I'm sure they'd like to hear your theories as they search for a clean drink of water..something that all of us have and take for granted.

No one said anything about industiralizing a country that can feed itself and is relatively healthy but to keep Africa in it's current state of starvation merely to preserve "its culture" is as Mr. Moore is quoted as saying..".that kind of arrogance that is coming from a movement that is basically white upper-middle class and is saying that it's neat to have Africans with no electricity. They are mainly political activists with not very much actual science background who are using the rhetoric of environmentalism to push agendas that are more political than they are ecological."

Thats what I'm saying. Your stance is political and has no ecological basis. Its a damn shame these two very different disciplines have been force-mated into this bastardized ideology.

I'm sure when they held the summit in Africa, they all felt justified bellying up to endless buffets while 2 miles away 5 year old kids drank from a mud puddle. It was shameful and had the President chosen to attend such a farce, then I would have called him an enemy to ecology. I'm glad that instead he chose to budget 15 billion dollars for aids relief and food.

Those people don't want charity and they don't want to continue to live as they do just to preserve the ambiance so every now and then Julia Roberts can go visit and come back with something to bitch about. They want into the world markets and they want what we all have, advantages of technology, medicine, dentistry, agriculture.

How dare any one of us put forth the idea that industrialization should be kept from them on the basis of baseless claims by people who haven't a clue how the environment works much less what role CO2 even plays in the atmosphere, hydosphere, flora and fauna. has anyone even botherd to see that the increase in CO2 has followed the warm up period and may be playing a very important role in spurring increased plant growth and plankton growth?

I enjoyed reading that article. Thanx cold anger

But let me just say this; in my back yard (the UK) there is a similar thing is happening, though not as bad as in the States. The most popular national newspaper was so pro war (though they deny it, of course, saying that war is bad etc.) I am convinced that they are a media front for the NWO or Bilderberg or some other such group.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Skip the virus crap. Cut to the bone.

True environmental issues have been highjacked by the left and twisted into their own agenda. Same goes with many issues.

People, even those who are semiliterate on issues, can sense BS, and that is why so many voted against the continuation of the garbage.

While there is a reson for concern in the area of fascism, the most deadly across-the-board assault against the constitution is by the left, that is tireless and continuous.

Either way, both are working toward the same goal, and the continuous drum of politics (I am guilty of beating it as well as it is my favorite sport) clouds it.

Elections is BS. It's unstable, expensive and shifting like the wind. There is no such thing as a democracy. It has never worked. The only correct way to govern is through a rightious monarchy. Not a tyrannical kingdom ruled by the rich families, but a responsible and highly skilled monarchy under God where the ruler faces consequences if he/she doesn't rule in rightiousness.

Would a multinational company choose a presindent or a CEO just because he or she is popular and is good at making speeches? Of course not. They support the one who knows what he or she is doing, who has proven to be the best man for the job. Then why do they govern countries by popularity and retorics alone? The voice of the people should be on the streetcorners and the squares. And the king should listen to them of course, but not be forced to fulfill the demands of retorically ingenious populists seeking socio-egoistic fame. Environmental issues can only be solved by force and by a responcible government seeking nothing else than the general wellbeing of society and nature.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Daystar
I enjoyed reading that article. Thanx cold anger

But let me just say this; in my back yard (the UK) there is a similar thing is happening, though not as bad as in the States. The most popular national newspaper was so pro war (though they deny it, of course, saying that war is bad etc.) I am convinced that they are a media front for the NWO or Bilderberg or some other such group.

Thank u for reading it, and yes NWO is the responsable for the media lies, u are right dude...

astrocreep, about the bit you quoted. I don't think you have to increase emissions to expand your economy, not as long as we can find cleaner ways to produce energy etc...

Basically, most Western countries went through a very dirty version of industrialisation (dirty in terms of carbon), there's no reason that non-polluting power sources couldn't be exploited in developing nations instead of Carbon fuel sources. Of course, that means that the tech already has to be widespread, and that's the job of the first world.

Anyway, I don't want to see Africans starving, I also do want to see CO2 emissions reduced. I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive.

Dom, you make a lot of sense there. I remember the dirty era when I was boy. The river I liked to fish in polluted, the hilltops strip-mined, and roads built hap-hazardly disreguarding things in nature we should have protected. The enemy was poverty and lots of it. People so concerned with eating and shelter never worried about the environment.

But now I see the river clean again and teaming with fish. The hilltops reclaimed and abundant with wildlife like Elk, Deer, and even black bear. The only thing missing is the widespread poverty. I found that when people can meet their basic needs easily, a lot of the time, their values return to landscaping, recycling, composting, and a numder of things to make their homes seem as closed to a natural paradise as they can get them.

And now, public money put toward studying the affects putting a highway through will have on various ecological aspects including, in my state, carst regions and wetlands. Why? Because the wealth is sufficient to make these viable concerns. And the road I refer to, a trans-American Interstate has been changed several times because of the above variables.

I received an ad wanting me to join some Arbor club and for 10 dollars I'd receive a bunch of trees to plant. They said it is imparative that I do this for many reasons, neighborhood beautification, help moderate the temperature around the house, etc.

Other reasons that fall 100% in the junk science area are:
Trees remove the CO2 from the air that creates the Greenhouse effect, and they also scrub the air clean of other pollutants.

Fact of the matter is grasslands are much more effective than trees. Interesting how the pseudo-science calls for people to plant trees and trees and trees, and these same plants take away the grassland.

Trees breathe CO2. CO2 is necessary for their survival. By the Arbor Society saying trees remove CO2 from the, it would also need to say in the same manner that we mammals remove the corrosive Oxygen from the air that the mean ol' trees put into the air in the place of the CO2 they take away.

Technology makes the environment better. A city in my state, Birmingham, used to be one of the filthiest places in the known universe, you could cut the air with a tongue depressor. In my younger, enviro-activist minded days, it was what came to mind whenever I heard the tune "The Won't Be Country Music, There Won't Be Rock And Roll" by C.W. McCall. Today, while Birmingham is still a place of production and manufacture, the environment is so much cleaner you wouldn't recognize it.

Africa and Asia aren't going that way. As a matter of fact, Africa is destroying itself because of old tradition which destroys the land. The desert is growing there, hundreds of miles of plains have turned to desert and it continues. This is not due to 21st century corporations but their own ignorance.

We have no need in attending a summit of people that should learn from the western nation, and a summit that clearly had intentions of hobbling one nation specifically.

And again, the trees, even in the rain forests, aren't as efficient as grasslands. You want to help the environment? By an acre of land and plant good, thick, grass.
But darn! Those evil, CO2 producing vegatarian mammals will eat it and survive. What to do, what to do!

[Edited on 9-5-2003 by Thomas Crowne]

Well, I feel this might be a bit askew of the original post but since you mentioned grass land, Thomas...

I don't think its neccesarily wrong to plant a tree although i don't see anything wrong with removing one either for timber or because it poses dangers or its been hit by bacterial or fungal parasites or because its among a group that is so thick , it poses forest fire threats.

But grass and lawns have long been demonized by the political enviro group. Why? Because the clippings fill land fills? Not hardly. In fact as Thomas stated, it used CO2 faster and more importantly, grass acts as a natural water filter and also controls erosion. Most of us recycle clippings back into the yard or into the old compost heap for feeding the veggies next year. This "asses against grasses" campaign is another example of flawed science. And of course here's a quote from a non-political expert in the field...


"A mere 625 square feet of lawn provides enough oxygen for one person for an entire day, and a large lawn could help more than 100 people breathe easier. On a block of eight average homes, front lawns have the same cooling effect as 70 tons of air conditioning. Turf grasses absorb gaseous pollutants such as carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide, and trap an estimated 12 tons of dirt and dust that would be released each year into the atmosphere. A buffer zone of grass around buildings helps retard the spread of fires. Lawns also prevent soil erosion, reduce runoff and filters contaminants from rainwater. Lawns help keep our lakes and streams clean by filtering and purifying rainwater, and they do the job better than plants such as groundcovers or wildflowers. "

-Paul James, master gardener.

Dosent any one care about the solution. Solution is the key to change. If we can not come up with a solution then we might get infected ourselves.

Cold anger you are talking about Unemployment compensation. My opinion on that topic is that depending upon the Unemployment rate, compensation should afforded until the rate drops below a certain standard. In the case of the US that amount is about 6% my opinion is that what your country offers is something people could try to take advantage of. But simply stated in such forms of assistance the rule in general is to apply for jobs which is easily verified.

Fact of he matter is Cold anger your article stresses that no root cause which is based in reality. Exist for why the US is responding aggressively to countries, which in the last 30 years (since Vietnam) have consistently made threats.

Your article calls what is a response, a disease. Which is based upon nothing
more than the desire of special interest groups and media hype.

The problem with the most recent presidential election was an issue
related to Florida but specifically the problem occured with Dade, Broward and Palm Beach County.

Respectively the major cities in those counties are Miami, Fort Lauderdale and Palm Beach. Everywhere else in this country the system worked and by the way the same applies to the issue of our social service agencies.

To me it seems strange Cold Anger that you begin a topic and when a response is made which challenges the voracity of the article you respond by telling me there are plenty of Jobs in Holland and ask me what I think of your unemployment compensation program.

Despite the fact that your response seemed more a display of sarcasm from the standpoint of making clear that you do not need a job. My response to you was intent upon, rather than going into detail about the very real problem, to offer you the opportunity to experience it for yourself.

My firm belief is, once you have had the experience you will understand exactly where I am coming from.


Having played along I do now ask

What are your thoughts?

[Edited on 10-5-2003 by Toltec]

What is wrong Cold anger did your Cuban freinds tell you its all very true???

Cold Anger states in page 1

Note:When u answer me that iīll tell what i think about cubans in florida and miami (i have a lot of cuban friends)...

He made himself very clear beyond any shadow of doubt. My question at present is if he a man of his word, or should this thread be something considered knee deep in the same crap several countries in Europe are in.

Well it s been two days surprised as I was that Cold Anger had not responded I took the liberty of using ATS technology and clicking on that new Icon that says Find. And guess what Cold Anger has been online since my last response here and this is what he had to say.

Inform people will be one task, another will be what libertaror is saying, we have to do both, open minds and kill elites!! both are needed for this...

I agree with AV and Libertaror, we need to wake up the people, do you know how easy is to get people angry sick and tyred of society, lies, corruption, suffering etc etc? the entire earth is full of people like that, just a little spark and BOOM!

I don't know but does that seem like a liberal view, perhaps Cold anger is a neo/fascist libertarian

On the other hand perhaps not.

Or maybe the fact that he wants to kill the elite puts him in another category??

Cold Anger you are right on one point people does get tired of the lies...

And that’s what it’s all about

The lies about the torture chambers

The corruption the torture chambers allow

The suffering caused by the torture chambers

All of which occurred with UN permision

What did your Cuban friends say Cold Anger about what was going on here in Miami???



[Edited on 12-5-2003 by Toltec]

Originally posted by Toltec
The problem with the most recent presidential election was an issue
related to Florida but specifically the problem occured with Dade, Broward and Palm Beach County.


Despite the fact that your response seemed more a display of sarcasm from the standpoint of making clear that you do not need a job.

First of all sorry for the delay i wasnīt afraid of answering or whatever u thought, just a little time in weekend for internet...

Toltec Seems to be that u didnīt understand me, first, i do not talk about the elections, (and there is a note at the end of the article where i state that there is no difference in administration)
2nd point, for me that is biased already, i donīt believe in the media crap talking about differences of votes between gore or bush or whoever, i just do not believe it,(pucherazo) is called in spanish the art of manipulate elections...

Anyway be careful refering to cubans,
1st those people have suffered the insanity of castro, yes, nobody said castro is good, but as u see informed about the situation with cubans, u know how they live, there, medication, the system, no property for anyone, etc etc, they just wanna have a normal live, u should go there really and see how can a family survive daily in cuba, now if u refer to the asilum situation of cubans in miami and florida, i am gonna tell you that everywhere in the world people is going in asilum status to live in other countries, they arenīt responsable for the insane actions of the elititists, and you try to blame the cubans living in that for elections? Are u trying to mean that? i hope not, because will be pretty ignorant to blame that people for what happened,
if u mean the lazy cubans that are trying just to have a good life by not doing anything, making use of the asylum but aporting nothing, is also nothing new, i donīt defend those kind of people, i believe that if u move to another country is for good, not for being lazy, or steal, or disturb, but those people had also enough suffering, u see? i donīt agree with the non-rational people that doesnīt know how to thank what u give them, i believe in kindly people, and cubans most of them are VERY KINDLY PEOPLE, more than much of you can think, and NO I AM NOT CUBAN if itīs what u think.
Corruption, donīt even try to blame them about that, because corruption is not defined by nationality, in every country exists corruption...
For your information, some of my cubans friends didnīt even wanted to go to america, because people will
will reject them socially due to "terrorism" "inmigration" or "asilum" and itīs not enought to live under dictatorship to move to a country where ppl will complaint about you....

About the job compensation here in holland,
I DID NOT SAY IT FOR MEAN THAT I DO NOT NEED TO WORK, but i think u ment it for offence, anyway,
if u didnīt understand it, i am telling you that here in holland we have a high tax rate, very high, but not even 60% than what u do have in america, u have nhow they try to keep the country without homeless people
Listen to me, if u worked in something related with employement u should realize what i said about our program in holland, offers a minimum to everyone, at least 750 euros monthly, can make somebody survive, but u go to england and u have the 40 pound week compensation for unemployment....
And america after all those taxes, "being a potence" bla bla bla, has private health (something that cubans have public ok is much worse medics and hospitals, but everyone can access them), no distinction in name, money, whatever, is a person and needs help is in...
Or all the robberies, most of the times is from people that has no option to survive than steal... Because the system is so...
Very funny how u defend the US position, but makes me laugh the 250 years of history after the massacre of the native indians in north america, the british colonies then
the 13 first states bla bla... So the shortest period of time for a country, the most powerful resources, controlling the world wide economy, that u presume to live in the land of the free, and the american dream...
The culture of the action films, bombs, police, famous people, waste of money, waste of oil with the SUV when the speed limit is 120 KM/H....
Then Attack countries because there is "insane dictators to erradicate" when already who takes that decision is another insane dictator...
Where the first thing to take care of is the health, and make it private, have money to have health, same as your political campaigns, have political campaign of millions of $ and u will win, so the wealth is who can be elected, where there is more police per person that in any other place on the wolrd, biggest amount of people in prison in the world....
So what are u trying to fix or help in the rest of the wolrd with such a situation in yours, is pretty sarcastic you know, pretty funny that u see americanīs system as the best, but is the worse for think about people, howcome u pay such amount of taxes and u get nothing back?, i mean we pay almost 42% of our salary, and 20% in all the products..., we have public health insurance, i pay like 30 euros a month, and i have access to whatever i need whenever i need, teeth, operation, longs, eyes, whatever!!!
And then we have the streets clean, not much police, and no criminality, drugs here are seen as not bad, half of them are legal to consum, of course makes better to have it legalized, (iīve been in both type i know the difference), and still, after paying all that, having the cities looking so clean, green, tidy, all works, but u are the ones who are going to bombard anothers for not being "agree" with your dictator policy, and u want to make good to the planet?

The earth gains 9000 People an hour...
That is 921 672 000 more people by 2012...
Or one more India.
There is no place anymore for people who donīt want to share.
How can we let everyone know that, quickly without a gun?
United States Consumption Resources of Worldsīs Natural Resources = 40%
Military budget 2002 = $318.000.000.000


Please now tell me what does a cuban person responsability with your goverment, your system, and tell me, if u donīt like the dutch idea for unemployement, i expect america has one better, and also for people cannot find a job that easy...

Originally posted by Toltec
Well it s been two days surprised as I was that Cold Anger had not responded I took the liberty of using ATS technology and clicking on that new Icon that says Find. And guess what Cold Anger has been online since my last response here and this is what he had to say.

Inform people will be one task, another will be what libertaror is saying, we have to do both, open minds and kill elites!! both are needed for this...

I agree with AV and Libertaror, we need to wake up the people, do you know how easy is to get people angry sick and tyred of society, lies, corruption, suffering etc etc? the entire earth is full of people like that, just a little spark and BOOM!

I don't know but does that seem like a liberal view, perhaps Cold anger is a neo/fascist libertarian

On the other hand perhaps not.

Or maybe the fact that he wants to kill the elite puts him in another category??

Cold Anger you are right on one point people does get tired of the lies...

And that’s what it’s all about

The lies about the torture chambers

The corruption the torture chambers allow

The suffering caused by the torture chambers

All of which occurred with UN permision

What did your Cuban friends say Cold Anger about what was going on here in Miami???



[Edited on 12-5-2003 by Toltec]

MMM still sleeping mate?
Donīt you see where is the focus of the problem?
Can u please be more kind and show respect to something serious?
I mean it, if you canīt understand that the solution is kill elites, then show me what solution u have to stop this sickness called world, and make people live in a world without guns, without insults, with grown up people, not need of crimes, robberings etc etc, everyone with the minimum, food, a place to live.
Everyone diserves to live if he understands right from wrong without a need of a RULE or a LAW.
Can i ask u, before any law was in society, when u had a friend and u steal his food, u already know that is a bad action, having rules or not, u make the difference.
We donīt need this crazy massacre to continue, we are leaving ourselves go as well with the patriotism, the media brainwash, and so on... But Toltec focus on the problem, and u will get the same solution as i said...
There is no other way, i am sure that 99% of the ppl that is not wealthy, or better said, the proletarian, we are the system, we are the ones who keep the society, and we leave that to happend, u should blame yourself for not doing anything than blame cubans of florida...

Cold anger it seems clear you do not understand where I am coming from I am not blaming the Cuban people for what is going on in Miami. I am blaming Fidel Castro.

Understand Cold Anger, the problems that are occurring in Miami with respect to its social service programs are very serious. Children unaccounted for and people who come from Cuba seeking asylum reporting that in Miami there lives are being threatened by others, who arrived from Cuba who claim to be working for Fidel Castro.

Its actually a problem that has been going on since the first group of people arrived from Cuba, estimates number in the thousands of Cuban residents in Miami who support and provide aid and comfort to the Castro Regime. I myself am a witness to this matter, in respect to it being a reality of life here in Miami.

Fact of the matter is I have several Cuban friends as well, whom without reservation. Will be very clear with respect to the problems they have in respect to this matter. The article which began this thread suggest that despite the manner in which the Presidential elections turned out Americans support what President Bush is doing. I would suggest that one reason the elections turned out the way they did is because. The Majority of Cubans in Miami also support a republican administration.

By taking the action that Castro committed to (which in Miami goes well beyond a forgone conclusion) Fidel Castro committed forces to an extent that it is equivalent to an invasion. They have not acted to directly attack the military industrial complex of this nation but rather engaged in interfering with the personal and professional lives of the common civilians (non-combatants). Black-mail, threats of death and various other personal types of abuse are there tools (and this has been going on now since the beginning of the Castro Regime).

My solution is to deal with those
countries which openly engage in the above mentioned abuses as well as more obvious forms of torture and murder for the purpose of maintaining there political control. It is you who are sleeping Cold Anger, so ready are you to embrace the very systems of government that kill for personal pleasure every day.

And now you are prepared to protect those systems of Government by professing a philosophy of killing those in power who wish to consolidate the planets system of rule.

And why because of what you think you’re no different than the people you hate cold anger for the reasons you feel that they should be hated (A preemptive attack).

What is funny is the comment about blaming myself I am not Cuban Cold Anger but I am Puerto Rican (you right many Cubans are passive we are the more aggressive Caribbean culture). As a reuslt of what I know and have been exposed to I have not killed anyone, nor have I any intention of killing anyone.

But as anyone who knows me wel, my contribution to stopping this very serious problem here in Miami, few if any can compare.

Now Cold Anger I have a question for you who do you think the Power Elite are and how do you think they relate to the Political elite that you feel should be killed?



[Edited on 13-5-2003 by Toltec]