You are all evil Capitalists!!

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
(A series of random excuses as to why someone can't better themselves.)

No system is perfect, but when it comes to fairness and providing the most benefit to the most people, free market capitalism is much better than the alternatives.

Random excuses?

So being born into poverty is no excuse as to why you cant do better?

Oh my lord, the mentality of some people is truly laughable

You sir, have brought a tear to my eye! Been a while since ive heard something so stupid

I was born into poverty. The first pair of new shoes I ever owned I purchased with my own money I earned working on a neighboring farm. Up until 13, every other pair of shoes Ihad were hand-me-downs. I worked hard, sometimes making less than minimum wage, put in the effort, got every bit of education I could, all with the idea that I would better my self. Yeah, I could have sat on my ass and blamed everyone around me for my plight, but that's not the way to get ahead.

If only people in developing nations had the same opportunities as you eh? They might start singing the same tune.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

You just dont get it do you? The system has been set up so that only a handful profit and everyone else goes to hell trying to make ends meet.

No, it is YOU that doesn’t get it. What you describe is most definitely happening but that’s NOT CAPITALISM its crony capitalism. This is the issue American’s on both sides of the political spectrum are fighting against in US. We don’t like crony capitalism any more than you do, but call it what it is! We want to get back to free market capitalism and we want our government to do its damn job and prevent runaway crony capitalism and corruption.

I want the opportunity to earn millions of dollars in the free market. That certainly won't happen when the game is rigged by corporate thugs and selfish, corrupt politicians.

People who jump on the EVIL CAPITALISM bandwagon are only hurting the country’s chances of recovery more. Anyone calling for the government to step in and save us is asking the very crooks who F-d it up in the first place to fix it! Anyone calling this madness CAPITALISM and seeking a new economic system is attempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Capitalism works! But it only works when government regulates it rather than participating in it.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

You just dont get it do you? The system has been set up so that only a handful profit and everyone else goes to hell trying to make ends meet.

No, it is YOU that doesn’t get it. What you describe is most definitely happening but that’s NOT CAPITALISM its crony capitalism.

Sounds like the "Left and Right" paradigm to me, Call it what you want, its still capitalism.

This is the issue American’s on both sides of the political spectrum are fighting against in US. We don’t like crony capitalism any more than you do, but call it what it is!

I am, its a form of capitalism. It is capitalism. What do you think i'm calling it?

We want to get back to free market capitalism and we want our government to do its damn job and prevent runaway crony capitalism and corruption.

Well its not going to happen. You'll make sure of that by continuing to support the idea of capitalism for your own gain.

I want the opportunity to earn millions of dollars in the free market.

I want unskilled people to be given a decent wage.

That certainly won't happen when the game is rigged by corporate thugs and selfish, corrupt politicians.

How did that come about? ah yes, capitalism! Then they bought governments and turned it into "super capitalism" which is just a step to far right?

Originally posted by seabag
No, it is YOU that doesn’t get it. What you describe is most definitely happening but that’s NOT CAPITALISM its crony capitalism.

How can anyone say that crony capitalism isn't capitalism when the word is in the name?

We don’t like crony capitalism any more than you do, but call it what it is! We want to get back to free market capitalism and we want our government to do its damn job and prevent runaway crony capitalism and corruption.

I think you have a wrong idea of what free market capitalism means because it sure doesn't include the government meddling in the market on behalf of the people.

I want the opportunity to earn millions of dollars in the free market. That certainly won't happen when the game is rigged by corporate thugs and selfish, corrupt politicians.

Now you understand why those who made it big early on took it upon themselves to set things up in their favor.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

How did that come about? ah yes, capitalism! Then they bought governments and turned it into "super capitalism" which is just a step to far right?

Capitalism works! But it only works when government regulates it rather than participating in it. I’ve clearly spelled out the difference between the two but you don't want to see it. You're either being intellectually dishonest or you have an agenda.

Stop drinking the “EVIL CAPITALISM” Kool Aid and look at the facts.

That goes for you too, daskakik!

reply to post by seabag

Of course there is a difference but they are more alike than different. One of the pillars of capitalism is "caveat emptor" not the "nanny state" keeping the greedy in line. I'm surprised you would call for something like that.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

Your ignorance is showing.

and your inner tard is foaming at the mouth

Give me one proper reason why working poverty should be allowed to thrive in modern times? Why is it, if everyone is putting in, why are only a handful benefiting?

Because they are also frivolous consumers. Why is it that as a bus boy, paying rent, and all my expenses I was able to save as much of my money and buy my first car? I didnt own a cell phone. I didnt go out. I didnt buy a single article of clothing. Nothing. I saved. When I bought my car I drove to a better job and saved again. I opened my first business before I am 30. My dad helped me out some, BUT his life was far worse than mine. He lived in a crap apartment in the bronx with my mother and older sister working almost 20 hours a day for almost 10 years....YEAH. WE saved and now my kids will probably have a better life. I can help them out and they will help themselves.

We work holidays in my family. We work weekends. We dont spend on crap. We dont really take vacations. We save. When we do spend we spend on means of producing more. So now when I see my friends talking about how their job sucks I think to myself, "how is that nice car outside". I dont even own a car. I take a bus.

Eventually my family will be wealthy. Not because we will exploit people. We will have earned it. I am not rich by the way. My family has some money, but we are still middle class. BUT, We know how to get there. it is not a hard concept. It IS hard work.

So the 100 richest people on the planet follow the very same routine as you've stated then? Get real

So 100 people represent the planet?....again....MOST are workaholics. I would also ask if any of those 100 didnt at one point work like dogs themselves of had prior generations that did and so were able to set them up. Like I said SOME may have it easy and take short cuts. That is not the norm though. Money doesnt fall from trees.

If big business did not monopolise industry, buy governments, block the formation of unions and ultimately # developing countries in the ass, People would be getting a bigger slice of the pie.

So big business is the evil of capitalism? I agree. They make the government huge and spend more than it should which leads to the citizenry being over taxed. Massive social spending. It is a bad thing....I agree.

How about a letter to the owner of Nike and its shareholders asking them to pay proper wages to their factory workers? You'd think i were asking for a bone marrow donation.

How about you give MONEY to the third world. Literally find a non-for-profit where more than 90% of what you donate makes it to the people intended. Give everything you have in excess and live a humble meager life for your ideals. You dont get to decide what others do with what they earn. YOU CAN do so with what YOU earn.

You just dont get it do you? The system has been set up so that only a handful profit and everyone else goes to hell trying to make ends meet. You peddle the opinion that someone has to lose so someone else can gain. Dont you understand we're talking about about people's lives here?

No, my immigrant father who came to the US with a few thousand dollars is a testament to that not being true. My family and I have lived and worked in a low income Hispanic area (where my family first moved to) that had MANY success stories of hard working people making for themselves a wonderful life from REALLY humble beginnings. It is a work in progress but they went form inner city ghettos to the suburbs in less than a generation. My family included.

So no. The ones who didnt take the trip with us over the bridge into the burbs had nice cars, phones, clothing, and other CRAP. They also tried to scam the system as much as possible and settled for easy living. Well, I own my own business now. My life is easier. Dont look at me or my father and think we had some magic crystal ball or evil masterminds handing us cash. WE WORK and DAMN HARD. We will make our kids do the same.

Maybe one day my great grand kids will own a fortune 500 company. (I hope not) but their legacy will be one of sacrifice. If they decide to be a scum bags, they cant stain us. WE made it possible through sacrifice. Maybe we will go broke and start again. Who knows. I am not scared of that though. I AM WILLING to work. What can not be taken from me are my two hands and my will.

There may be people who by no fault of their own are handed a crappy situation. BUT life is not perfect and while you´re living you can still do something about it. Also we do need to reform all the world for its massive hemorrhaging of public money into private hands. That should not stop you form earning a buck though.

Those that appose capitalism don't have any money, can';t save any money, and if they had any would waste if quickly because they don't know what to do with it to make it grow.

These people are the nations poor in mind, money and sense. Those who oppose capitalism don't have much, don't want much, don't need much (because they don't own much) don't contribute much, don't understand much and they certainly don't have the guts to leave the country they complain about and go and live with the Himba in Africa where they might learn that Capitalism keeps them alive too.

You can live in America with being a Capitalist. No one forces you to be part of the system. I could live in my country without any help from anyone, but that life is too hard and I like it the way it is for me at least. But if I wanted to, I don't need anyone to survive..... but the ones against capitalism....well they just continue to be a bunch of whingers

reply to post by daskakik

Of course there is a difference but they are more alike than different. One of the pillars of capitalism is "caveat emptor" not the "nanny state" keeping the greedy in line. I'm surprised you would call for something like that.

The only difference between American crony capitalism and Communism is that people still own tangible assets and the means of production. The crony capitalists in government and big business are inching closer to a total monopoly….which would mirror communism.

I’m for government protecting us from fraud and corruption rather than partaking in it.

Government by the people, for the people….

I’m for a well-regulated (not over regulated) free market where every American has a fair chance at success.

I’m not sure why that is surprising to you.

People who rally against free market capitalism are opening the door to much MUCH worse. Be careful what you wish for.

Originally posted by seabag
The only difference between American crony capitalism and Communism is that people still own tangible assets and the means of production. The crony capitalists in government and big business are inching closer to a total monopoly….which would mirror communism.

Nobody said anything about communism.

I’m for a well-regulated (not over regulated) free market where every American has a fair chance at success.

So "crony capitalism" =/= "capitalism" but "well regulated" = "free". Illogical.

People who rally against free market capitalism are opening the door to much MUCH worse. Be careful what you wish for.

I'm not rallying for or against anything. Just pointing out errors.

reply to post by pacifier2012


I agree with you 100%. However there are a lot of wealthy people out there that are talking out both sides of their mouths. They are front and center of the debate. They are on TV screaming about how unfair it is while making more money every minute than we will make in a lifetime. They got theirs and they want more. They want you to believe what they say. They love capitalism but want you to think they don't.

Every single person that reads this has benefited from capitalism. When/if it is destroyed, it will only hurt the citizens of the world. It will not go away. It will just be in the background where you can't see it. The elite will be gobbling it up and tossing you crumbs to keep you pacified.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
If only people in developing nations had the same opportunities as you eh? They might start singing the same tune.

That is why all of those people flooded into America from all of those other nations for generations--because of the opportunities that a free market capitalist society provides.

And yes, even they have an opportunity to improve their lot. Quality of life in many developing nations continue to improve. Only the kleptocracies like Zimbabwe are stuck in such quagmires and what those people need is not less capitalism, but more freedom. I was in Africa a few years back doing charity medical work, and I had an interesting discussion with some of the locals. Cost of sending a child to the local school was the cost of a few packs of smokes. They said they could not afford to send the children to school as they were chain smoking. Even there, the results of poor choices are obvious.

I doubt that you have spent much time in developing nations, but many people, the ones who succeed compared to their peers, already do sing the same tune. A guy buys some cobbling tools and makes shoes and takes the money to get more materiel to make more shoes and hires another guy to help out. That is capitalism in a small villiage and he enjoys more than his peers that don't have the drive.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz

and your inner tard is foaming at the mouth

You must have that effect on people.

Because they are also frivolous consumers. Why is it that as a bus boy, paying rent, and all my expenses I was able to save as much of my money and buy my first car? I didnt own a cell phone. I didnt go out. I didnt buy a single article of clothing. Nothing. I saved. When I bought my car I drove to a better job and saved again. I opened my first business before I am 30. My dad helped me out some, BUT his life was far worse than mine. He lived in a crap apartment in the bronx with my mother and older sister working almost 20 hours a day for almost 10 years....YEAH. WE saved and now my kids will probably have a better life. I can help them out and they will help themselves.

And you think its right that people should have to work THAT hard to have a decent life?

We work holidays in my family. We work weekends. We dont spend on crap. We dont really take vacations. We save. When we do spend we spend on means of producing more. So now when I see my friends talking about how their job sucks I think to myself, "how is that nice car outside". I dont even own a car. I take a bus.

Good for you.

Eventually my family will be wealthy. Not because we will exploit people. We will have earned it. I am not rich by the way. My family has some money, but we are still middle class. BUT, We know how to get there. it is not a hard concept. It IS hard work.

What business you in?

So 100 people represent the planet?....again....MOST are workaholics. I would also ask if any of those 100 didnt at one point work like dogs themselves of had prior generations that did and so were able to set them up. Like I said SOME may have it easy and take short cuts. That is not the norm though. Money doesnt fall from trees.

Money doesnt fall at all these days, no matter how hard you work.

So big business is the evil of capitalism? I agree. They make the government huge and spend more than it should which leads to the citizenry being over taxed. Massive social spending. It is a bad thing....I agree.

Fair enough.

How about you give MONEY to the third world.

I cant earn enough money to give!?

Literally find a non-for-profit where more than 90% of what you donate makes it to the people intended. Give everything you have in excess and live a humble meager life for your ideals. You dont get to decide what others do with what they earn. YOU CAN do so with what YOU earn.

Why is it down to the average consumer to regulate big businesses greed? Seriously, why shouldnt nike pay their workers a decent wage? Why cant they unionise and be given rights as workers?

No, my immigrant father who came to the US with a few thousand dollars is a testament to that not being true. My family and I have lived and worked in a low income Hispanic area (where my family first moved to) that had MANY success stories of hard working people making for themselves a wonderful life from REALLY humble beginnings. It is a work in progress but they went form inner city ghettos to the suburbs in less than a generation. My family included.

Babyboom generation when people had a chance?

So no. The ones who didnt take the trip with us over the bridge into the burbs had nice cars, phones, clothing, and other CRAP. They also tried to scam the system as much as possible and settled for easy living. Well, I own my own business now. My life is easier. Dont look at me or my father and think we had some magic crystal ball or evil masterminds handing us cash. WE WORK and DAMN HARD. We will make our kids do the same.

I never said you didnt work hard. But what about those factory workers? Dont they work hard? Should they not have the same opportunity as you? Should a handful of people be able to make millions off of their slave labour? I think not.

Maybe one day my great grand kids will own a fortune 500 company. (I hope not) but their legacy will be one of sacrifice. If they decide to be a scum bags, they cant stain us. WE made it possible through sacrifice. Maybe we will go broke and start again. Who knows. I am not scared of that though. I AM WILLING to work. What can not be taken from me are my two hands and my will.

Right, you're the american dream, i get it. Wake up.

There may be people who by no fault of their own are handed a crappy situation. BUT life is not perfect and while you´re living you can still do something about it. Also we do need to reform all the world for its massive hemorrhaging of public money into private hands. That should not stop you form earning a buck though.

Why work only to survive? Makes no sense.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


If you are serious about the shoes, then you can order Blackspot shoes.
www.cleanclothes.org...

Originally posted by smilesmcgee
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

If you are serious about the shoes, then you can order Blackspot shoes.
www.cleanclothes.org...

THANK YOU!! because i am serious about the shoes!

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

And you think its right that people should have to work THAT hard to have a decent life?

How hard? What you consider "descent" is living like a sultan in the third world. You work as hard as you want. It is the means of your comfort. It is all you. You CAN work less, but you will have less.......

Why is it down to the average consumer to regulate big businesses greed? Seriously, why shouldnt nike pay their workers a decent wage? Why cant they unionise and be given rights as workers?

This is a basic law of economics and capitalism. If they suck you dont give them your business. "given rights"....unions cost money....money the worker has to pay....and have always been a source of corruption. BTW in socialism they dont exist. Workers would own their production...just saying.

Also if you and others thought that Nike was making a profit by practices you dont agree with and that affected your choice to support them, you and those like you wouldnt buy Nike shoes. Nike in turn would either change their production practices or lose your revenue. THAT is this law....consumer power of choice. Apparently people in the west like 30 dollar sneakers instead of 100 dollar sneakers....so they choose the Nike sneakers for the quality and price.

Your moral issue with it seems to not bother others. So you are a minority that thinks the majority should think as you do. When Nike goes out of business for its manufacturing policies you will be in the majority. Until then buy another sneaker and leave the MAJORITY to the choice they made. The OP comes to mind. Capitalism, those who advocate against it actually participate in it.

also, You go into business to make money.....if not you open a not-for-profit

"greed"....makes you go into business because you like more than just surviving. Your greed drives you to stay in the western world instead of moving to the third world and living like them. It also keeps you from selling your computer so a single third world family can eat a descent meal....do it, sell it and donate the money to a third world family....feed the children. Have a heart. Your computer could feed them for 2 weeks. Have a heart. DO IT...sell it..it is an excess.

I never said you didnt work hard. But what about those factory workers? Dont they work hard? Should they not have the same opportunity as you? Should a handful of people be able to make millions off of their slave labour? I think not.

they can move here...or make their politicians demand that companies setting up shop in their countries pay more. I cant do that.. I cant even vote in their countries. If they werent so corrupt their politicians would defend them. That is their fault, like our corruption is OUR fault. I wont blame them for a corrupt leadership in MY country. I also wont accept blame for a corrupt leadership in their country.

Why work only to survive? Makes no sense.

Work to get greater security and so your kids wont have to work as hard as you. Then they can do the same.
Eventually you can give yourself a little more comfort. If you dont work for it, you will not have it. If that is cool, then fine. I want more for my kids. Soooooo I am going to work my ass off and give it to them. I will also drill them until I am confident they will do them same.

What business you in?

Waiter/ cafe owner, extraordinaire...lol


You should read "Rich dad Poor dad." I think its called. ( I dont embrace that philosophy, but agree that it is true. I value honor and integrity, the spiritually wealthy poor mans ethos.)

you seem young also. Young people cant justifiably have everything someone working their entire lives has. I dont expect to have at 30 what others have at 50.....

i just want to address the idea that it is because of capitalism that we have the standard of living and level of technology we have today
some refuse to accept that china is a capitalist country (because that would indicate that capitalism is not some magic wand that can be waved to solve all problems but rather that it is the cause of many of those problems) and claim that they are still largely communist while at the same time claiming that it is because of capitalism that we have the products being produced by this "communist" country and make large profits off of "communist" labor
so which is it? you cant have it both ways.... either capitalism is causing problems..... or china is not capitalist and our standard of living is not dependent on capitalism

many will claim that without the incentives of ungodly profit margins no work would be done and innovation would die out
and i call bollocks on that.... in creating new technologies the productivity of the entire world increases and everyones standard of living goes up
its is still largely beneficial to the individual to put forth the effort to create these technologies because ultimately the individuals standard of living goes up regardless of whether or not there was a direct profit involved
people do not come up with innovative ideas because there is money involved (this may be the case in some instances like novelty items and ideas on how to concentrate wealth but for the most part is not true)

in the same way that bilateral trade is mutually beneficial regardless of whether or not one party is receiving more value than they have given
lets say you have $100 worth of oil and i have$100 worth of steel you need steel and i need oil so we trade at a ratio of 1/1 and both of us benefited from that but neither made profit
now if you needed the steel more than the oil i can force you to trade at a ratio of 2/1 and receive huge amounts of profit
even though i would have been perfectly happy with a ratio of 1/1 ive used the circumstances of the situation (in this case thats nothing more than the regions we were born in) as leverage to fleece you

so no profit is not a driving factor and trade and innovation would not come to a screeching halt simply because some turd monger is not receiving more wealth than they have been putting in any longer (for the very simple and easy to understand reason that: you are going to need/want goods and services that you can not produce yourself)

reply to post by sirhumperdink


How naive. Please name some innovations that were not for profit. Benjamin Franklin gave all his inventions away. However, he was already wealthy when he did that. He even stated that he had enough wealth. China embraced capitalism. It is as one poster explained, crony capitalism. I think incentive would be a good word to use when trying to understand how things are invented. It is no coincidence that the Chinese make cheap copies of pretty much everything they produce. Hundreds of years of communism left them without the imagination that drives the incentive to invent. China is not a good example of capitalism. Russia is pretty similar. They have made progress, rather slow progress. It is no coincidence that America has lead the way to the technology we have today.

reply to post by jimmiec


electricity
fire
the wheel
knives spears axes etc.
boats
the internet
clothing
musical instruments
systems of language and writing
mathematics
radio
almost our entire understanding of physics
agriculture
domestication of animals
firearms (gotta toss one in there i know youll enjoy)

these are all some of the most important innovations in man kinds history

..... you really want me to continue? because i can do this all day

Originally posted by sirhumperdink
reply to post by jimmiec

 

electricity
fire
the wheel
knives spears axes etc.
boats
the internet
clothing
musical instruments
systems of language and writing
mathematics
radio
almost out entire understanding of physics
eating utensils
domestication of animals

..... you really want me to continue? because i can do this all day

Most of those were for personal survival. Electricity was invented for monetary gain. Radio ( Tesla) was invented for monetary gain. Physics was from sheer boredom and a way to sit on your ass and get paid. Nothing you list strengthens your argument. Domesticating animals was also for survival. Eating utensils was from some bored people whittling. Bowls? Same thing, survival.