THIS Is The Problem With Our Community!!!

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posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Can you point me to the part where anyone has a legal right to harass anyone else? Last I checked that kind of behavior fell under the auspices of stalking.




posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Can you point me to the part where anyone has a legal right to harass anyone else? Last I checked that kind of behavior fell under the auspices of stalking.


Where did I even hint that anyone had such a right? Maybe you could quote me saying anything that remotely resembles that false argument?

Do you deny the media does it much worse then what you are describing? Do you deny they will camp in front of peoples houses for days? And why did you ignore my main point that everytime someone does something stupid many cower in fear of their rights being further eroded? Do you disagree that is the real problem and not what the next fool does?

People do stupid things all the time are we going to just keep volunteering to relinquish rights till they are all gone because fools keep doing stupid things? Here is a novel idea how about we focus on getting the scum in power out of there so we do not have to worry about the next time some idiot does something we will be punished for it?

edit on 7-2-2013 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Unity_99
I don't believe that ordinary aware conspiracy intelligent people, harass, so its probably a certain paid off variety imposing as aware, intelligent people.


I actually think the harrassers are a bunch of mentally unbalanced, lone wolf, nut jobs, looking for their 15 minutes of fame without having to pull a trigger. We see them on here all the time, these people need to seek mental health professionals before they lose it and the papers are writing the next story about them.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


What rights exactly have you lost during your lifetime? I am nearly 50 and cannot think of a single one that I have lost.

If you are speaking around the current spasm of Second Amendment issues... even if the bans pass, you'd still have the right to bear arms. Just not all arms - a right you do not possess currently anyway.

I see a HUGE difference between the press and the current spate of Internet warriors who are at the root of this problem. The press, tactful or tactless as they can be, are accountable for their actions - directly. Not only in reputation but in terms of culpability as well. They can be sued or forced to print a retraction. They don't hide behind Internet handles and IP masking programs, stirring up trouble that they believe they'll never be put in a position to have to answer for.

It is a very different concept entirely. In truth every justification I've seen for this utter nonsense wouldn't even qualify as a strawman - as strawmen arguments, in theory, at least must make some sort of deductive sense.

~Heff



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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I don't believe that anyone should be harassing anyone for any reason, but let's use our conspiratorial minds to examine this further.
From the evidence brought forward from the Occupy movement regarding agent provacateurs, how do we know that actual conspiracy theorists are harassing these people?
How do we know that agents working for those with a political agenda aren't the ones doing the harassing to place the blame on us truth seekers?
It could happen and it just may be.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


Explanation: S&F!

It is not a problem at all Heff! :shk:

Here is why ... generally it is legally refered to as the ATS Terms and Conditions and specifically they protect TAN (TheAboveNetwork) , ATS and its world wide membership base like this ...


4) No Endorsement of User Content. Our Users are solely responsible for all posted Content (as defined in the next sentence) that is uploaded, posted, emailed, transmitted or otherwise made available on or through the Websites (collectively, "Post"). "User Content" means User-Posted content or information of any type or medium, including but not limited to: letters, emails or other messages; other forms of communication through the Websites; personal User information; board posts; reader reviews; blogs, ratings, data, notes and testimonials; images; audio or video files; and podcasts. User acknowledges and agree that TAN does not endorse any User Content and is not responsible or liable for any User Content, even though it may be unlawful, harassing, libelous, privacy invading, abusive, threatening, harmful, hateful, vulgar, obscene, and/or disruptive, or may infringe upon, misappropriate, or otherwise violate the intellectual property or other rights of another. User acknowledges that TAN does not pre-screen User Content, and has no obligation to do so, but that TAN and its designees will have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to refuse, edit, move or remove any User Content that is posted on the Websites. If you find any Posts in these forums to be offensive or threatening, please contact TAN or the moderators with the address of the Post. If we determine that removal of a Post or Posts is necessary, we will make reasonable efforts to do so in a timely manner. TAN will make every effort to provide a free and open discussion environment within the boundaries of the Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions Membership that does not contain offensive or threatening messages, but cannot guarantee that all such messages will be found and removed within any specific timeframe. You must evaluate and bear all risk associated with the use of any postings, including any reliance on the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such postings.


TAN and ATS does not endorse the content of the membership.

And like this ...


7) DISCLAIMER. You expressly understand and agree that:
YOUR USE OF THE WEBSITES IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK.


All ATS members use this website at their own risk.

And like this ...


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All ATS members agree to fully protect TAN legally.

And like this ...


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Because TAN has circumstances that mitigate any liablitity caused by any ATS members posting in a real-time environment.

And like this ...


12c) Choice of Law. These Terms and Conditions of Use (and for members, the Additional Terms and Conditions of Membership) shall be deemed to have been entered into in the State of Arizona. The rights of you and TAN hereunder shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of the State of Arizona without regard to conflicts of laws principles.


All ATS members are under the same laws.

Continued next post below ...
edit on 7-2-2013 by OmegaLogos because: Edited to fix spelling.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 

Continued from above post ...

And like this ...


15). Posting: You will not Post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate. You will not solicit personal information from any member. You will not use information gathered from this website to harass, abuse or harm other people.


Because TAN has warned all of us ATS members against promoting anything as a conspiracy without any solid evidence to back up any claims.

And like this ...


16) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.


Since it has legal ramifications.


21) Personal Responsibilities/Indemnity: At all times, you agree to remain solely responsible for anything found within your posts, images, and videos and agree to indemnify and hold the TAN parties harmless from any claim or demand, including attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of any material you submit, Post to or transmit through the Websites, your use of the Websites, your connection to the Websites, your violation of these Terms and Conditions of Membership (or the Terms and Conditions of Use), or your violation of the rights of another.


And we are all each SOLEY legally responsible for our own actions.

And like this ...


21b) Cooperation: You will, if asked by TAN, cease to Post any content, and/or links to content, deemed offensive, objectionable, or in poor taste by TAN, in its sole discretion.


TAN has asked us to respect any of their requests in good faith.

And like this ...


22) Disclaimer: TAN does not and cannot review all of the content of every message Posted and does not accept responsibility for the contents of any messages. We reserve the right to delete any message and/or restrict Posting rights on the message board for any reason whatsoever. Should you continue to Post messages that violate these Terms and Conditions of Membership, your account may be terminated, your ability to access to the Websites may be restricted or blocked, and your service provider(s) may be contacted about your behavior. Furthermore, TAN expressly reserves the rights under the law to take any other actions deemed necessary.


Also TAN has itself, ATS and its membership covered through this Legal Disclaimer.

And like this ...


22a) Disclosure: TAN also reserves the right to disclose any known personal information when required by law or in the good-faith belief that such action is necessary to conform to the law or comply with a legal process served on TAN, protect and defend the rights or property of the TAN domains, or visitors to these domains, identify persons who may be violating the law, the legal notice, or the rights of third parties, and cooperate with the investigations of purported unlawful activities.


And if anything criminal does occur then TAN informs us they will comply with the law at each of our own expense.

And like this ...


22b) Editorial Neutrality: TAN provides a forum for the open discussion of a wide variety of subjects, but does not influence editorial control over any particular theory, opinion, ideology, political doctrine, viewpoint or position on any topic in so far as those topics adhere to the rules set forth in these Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership. Furthermore, though operating costs are supported by advertising and promotional revenue, TAN do not officially endorse or promote any commercial product or service.


TAN maintains editorial neutrality in so far as it complies with USA and AZ law and also the ATS T&C's.

And like this ...


23) Violation: Violation of any aspect of these Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership are subject to our Actions for general abuse and violations, or in extreme cases, immediate banning of your username/IP from the domains and/or the removal of your email/password from the database. You agree that, all disputes, of any type, regarding any transgression or disagreement with the policies of TAN, or the decisions of one of TAN or administrative staff are final.


TAN are the owners of ATS and what they say goes and we as members agree to that at all times or we are free to leave and never return.

Continued next post below ...



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 

Continued from above post ...

And Finally like this ...


24) Right of Community Management. This is a privately owned discussion board community. TAN reserves the right to take action against any member, or member Posting, which is deemed to be devoted purely to disruption, represents behavior contrary to community building, or in cases where the content is contrary to the core ideals of the Websites. This action may include removal of your Posting and/or complete banning of your username and IP address. TAN reserves the right to eliminate or edit any content deemed inappropriate for the discussion boards, news network or any affiliated sites. TAN reserves the right to establish limits on topics that may be discussed if, in their opinion, the discussion of those topics attract an audience that is counterproductive to maintaining the ideals set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership.


We have been given permission by TAN to self police the website and we can all make both thread and reply alerts and we can bring issues to the BB&Q forum and we also can make general complaints and suggestions via the complaints button found on the tools mainpage.

Anybody can join up and help police the website as they see fit to do or not do.

Methinks you are worring about the negetive PR issues which HAVE ALWAYS surrounded those who wear a tinfoil hat proudly.

Personal Disclosure: We went through this same kind of
when Erad3 aka Jarad Loughner went off the deep-end and ATS doesn't seem to have suffered the worse for the wear for that and membership continues to grow DAILY.

Here is what I was able to specifically extract from within the 1st relinked article that is of GREAT IMPORTANCE and should be noticed by everybody...


In a document made public late Wednesday, District Attorney George Brauchler said some victims are concerned for their safety because of the unwanted attention.

Brauchler asked District Judge William Sylvester to ensure the victims’ and witnesses’ names are redacted from any documents released in the future, although many were identified in previously released court filings and some have granted media interviews, called news conferences or appeared at public events.

Brauchler said it is important to accommodate the victims’ and witnesses’ wishes because the prosecution’s case requires the cooperation of some of them.


The DA is just trying to protect his case in prosecuting James Holmes and he is probably more interested in getting a win rather than finding out what really happened.

Note that the attention is unwanted ... but is not nessisarily UNWARRANTED!


The secrecy surrounding details of the case have prompted numerous objections and requests for information from media outlets.

The city of Aurora has also asked Sylvester to reconsider his secrecy orders, saying they became moot when prosecutors outlined their case against Holmes during a preliminary hearing in January.


We have a job to do ... we are here to filter the facts out from the fictions ok!

I request that my fellow members lower their threashold of fear and act respectfully and then none of us have anything to be worried about ok.

I hope this post helps to lessen the level of fear and put us all on the same page which is that ATS does NOT house all conspiracy theorists nor does it house only criminals and that we are each responsible legally for our own actions!

Be well comrades!



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:20 PM
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Sites like this one attract a certain type of person. Unfortunately, this site does not appear to encourage intelligent discourse. Thread after thread regarding poorly thought out conspiracies have free rein and attract a lot of attention and interest from like minded individuals. And that is a good thing, what the site should be about.

However, the more vocal often are bigots, small minded zealots with little regard for another's opinion and are blocked out by an overwhelming fanaticism that follows.

Because this happens so often it seems, I am sure that more neutral voices wonder if this is the sort of site for them and leave, or perhaps moderate their talking points and/or even conform to the overwhelming view.

This now has become the home it seems for fanaticism. Any crazy ill-thought out idea gets a good run here, S&Fed to the hilt. Because well reasoned and evidenced theories are trumped almost every time by a blurry photo, testimony by 'experts' that have no standing and get the basics wrong, or regurgitated debunked theories that get a run of steam and go many pages before its gently pointed out that its been debunked numerous times.

Its idealistic to expect such a site to contain primarily scholarly types interested in only hard evidence when such is sometimes not always available. But it certainly should be the starting point, or at least an ideal. Sadly, at present, thats a pipe dream.

An opposing view to the OP would attract a far greater level of S&F and thats all the evidence needed to back up the above. Is it really any surprise that the likes of Alex Jones and his ilk, these offensive individuals who are selfish enough to put their own curiosity above the grieving of families are respected by many on this site. Who knows, some of them may read this site for inspiration or even follow through with their ridiculous threats in order to work out the truth.

The hard facts are, what many don't want to accept, is that bad things happen and sometimes, actually, the vast majority of the time, it happens normally, there is no conspiracy. Gun nuts also exist and yes, they are making things worse for responsible gun owners without the need for any government provocateurs.

And yes again, these people really are too irresponsible to legally own such weapons.

If there is a conspiracy at the moment, its a conspiracy to expose people for who they really are. And showing zero amount of respect to grieving families does that perfectly.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:41 PM
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It is little wonder that society has bred conspiracy theorists. We stood idly by while the political parties tell one lie after another for political gain and to push their collective agendas. The media has taken sides and can not be entrusted with informing the citizenry of the facts. This has been going on for over half a century,if not longer. The information age has put the business of information and disinformation into overdrive. The world no longer trusts the information they get from any source. It was a foregone conclusion that it would eventually breed extremists. The world is literally bipolar.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
reply to post by Hefficide
 


I thought the same thing when Alex Jones was on Piers Morgan ranting and raving about Sandy Hook and gun rights. He came across as a babbling fool who wanted nothing more than a platform to spew his words to the nation.

He like many here, did not enhance our community and as a matter of fact, the MSM now speaks of sites like this or conspiracy theorist as "crack pots"


I agree with the above but just who is the "crack pots" and whom stirs up the pot?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Regards, Iwinder



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:03 PM
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I am a person with an enquiring, open mind. I don't believe in stereotyping a nebulous group as "conspiracy theorists." I have no co-members. I am not part of a group. A lot of ATSers are here for scientific topics and current events. Anyone who stereotypes who comes here is promulgating a viewpoint congruent with racism.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:14 PM
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I don't see this as a threat to our beloved conspiracy site nor others either.

I believe that this site and the others will actually flourish with or without bad members and behaviour.

Why? because I came here years ago after being tired of fed the "real deal" through an IV (TV) and the drip rate was set to high for the news and facts which I began to question.

Sure there are bad apples here and everywhere but I will say this......at least here you can dissect the information and discuss it in a very polite manner.

I have learned so much here it makes me wonder what would I be thinking If I never found this place?

Personally my last worry is what the MSM thinks of me or my friends here at ATS.

As my post above with the link says..... "Dirty Laundry" Indeed.


Great thread S&F
Regards, Iwinder



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


It's a good post and you bring up valid points. Although I personally would never seek to harass somebody in there personal life, I am more than happy to dissect, scrutinize and if needed expose inconsistencies they have made on record via public independent media.

We live in a country where all of our main stream news is manufactured and where journalistic integrity and accountability is dead. What you are in fact witnessing is a public that is sick to death of lies and dis information and feels they have no way to get the truth.

While I do not condone the behavior, I can certainly understand the frustration. If people want to address the real underlying issue of why this continues to happen, they will need to start addressing the problems we have with our current media format that occupies prime time, their ability to promote lies and dis information without recourse and start to scrutinize owners, affiliates and motives behind reporting what they do and not reporting what they should.

That is however, a monumental task and not one I think will be taken on so the sad fact is, this kind of thing will probably continue, as fake news, news aimed solely at agenda pushing and propaganda and for every issue that should be covered and covered in depth is ignored.

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
edit on 7-2-2013 by Helious because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Unity_99
I don't believe that ordinary aware conspiracy intelligent people, harass, so its probably a certain paid off variety imposing as aware, intelligent people.


Bingo, I could not agree more with the above.

Regards, Iwinder



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by hawkiye
 


What rights exactly have you lost during your lifetime? I am nearly 50 and cannot think of a single one that I have lost.

If you are speaking around the current spasm of Second Amendment issues... even if the bans pass, you'd still have the right to bear arms. Just not all arms - a right you do not possess currently anyway.

I see a HUGE difference between the press and the current spate of Internet warriors who are at the root of this problem. The press, tactful or tactless as they can be, are accountable for their actions - directly. Not only in reputation but in terms of culpability as well. They can be sued or forced to print a retraction. They don't hide behind Internet handles and IP masking programs, stirring up trouble that they believe they'll never be put in a position to have to answer for.

It is a very different concept entirely. In truth every justification I've seen for this utter nonsense wouldn't even qualify as a strawman - as strawmen arguments, in theory, at least must make some sort of deductive sense.

~Heff



Huh? Have you tried to board a plane lately? Lets start with the TSA. You have lost the 4th.




The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



Have you heard about drone strikes recently? Yeah, they are saying it is legal to kill US citizens if they are affiliated with an organization who is affiliated with an organization. There claimed authority to do this does NOT include amending the 5th which is being violated by this legislation.



No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation


How about recent gun legislation already implemented in New York and trying to be pushed through federally? Your actively losing the 2nd.



A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Thats only 3 of the most important, in our lifetime. The patriot act violates many other articles that could be easily claimed to violate our rights, as could police road blocks and stop and frisk laws.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by sulaw
 


Im not sure what you were really getting at there, but somewhere in there it seems like you are another who accepts that it is ok to harass someone because they went on tv.

Not much I can say to that, other than I hope you, someday, have an experience that helps you understand the point.


You are correct, 35 years ago myself and a friend found a dead women on the frozen shore of Lake Huron,
If that was not horrifying enough for two teenagers we were chased by the local reporters from our city newspaper.

All I wanted after that was to hide in my bedroom and not be seen.

True story even if it is just my say so here.

Regards, Iwinder



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by hawkiye
 


What rights exactly have you lost during your lifetime? I am nearly 50 and cannot think of a single one that I have lost.


Are you seriously asking this question? The right to be secure in person and property, The right to habeas corpus, the right to freely travel, the right to not be imprisoned without due process, the right to counsel trial by jury the right to counsel, that right to confront ones accusers. the right to keep and bear the arms of my choice and a few more I can't think if at the moment. The government has unlawfully granted itself authority to deny me those rights in a series of bills. And banning some guns does not preserve my right to keep an bear arms when it leave me defenseless against tyranny. Shall not be infringed has already been violated. Sayin you still have the right is like saying if you put a little cat urine in your drink you still have a pretty good drink


I see a HUGE difference between the press and the current spate of Internet warriors who are at the root of this problem. The press, tactful or tactless as they can be, are accountable for their actions - directly. Not only in reputation but in terms of culpability as well. They can be sued or forced to print a retraction. They don't hide behind Internet handles and IP masking programs, stirring up trouble that they believe they'll never be put in a position to have to answer for.

It is a very different concept entirely. In truth every justification I've seen for this utter nonsense wouldn't even qualify as a strawman - as strawmen arguments, in theory, at least must make some sort of deductive sense.

~Heff



How is the media camping out in front of peoples houses for days so they cannot even come out to get the mail or newspaper without being harassed and hounded any different? Also I am not justifying someone doing something stupid that is another false argument. And still you ignore my main point that it is politicians using that actions of a few idiots to justify taking away rights. that is the real problem.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 07:56 PM
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I have serious doubts that anyone has tracked down people involved with the Aurora shooting or the Sandy Hook shooting and then harrassed them.

Firstly, in order to do the research required to make a person feel both were conspiracy in nature, or even connected, would require critical thinking and the developement of understanding the motive for conspiracy and also just how the conspiracy happened. Sure, maybe some idiot saw a youtube video and believed it instantly, BUT that person wouldn't be able to continue to the second part:

Secondly, from the point of understanding the conspiracy and believing it, the person must have the resources to track down names, addresses and phone numbers of people involved. This actually would require the same amount of critical thinking to do that it would require to have the common sense not to call those people just to harrass them.

It would take the same mental capacity to track these people down as it would take to realize that doing so just to harrass them would make the entire conspiracy more easily hidden as you made the entire conspiracy theorist culture look like harrassers.

If anything I say here is true then basically we have a conspiracy here. There could have been NO harrassment to anyone. Just CLAIMS for the masses to believe, a BRAND NEW STIGMA and stereotype for conspiracy theorists, and a negative one at that.



posted on Feb, 7 2013 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 



Originally posted by hawkiye

Are you seriously asking this question? The right to be secure in person and property, The right to habeas corpus, the right to freely travel, the right to not be imprisoned without due process, the right to counsel trial by jury the right to counsel, that right to confront ones accusers. the right to keep and bear the arms of my choice and a few more I can't think if at the moment. The government has unlawfully granted itself authority to deny me those rights in a series of bills. And banning some guns does not preserve my right to keep an bear arms when it leave me defenseless against tyranny. Shall not be infringed has already been violated. Sayin you still have the right is like saying if you put a little cat urine in your drink you still have a pretty good drink


While I have absolute disdain for the Patriot Acts I & II, the Military Commission Acts, and the NDAA - it is hyperbole to state that you have lost any rights because of them. You haven't lost a thing unless you've been declared an enemy combatant. To the best of my knowledge no American citizen has suffered the plight of extraordinary rendition thus far. So the better phrasing would be that there is a potential for abuse currently - not actual abuse.

Regarding losing your right to freely travel? Exactly where have you personally been refused the right to travel to? Though I've been a homebody lately, for most of my life I traversed the entirety of North America, totally unimpeded. Has that changed? Are there now checkpoints at state lines or something I am unaware of?

Is a passport now required to go places where one was traditionally not required?

Your cat urine analogy strikes me as argument from emotion. Since the early part of last century there have been prohibitions upon civilians owning weapons of war. Certainly I'd offer that there probably aren't many left alive who can remember the joy of buying their first Tommy gun from the Sears mail order catalog. In fact I would be willing to wager that many ATS members were actually born into, or came of age in a world where the Brady Bill was the law of the land. Thus, from their POV - gun laws are less prevalent today than when they first learned of them.


Originally posted by hawkiye

How is the media camping out in front of peoples houses for days so they cannot even come out to get the mail or newspaper without being harassed and hounded any different? Also I am not justifying someone doing something stupid that is another false argument. And still you ignore my main point that it is politicians using that actions of a few idiots to justify taking away rights. that is the real problem.


I've already explained why the professional media is different from bloggers.

As for the insistence that I am avoiding the issue? I counter with the statement "Why are you trying to derail this thread when there are other threads dealing with that issue?"

Since I'm a jovial sort, however, I will reply in any case. List nearly any law and "a few idiots" can pretty much be cited for the law having to exist in the first place. Rape, drunk driving, murder, theft, etc. I personally do not agree with the political opportunism that seems to be apparent today - particularly in the case of Diane Fienstein. After all, it's not like she hasn't been kicking this horse for about 4 decades now. But, having said that... she wouldn't have a podium to speak upon nor a group to listen if there wasn't some truth to the fact that we've seen far too many spree killings in the past decade.

~Heff





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