A solar 'superstorm' is coming and we'll only get 30-minute warning

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by IronVelvet

 

It depends on your idea of LARGE. A Carrington like incident will most likely melt the microchips in your electronics. Any conductive material will cause the pulse to travel creating an electrical shock to anything and everything that touches it.

What pulse are you talking about? A geomagnetic storm is not an EMP. Electronics are not affected by the fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field but long conductors (like power lines) are. The problem is induced currents over long distances.

A geomagnetic storm creates a fluctuating magnetic field which may create one or several electromagnetic pulse's. You are mistaking an EMP with a HEMP (High Altitude electromagnetic pulse) device which is when a nuclear warhead is detonated in the atmosphere.

reply to post by IronVelvet

The geomagnetic storm will always reach a HIGH POINT where the number and energy of electrons is at its greatest vibration/ electrical frequency.

I'm not sure what you mean by vibration/ electrical frequency. I'm not sure you understand what a geomagnetic storm is.

It is possible to maintain that high point but not likely.

If you're talking about the particle density of the CME which causes a geomagnetic storm, that "high point" can last for hours as can the geomagnetic storm.

Electronics have wires in them, wires are affected by the magnetic field, it is simply that long power lines are MORE LIKELY to be affected by the fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field.

Long power lines produce strong electric currents induced by the fluctuations because they are long. During a very powerful geomagnetic storm potentials of about 12 volts/km (of power line) might be produced. I don't know of any electronic devices which are a kilometer long and most could probably survive a 12 volt surge anyway.

The Earth's magnetic field at the Earth's surface is many times weaker than that of a refrigerator magnet. Move a refrigerator magnet slowly near an iPhone and you will effectively simulate the effects of a very, very powerful geomagnetic storm on that iPhone. I'm thinking nothing will happen to it.

There's a you tube channel by a guy who calls himself "suspicious0bservers"
He addresses sunspots etc each day in something he calls "the three minute news"
Look at that each morning and you will have warning of any big CME ejections from the sun.

reply to post by davjan4

Or you can go here:
www.swpc.noaa.gov...
www.swpc.noaa.gov...

Updated twice a day and probably a bit more reliable.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by IronVelvet

 

The geomagnetic storm will always reach a HIGH POINT where the number and energy of electrons is at its greatest vibration/ electrical frequency.

I'm not sure what you mean by vibration/ electrical frequency. I'm not sure you understand what a geomagnetic storm is.

It is possible to maintain that high point but not likely.

If you're talking about the particle density of the CME which causes a geomagnetic storm, that "high point" can last for hours as can the geomagnetic storm.

Electronics have wires in them, wires are affected by the magnetic field, it is simply that long power lines are MORE LIKELY to be affected by the fluctuations in the Earth's magnetic field.

Long power lines produce strong electric currents induced by the fluctuations because they are long. During a very powerful geomagnetic storm potentials of about 12 volts/km (of power line) might be produced. I don't know of any electronic devices which are a kilometer long and most could probably survive a 12 volt surge anyway.

The Earth's magnetic field at the Earth's surface is many times weaker than that of a refrigerator magnet. Move a refrigerator magnet slowly near an iPhone and you will effectively simulate the effects of a very, very powerful geomagnetic storm on that iPhone. I'm thinking nothing will happen to it.

edit on 2/7/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Dude electrons vibrate, a geomagnetic storm produces high amounts of electrons that get very excited also known as a high frequency, stop nitpicking. The HIGH POINT is the point at which the vibrations of electrons are at the greatest FREQUENCY when they impact the earths magnetic field or solar maximum of a coronal mass ejection. A geomagnetic storm can last for a millennia if you want to get technical. LOL did you really just say "Long power lines produce strong electric currents induced by the fluctuations because they are long." I dont think you understand how powerful geomagnetic storms can be. They can reach far greater potentials than 12 v/km. Your stupidity is giving me a headache so I am going to stop replying to you.

reply to post by daryllyn


Academics say things like "Wikipedia" is not reliable but they only say it because Wikipedia (and other free sources of sourced and cited information) are a threat to their monopoly. Non-academics pick up on the hoo-hah and disseminate like it was revelations, part two.

When a prominent wiki article is wrong, it is corrected within minutes or hours. When a physical encyclopedia is wrong, it stays that way until the next edition.

The "news" story in the OP isn't journalism. It's barely creative writing.

reply to post by IronVelvet

Dude electrons vibrate, a geomagnetic storm produces high amounts of electrons that get very excited also known as a high frequency, stop nitpicking.

Actually, a geomagnetic storm is produced by particles from the Sun, it does not produce particles.

The HIGH POINT is the point at which the vibrations of electrons are at the greatest FREQUENCY when they impact the earths magnetic field or solar maximum of a coronal mass ejection.

"Vibrations". "Solar maximum of a coronal mass ejection". I was right. You don't know what a geomagnetic storm is or what its effects are.

I dont think you understand how powerful geomagnetic storms can be. They can reach far greater potentials than 12 v/km.

I don't think you have any idea what the problems of geomagnetic storms actually are. You can start to remedy that by having a look here:
www.fas.org...
www.eiscouncil.com...

Your stupidity is giving me a headache so I am going to stop replying to you.

No need to reply. Instead, try learning something.

reply to post by Phage


I have a question for you because I have always been confused on the difference..

What does an EMP do that is makes it able to fry small circuits?

I understand why a geomagnetic storm would need long lines as a conductor, but why does EMP not share this need?

Thanks in advance phage.

reply to post by Dustytoad

Frequency. Not only is the E1 phase of a nuclear EMP magnitudes more powerful than a geomagnetic storm, it is a high frequency (short wavelength) event. In short, that short wavelength means it can affect small things.

Originally posted by borracho
Just unplugging your device is not enough to protect it form an EMP. The EMP will genereate a huge surge of energy in any and all circuits it hits whetehre they are pugged in or not. The faraday cage is the only way to protect your electronics. It works by diverting the energy around your device and grounding it before it can damage the circuits. I hadn't thought of using a microwave as one, interesting idea. I did see a low cost faraday cage made out of a metal trash can that seemed to work, so it does not have to be an overly complicated structure.

The Faraday cage (I've spent years inside of adjusting HF, VHF, and UHF transceivers) is tied to Earth ground. The problem with an EMP is the ground becomes charged in a wave surge so the current floods from the ground up into devices attached to ground, including the Faraday cage. Little secret no one wants to tell you. A weak EMP will do little of nothing. A Carrington Event level or manmade, not so much.

reply to post by Phage


Haha that actually does make sense to my limited understanding..

Cool.

The thing to consider is how a super massive solar storm would affect the planet, and how destructive (if at all?) it would be to our electrical systems?

According to the Independent article, we had strong solar emissions from the sun in 1956, 1972, 1989, and 2003. This equates to a strong solar emission from the sun every 14 to 20 years, or within every second decade...so, following the pattern of the last 4 emissions, we are looking at a possible strong solar storm between 2017 and 2023? The article suggests that sometime in the near future, one of these strong solar emissions could turn out to be a super massive solar storm?

Most posters have focussed on safety actions for their own electrical systems at home, and if given prior warning, can enact them, whilst electric utility companies nationwide in each country can power down non-essential electrical systems for a short duration, whilst satellite companies can power down their satellites and turn them around. So the real concern is for the duration of no power, and what transformers the solar storm will damage.

No power means no emergency systems, and so the length of the duration of 'power down' will determine how damaging it would be. If the storm managed to hit our systems with greatest damage, it could in a sense send us back into the stone age. To fix the systems takes months. When the few transformers blew in Canada, it took 3 months to get them back online, but what if all the transformers blew, or at least 75% of them? Even 50% of them would take a year or two to bring back online, and electricity could not be re-routed. The hit to the economy would be devastating, much would be lost, and people would behave desperately.

How would you cook? How would you stay warm? How would you keep your short-term perishables valid for consumption? No TV, no internet, no music (eventually because batteries run out). Most people, especially city and town dwellers are not skilled enough, or knowledgeable enough to survive without the back up of a normal running society, and if it comes to a sudden electrical stop...well, it doesn't bear thinking about.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by IronVelvet

 

Dude electrons vibrate, a geomagnetic storm produces high amounts of electrons that get very excited also known as a high frequency, stop nitpicking.

Actually, a geomagnetic storm is produced by particles from the Sun, it does not produce particles.

The HIGH POINT is the point at which the vibrations of electrons are at the greatest FREQUENCY when they impact the earths magnetic field or solar maximum of a coronal mass ejection.

"Vibrations". "Solar maximum of a coronal mass ejection". I was right. You don't know what a geomagnetic storm is or what its effects are.

I dont think you understand how powerful geomagnetic storms can be. They can reach far greater potentials than 12 v/km.

I don't think you have any idea what the problems of geomagnetic storms actually are. You can start to remedy that by having a look here:
www.fas.org...
www.eiscouncil.com...

Your stupidity is giving me a headache so I am going to stop replying to you.

No need to reply. Instead, try learning something.

edit on 2/7/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

As I said stop nitpicking, a geomagnetic storm contains highly excited electrons, which are produced from disturbances within the sun. Using the word "particles" is extremely vague, it would have been more appropriate for you to say the combination of huge bubbles of different gases and plasma moving to the surface of the sun along with changing magnetic fields within the sun, form solar flares and CME's which bombard the earth with solar wind forming geomagnetic storms. LOL go look up a solar maximum of a coronal mass ejection if you dont understand it.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

Frequency. Not only is the E1 phase of a nuclear EMP magnitudes more powerful than a geomagnetic storm, it is a high frequency (short wavelength) event. In short, that short wavelength means it can affect small things.

edit on 2/7/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

That is completely wrong in so many ways. A solar flare can produce an E1 type pulse (if the conditions are just right), but it is extremely rare. A E1 pulse produced by the sun would destroy every electronic device on earth not protected by several inches to several feet of lead or bedrock. Potentially even killing people on the nearest side to the sun. Phage please stop trying to convince others you actually know what you are talking about. Last transmission.

So in other words in reality, we won't know wayyyyy ahead of time, yet will have plenty of time too, so no panic either way??

reply to post by hp1229


And the U.S. congress recently refused to invest a few measly million dollars to protect our grid against this inevitability... despite the scores of scientists and engineers who testified to the bored, borderline retarded representatives of this great democracy.

This solar storm IS gonna happen, just like it did in the 1800's and it's going to suck when it does if we continue to ignore this. We don't even make certain vital components of our grid in this country anymore.

Are we truly so collectively stupid? Never-mind, don't answer that.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
So in other words in reality, we won't know wayyyyy ahead of time, yet will have plenty of time too, so no panic either way??

The 30 minute part is just to assess the exact strength/direction.. But about 12 hours to 60 hours before that we will know it's coming.. This has been my point all along.

The article is pretty silly considering they are trying to scare you guys and used a CME speed 7 times smaller than the one I linked to, which was the fastest ever recorded (within error of measurement), which would take 12.9 hours to get here..

ATS will warn you way before the internet goes out if that's what you are asking.
Hopefully the TV news would too.

Hmmm. Okay, you guys are scaring me now (almost as much as my own ignorance of, well, everything, scares me).

Does this mean my plan to hide out under the bed is just flat-out no good?

This is an interesting topic, and I'm going to read up on all of this so I won't feel so left behind when y'all hit the speed of light with your info. However, a massive solar storm is something I can't do anything about and something that is totally beyond my control, so while I'd like to learn about them, I can't see myself getting panicked over it. Anyway, I'm too busy worrying about SuperStorm Nemo, the Snowstorm That Ate 2013, which is due to hit here where I am sometime tomorrow.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Chances are that most people won't get the warning in that 30 minutes. I need time to wrap my xbox in aluminium foil.

Well if my power strip and xbox are turned off (as they are when I am not home) then an EMP won't harm my xbox, correct? I went for a degree in electronics computer engineering, and as far as we learned, only objects with power to them would be fried. I've also watched on Sci Channel that satellites could be equipped with a sensor that could shut them off until the flare has passed.

Originally posted by daryllyn
reply to post by TauCetixeta

 

Check Wikipedia.

Wiki is not a reliable source.

Just sayin'....

The article is saying that we would have a 30 minute warning before it ejects, not a 30 minute warning of it hitting the earth.

edit on 7-2-2013 by daryllyn because: (no reason given)

Yes it is. Most wiki articles have tens, if not hundreds, of citations at the bottom. It's as reliable a source as any.

Originally posted by SixX18

Originally posted by SpearMint
Chances are that most people won't get the warning in that 30 minutes. I need time to wrap my xbox in aluminium foil.

Well if my power strip and xbox are turned off (as they are when I am not home) then an EMP won't harm my xbox, correct? I went for a degree in electronics computer engineering, and as far as we learned, only objects with power to them would be fried. I've also watched on Sci Channel that satellites could be equipped with a sensor that could shut them off until the flare has passed.

edit on 2/7/13 by SixX18 because: (no reason given)

There are lots of information being passed around that is simply untrue or myths spread by more people. The other problem with "american news and information" channels like the Sci channel is that it spreads propaganda, and very easily. In this case the propaganda is to prevent you from becoming scared. Because in fact most satellites are defenseless. It is possible for a satellite to withstand a solar flare with radiation hardening and a sensor to trigger the mechanism. But even if the satellite could withstand the solar maximum of the CME, (which is highly unlikely given that the sun can produce an x28+ class solar flare) it would be disabled over the lengthy period the earth and magnetic fields would be subject to the solar storm. It was originally thought that the biggest solar flare was an x28 which was later revised to an x45 (although I would not be surprised if larger was possible). Given the mini solar flares we get on a daily basis, which are minut compared to what our sun is capable of. Your xbox will be fine, BUT if we were to be hit by lets say an x28, ALL OF YOUR ELECTRONICS WOULD BE USELESS. BURNT CHIPS!