from 8-5 mostly, I do have two jobs and am currently injured) taking complaints and investigating abuses of people's Constitutional rights, and I have to say with the exception of some people citing Alex Jones here and there which automatically makes me raise an eyebrow, about 1-100 complaints are valid Civil Rights complaints.. Most are just people that perceive a violation of the Bill of Rights without actually realizing what the document says..

Now don't get me wrong, I've arrested about 7 TSA screeners over the past few years for stepping over the line, but for the most part, people are as protected by law today as they were 200 years ago, the laws have simply evolved with the time, and in some cases, are still lagging behind.

To those who don't think "real conspiracy theorists" harass people, take a wander over to Cluesforum and just read the sickening crap they post about Sandy Hook. Some of them want to take pilgrimages to Newtown and start harassing every Family they come across to accuse them of being actors. Take a look at this guy Dallas Goldbug who claims he has uncovered which actors are playing which parent and which child, these are not Government Shills or Trolls these are people who genuinely believe the tripe they put forward.

As long as we are a Republic, I will have a job,and since i haven't been told that i'm fired, or that my job is being removed, I think it's safe to say, Heff is correct, we haven't really lost any rights, we've just seen the potential to, and the hyperactive paranoia stating we have.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
It addresses exactly why so many of us ( I am speaking as a member, not a staffer here ) are literally physically sickened by the lengths that some of our co-members will go to just to have "the scoop" apparently.



I agree. There's a difference between questioning something for the "truth" and harassing people for the "truth". The people you're talking about IMO seem to think it's ok to harass people until they admit to what they're being pressed for to admit. Coercion in other words. As if the person doing the harassing won't be satisfied until he/she hears what they want to. ( Online....offline.....it doesn't matter. The truth isn't out there. It's behind closed doors.)

That's getting to the truth about as much as the MSM not doing any questioning at all. When they do though with their "surface" attempts, at least they have the credentials to do so. They're trained in the ways public interaction AND perception. On either side of that coin I think it's best to look at a situation and assess it without bias and with no large amount of outside influence so you can come to an informed decision. I doubt that will never happen though because that requires people to be comfortable with, and certain about, their own thought processes and decision making abilities. As it stands, people on either side of the coin are too dependent on other peoples' opinions for validation about theirs. It's ok to want to fit in with your surroundings, but not to the point where you lose your own identity. Assuming you even know what that is to begin with.

Nobody is sure of themselves anymore so they go out of their way to find what they consider to be faults in other people. You're right Heff, it is sickening. It's that feeling you get when pity turns to contempt.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by Evil_Santa
 


There is no point in Aurora or Connecticut that had anything to do with the general public, and especially the more awake members of it. The perpetrators are is evil pestilence running the world, and in specific the US portion of it, though they seem to have many birds of a feather in power globally. They're the ones who did that and every other horror on earth. Sick bunch of extremely evil (doers).

Its not sane to not be aware of the world.
edit on 8-2-2013 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)


See, I think this is one part of the concern for the innocent people caught up in this. First there is talk about "evil pestilence" and the like. Next people are using that terminology to describe specific victims who are allegedly involved in this.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by jimmiec
It is little wonder that society has bred conspiracy theorists. We stood idly by while the political parties tell one lie after another for political gain and to push their collective agendas. The media has taken sides and can not be entrusted with informing the citizenry of the facts. This has been going on for over half a century,if not longer. The information age has put the business of information and disinformation into overdrive. The world no longer trusts the information they get from any source. It was a foregone conclusion that it would eventually breed extremists. The world is literally bipolar.


I love that last line. The world is bipolar. Nice.






posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
literally physically sickened by the lengths that some of our co-members will go to just to have "the scoop" apparently.

Yeah. I wonder what drives people to do such things...

*cough...



...cough
*



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by vkey08


To those who don't think "real conspiracy theorists" harass people, take a wander over to Cluesforum and just read the sickening crap they post about Sandy Hook. Some of them want to take pilgrimages to Newtown and start harassing every Family they come across to accuse them of being actors. Take a look at this guy Dallas Goldbug who claims he has uncovered which actors are playing which parent and which child, these are not Government Shills or Trolls these are people who genuinely believe the tripe they put forward.


Right here. ^^^^^

I posted some scathing things I found on other sites ( paraphrased of course) and its insane thinking and actions. This was from the paranormal community and the truly insane things some are saying and doing.... because they believe the tripe they put forward. Its been the same on crime/sleuthing boards. Im sure some of us here remember the WM3 and that whole witch hunt.. on BOTH sides of that case. Even the side that was correct in one sense ( the innocense of the 3) went berzerk on filmed witch hunts and spewed insane "theories" that ruined some folks' lives. Jon Benet Ramsey.. nutballs basically stalking and torturing innocent parties for YEARS. Polly Klass... same thing initially. Horrific things spewed as FACT. Its WRONG.. just basically wrong as a human being to do these things.

I dont know about the legality of it... mainly because the folks in the various communities have changed SO much over the yrs.. theyve become fantastical and uncivil. They think they know things they dont, and if you DO have an education and experience in whatever subject and inform them.. they go off on you because your factual info defies their insane ramblings! They truly believe everything that they post is profound and very sane. Legality aside, isnt it more conducive for one's argument to at the very least have ONE foot in reality? Not these days.. and yes, it HAS changed over the yrs. Here on ATS even. My previous acct was made in 2007. Id been a part of the conspiracy/paranormal/sleuth/etc communities for quite some time before that begining with dial up BBS. People HAVE changed and there is much more disjointed and fantastical thought applied to CT now. Today, everyone is spewing profound thoughts and are super sleuths... just another form of glory hounding and not much different from the 15 minutes crowd IMO.

Where the line of harassment is concerned, I think its VERY clear. Your line of freedom ENDS when someone else's line of privacy begins. Some should figure out they arent investigators and obviously dont know how its done. It may not be a LAW, but its common human decency and mature thinking. I was one of the first people on here to tell one member to calm down with his hysterical rantings that lasted for HOURS on every thread for weeks ( and still) about not questioning the story in Sandy Hook... the chain swings both ways on here. We CAN have civil conversations on ATS concerning theories.. regardless of what said member believes.. but some need to figure out what a theory is, and make fact based arguments rather than wild conjecture and engage in stalking obsessive behaviors.

An example of obsession : a member on here was obsessing over other members who told them that what they were posting was BS.. and was obsessive.. and wrong. This member gathered info on the members here in a clever manner.. and was trying to pretend that most of us caling for civility are "shills" etc... including ATS itself. If a stalker is stalking, that behavior doesnt only center on "scary govt", faulty reported tragedies, or 9/11... that behavior is an ingrained method of dealing withthe world.. and YOU are fair game as well.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by glen200376
 


It's one thing to willingly go on a TV program to be interviewed, and another to get harassed at your home because someone decided to post your address online simply because you said something they don't like.

As for movie and TV actors, I feel like, at this point in the game, you know what you are in for when you decide you want to be a movie star. You can't all of a sudden cry foul when something that happens and has happened to everyone before you goes down. Is it right, no, but if you go to Hollywood and aren't prepared for that type of thing, it's your own fault.
edit on 8-2-2013 by DarkKnight76 because: Edit



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by CirqueDeTruth
 


Well I'm glad somebody got it! Your a smart cookie!



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 09:08 AM
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I don't have much to say on the issue of Sandy Hook. Other than it was an unspeakable tragedy, and my heart goes out to the victims who lost loved ones in that unfortunate madness.

But, it does bring the conspiracy theory ring into the spotlight. If conspiracy theory sites like these, can help identify erratic, bizarre behavior - should a monitoring system at least be responsible for investigating abnormal, aggressive and hostile posters?

I like to play devil's advocate, but what is more, I'm one of those individuals who actually believe that the government should work for the people, including - providing a safe environment in which to live and raise my kids. What are you all so afraid of? What is your alternative? Mill about just getting along with no government in place? Want to see how that goes for awhile? I mean come on!

If you do nothing wrong, and are exercising simply your ability to use your mind and interchange ideas with other like people, then you really have nothing to worry about.

Now that aggressive, off his hinges poster who talks about perpetuating acts of violence - I guess we should just let them go about their way too - and just hope he's not another unhinged mind about to commit atrocious acts of violence in actual life. If I was those families of these shootings where the shooter was known for posting in sites like these, I'd be demanding to know which online sites egged and encouraged the shooter on. (I can't remember which of these cases actually had uncovered the shooter was part of a conspiracy forum, but I want to say it was Colorado). Those sites are partly responsible in my opinion, for not doing their civic duty in identifying a possibly dangerous individual - publicly planning a mass shooting? And no one thought to report this individual? I guess his freedoms would have been breached, huh? I mean, come on people!

I'm really on the fence with all this, actually. I'm a bit of an oddball myself, and I'd hate for any government individual coming to my home questioning me about something I might have said online. But I'll take my medicine and swallow it, if it helps identify just one potential home-bred terrorist, who might be targeting my child's school.

Peace,
Cirque



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 09:10 AM
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You know, we talk a lot about becoming awakened, aware, and having our eyes opened on this website. going from being deluded or ignorant to being informed and conscious. I think we often forget to turn that gaze inward toward ourselves and our little (or not so little anymore) community here, and really open our eyes to things about the world of conspiracy theory that aren't necessarily comfortable or reinforcing to our worldviews.

While it's always been a subliminal knowledge somewhere in the back of my mind, recently I have begun to see clearly for the first time that there are some - not all, and not even many necessarily, but some - who in addition to (or perhaps as a result of or as the inspiration for) speculating, thinking, and communicating with others about alternative possibilities, also harbor a deep strain of aggressive paranoia. What do I mean by aggressive paranoia? The kind of paranoia that goes beyond suspicion of conspiracy, and crosses the line into in my opinion irrational acts towards others. Viewing any dissent from their position in the CT spectrum as a direct threat to them or their principles somehow, and how that means they "need to act." A willingness to actually threaten, harass, and even advocate the deaths, of people. The outing of personal information. Incitement of violence. Etc. etc.

Maybe I'm naive. Maybe I want to see the best in people. Perhaps I've just finally had one of those eye opening awakenings we always talk about. But instead of seeing God or transcending or realizing we're being visited by ET, I've realized that as much as we like to bristle against the very suggestion, there are some who really are dangerous or potentially dangerous in communities like ATS. Because the subject matter is often so fear driven, so elaborate, and so amorphous such that it can be shaped into many different conclusions, all of which will receive some level of reinforcement or support irrespective of evidence, it suddenly becomes crystal clear to me how mental illness might emerge, or at least thrive and become reinforced, in a communities like ATS and others.

Usually this is something benign. Take asteroid DA14 2012. There have been multiple recent close approaches. Every time, someone inevitably suggests that there's a cover up and that it's going to hit. People challenge that assertion by pointing out that the world's amateur and professional astronomical communities are too large, diverse, and independent for that to be possible. That anyone with even a ten inch telescope can see this object. That the rationale for "avoiding panic" doesn't necessarily make sense, because they warn us about other impending disasters (tsunamis, disease outbreaks, potentially significant solar flares, hurricanes, etc.) That if they had the power to suppress such a broad array of people all over the world and hide the threat posed by this objects, they wouldn't be served by telling us about its existence in the first place. That their projections for the paths of previous objects have always agreed with the eventual confirmed reality. Etc. Yet people still have either 1) a fear that it will hit us anyway and is being covered up, or 2) a need to believe that it will for whatever reason.

Which is fine. Everyone's beliefs are their prerogative and I respect that personal right. But what about when the level of paranoia rises beyond something benign like this, and approaches a feeling of personal peril? Peril great enough to lead one to act to defend oneself. Great enough to make one see looming threats dangerous enough that they must physically act against other human beings to protect themselves from it. When there is no evidence of such a threat, but the belief in it is powerful enough to provoke such acts, then there is a very serious problem.

My instinctive knee jerk response to such a suggestion is typically to defend our community and those like it against those insinuations. After all, of course the evil, tyrannical "powers that be" want to paint us in that light, right? So naturally we oppose such aspersions. But that doesn't mean there isn't an element of truth to such concerns, and I find that I can no longer deny that those strains of instability exist and may propagate through conspiracy oriented and fringe oriented communities, try as I might.

We must be cautious not to go too far in the other direction once we've made that discovery, of course. We can't start seeing mental illness everywhere we look, anymore than we should be paranoid enough to see conspiracy everywhere we look. But to deny that it exists at all is not consistent with the increasingly apparent reality in my opinion.

Things like Sandy Hook and other recent issues have brought this to the forefront in a clear way that I haven't seen before. Or perhaps was blind to before, as I humbly concede may be the case. No more, however.

Peace.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 09:28 AM
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The OP makes a very valid point. One might say that the phenomenon he described, of the harassment of witnesses of controversial events might almost been seen as a broadening of the role of the paparazzi.

Photographs are no longer enough. The conspirazzi want disclosure and will stop at nothing to get it.

I think people have to face up to the facts of social and political tectonics. When continents collide there is friction. Some of the questions we deal with in our forums are very serious. I realize that infractions of "etiquette" on the street could well lead to retaliation by means of legal restrictions online, but I don't think that is necessarily avoidable anyway, no matter how polite conspiracy theorists might be.

At some point the conspirazzi will stop asking for disclosure.

The mere fact of their appearance tells us where we are in the process of righting a lot of wrongs in America. People know that there is an urgent need for change. America is becoming a pressure cooker. People are starting to act on their own initiative.

Doing so brings up a new set of modalities in the truth/protest/occupy movement and counter modalities in the corporatist/militarist/banksterist counter-movement. It's a new ball game.

We just have to navigate as best we can.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
reply to post by Hefficide
 


I thought the same thing when Alex Jones was on Piers Morgan ranting and raving about Sandy Hook and gun rights. He came across as a babbling fool who wanted nothing more than a platform to spew his words to the nation.


Because he is. But he will gladly take your money and support.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by DelMarvel

Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by Evil_Santa
 



See, I think this is one part of the concern for the innocent people caught up in this. First there is talk about "evil pestilence" and the like. Next people are using that terminology to describe specific victims who are allegedly involved in this.


How easily do you see the word tyranny used. And yet not one of you has been disappeared or imprisioned. Nor are you going to be. The disconnect from reality from sites like this and the users is scary.



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by muircertach

Originally posted by DelMarvel

Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by Evil_Santa
 



See, I think this is one part of the concern for the innocent people caught up in this. First there is talk about "evil pestilence" and the like. Next people are using that terminology to describe specific victims who are allegedly involved in this.


How easily do you see the word tyranny used. And yet not one of you has been disappeared or imprisioned. Nor are you going to be. The disconnect from reality from sites like this and the users is scary.


Don't you think it would be kind of difficult to show people you were disappeared or imprisoned, if that were the case?

Plenty of members have vanished on ATS. We had many members who were high ranking that suddenly stopped posting.
edit on 8-2-2013 by nomnom because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2013 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Hefficide
 





What rights exactly have you lost during your lifetime? I am nearly 50 and cannot think of a single one that I have lost.


You must wear a seat belt, no fishing without a license, put on a helmet, you have to pay for health care or you will be fined,no trespassing , keep off the grass, don't spit on the sidewalk, where is your hunting license?

Can't add on to your home without a permit, you could go on forever, no smoking...........................

When I was a young teen me and my boyfriends went down to the river shooting, that wouldn't happen now days.

I think many of us are to young to remember when the field and plains, and streams and land, were free,
then they started putting fences up.

We don't know real freedom.

How much has really changed?

Ya can't raise chickens within the city limits either, but you could when I was a kid.

edit on 102828p://bThursday2013 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)
edit on 102828p://bThursday2013 by Stormdancer777 because: peace love and light eeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Yep your are very observant in the above post.......you have me humming and singing in my head now.....

Sign Sign everywhere a Sign don't do this don't do that Can't you read the Sign......

Star.

Regards Iwinder



posted on Feb, 9 2013 @ 12:43 AM
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So what you are saying is that zealotry needs to be moderated. One's belief in their position being absolutely correct can lead to some unsavory behavior. The problem with a zealot is that unsavory behavior is acceptable, Anything is acceptable. in the pursuit of their belief. I think this is pretty obvious and the practice is becoming more wide spread in today's world.

There is another aspect to you post that i didn't pick up on at first. and that is, the tactics and offenses you decry, are not necessarily coming from one so committed to the ideas as they are from those who would use the idea as a platform to exercise their investigatory or journalistic chops. Now my idea here is that these people have become so sold on the omnipresent nature of illusion that they are looking at the occupation of exposing illusion as a possible life's work. The real problem here is reality. or what is more generally accepted as being likely. Often in their urge to expose illusion they fly wildly in the face of what is pretty much a certainty in the generally accepted view. It is again that word zealotry, and the disregard for any contrary possibility, that prompts a repressive response.

I applaud your disdain of any negative personal response that may result from your own association with alternative thinking on what really is. and share your concerns for the privilege or right we enjoy to view and discuss our perceptions of significant events. You are right to point out the matter of a line. or limit that needs to recognized.

I guess the one thing that I don't really understand is the degree of conviction in the zealot and the willingness to destroy. to promote his certainty



posted on Feb, 9 2013 @ 02:55 AM
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And yet you visit ATS like the rest of us?

This site is full of those you refer to in your post!



posted on Feb, 9 2013 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


We realize that the overzealous have little to no chance of actually uncovering anything at all of note

You want to know what would really hurt our community?

If the collective consensus of the ATS faculty is that the memberbase has little to no chance of uncovering anything at all of note....

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Thanks for the belief in us. Thanks for abandoning the very essence of what it means to be a conspiracy theorist.

We are a damn conspiracy community! We question and question and question some more.

Anything to the contrary is contrary to what a conspiracy theorist community should be.

What sickens me is this push for censorship on the topic. What my biggest fear is, is the precedent it sets for future topics on ATS!


It's that this kind of rank and irresponsible behavior on the part of a few might well ruin it for the entire community.

To be clear if it's not what you meant....
It's the rank and irresponsible behaviour of those attributing the actions of those particular people onto all conspiracy theorists. It's on them. Not ATS. It was clearly a stab at CTs.


How long before the government decides to throw in a rider to some bill that bans sites like ATS?

That was always a concern.

Intrinsic to the very fact we have a thriving conspiracy community is the acknowledgement corruption is prevalent in government, MSM, and all other branches of the echelon.

Yes of course we run the risk of them doing something so corrupt as to silencing the wicked questioners...

It is BECAUSE of that risk that we should continue pressing on with full...what was the word you used?...overzealousness!

Just sharing my opinion dude. Just like you. Hope you can appreciate it. One CT to another.



posted on Feb, 9 2013 @ 03:53 AM
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I thought the same thing when Alex Jones was on Piers Morgan ranting and raving about Sandy Hook and gun rights. He came across as a babbling fool who wanted nothing more than a platform to spew his words to the nation.

He like many here, did not enhance our community and as a matter of fact, the MSM now speaks of sites like this or conspiracy theorist as "crack pots"





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