The Most Important Chart in American Politics

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posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


well im not american so i can say this,

you spend more money on your military than the next 10 countries combined,
the economy is based of military spending,

you need innovation and R&D,
you need to remove stuff like export benefits for companies who offshore jobs,

but most of all

YOU MUST UNDO THE BUSH TAX CUTS

they are structurally damaging your economy.

giving the rich more money wont help, they will just ship it offshore to a tax haven,

the only thing that can save your economy is money in everybody's pocket,
the consummation of goods and services ONLY feeds the economy
MONEY IS CRITICAL TO COMMERCE. when there is a "shortage of the medium of exchange" (money)

when even profitable business cant complete transactions, that is what causes where the us is NOW.

you need to understand taxing billionaires to flood the economy with the medium of exchange (money) is the only thing that will spur growth, (and that means non for the banks till it is profit)

xploder




posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by Kali74
 


Wow thanks for that list. That's quite eye opening.

As I was saying earlier, if manufacturing was still strong in the US, I doubt the recession would have lasted for more than a few years and now you'd be on the up side of things.

You know what's the really sad part about that?

The US prison system employs more prisoners than than the largest employer in the US.

~Tenth



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by wtbengineer
 


The article linked in the OP gives the dates. Its 1992 to 2009. 2000 is when the median household income goes wonky while GDP and productivity climb.

How to fix it where ideas diverge. Interestingly it mentions the chart has been central in Obama campaign stragagy sessions and that Cantor is going to use in a speech to focus the GOP on addressing middle class stagnation.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by beezzer
 



John Maynard Keynes said in 1937: “The boom, not the slump, is the right time for austerity at the Treasury.” Contemporary Keynesian economists argue that budget deficits are appropriate when an economy is in recession, to reduce unemployment and help spur GDP growth.[8]

Economist Paul Krugman explained that a government is not like a household. Across an economy, one person's spending is another person's income. If everyone is trying to reduce their spending, the economy can be trapped in what economists call the paradox of thrift, worsening the recession as GDP falls. If the private sector is unable or unwilling to consume at a level that increases GDP and employment sufficiently, he argued the government should be spending more.[9]


I'm inclined to agree.

Austerity only hurts the middle class, in most cases. The government uses austerity as a means to ignore the larger economic issues on the table.

How are Greece and Spain handling all this austerity? I'm pretty sure the unemployment rate is hovering at like 20%?

Iceland didn't do any austerity a far as I know, and their economy is on the up tick.

There are other ways of getting a stable economy. It actually would be easier if the US had not dismantled it's manufacturing back in the 70's and 80's.

~Tenth

Keynesian economic policies are great in a classroom, but in real life tend not to meet expectations. Plus the time to enact those policies are long gone. We're past all that now.

To borrow XPloDer's analogy, the patient is on the OR table. The patient is crashing. The patient is dying. Keynesian policies are like giving this patient pamphlets on quitting smoking and benefits of jogging.

Spain and Greece are fighting austerity and are now being forced to tighten their belts. If we enact it voluntarily we may stand a chance.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by beezzer
 


well im not american so i can say this,

you spend more money on your military than the next 10 countries combined,
the economy is based of military spending,

you need innovation and R&D,
you need to remove stuff like export benefits for companies who offshore jobs,


Agreed


but most of all

YOU MUST UNDO THE BUSH TAX CUTS

they are structurally damaging your economy.

giving the rich more money wont help, they will just ship it offshore to a tax haven,

the only thing that can save your economy is money in everybody's pocket,
the consummation of goods and services ONLY feeds the economy
MONEY IS CRITICAL TO COMMERCE. when there is a "shortage of the medium of exchange" (money)

when even profitable business cant complete transactions, that is what causes where the us is NOW.

you need to understand taxing billionaires to flood the economy with the medium of exchange (money) is the only thing that will spur growth, (and that means non for the banks till it is profit)

xploder


Obama has already done that. It just hasn't affected the middle class.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Fair enough I'll take that.

But why would the middle class tighten it's belt when those at the top will still live like kings?

Especially since their wealth was made by mostly screwing that middle class worker?

I wonder what kind of growth would be generated if the top 5 companies on DOW or S&P gave ALL their annual bonus funds equally among it's non executive work force?

I'm not disagreeing that spending cuts are required. Really tough ones at that and everybody is going to have to settle down for a moment or two. But the middle class and the poor should be the least effected by all of this.

~Tenth



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


Don't you dare change the rules of the buffet when you've got a handful of really obese patrons who rely upon you to subsidize their overeating! The skinny people can just leave - it's not like they need the food anyway. They're a day or two away from starvation as it is and, hey, God made these decisions. Right? To the victor goes the spoils and all.

You're speaking precariously close to the socialist line here.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 



To borrow XPloDer's analogy, the patient is on the OR table. The patient is crashing. The patient is dying. Keynesian policies are like giving this patient pamphlets on quitting smoking and benefits of jogging.

Spain and Greece are fighting austerity and are now being forced to tighten their belts. If we enact it voluntarily we may stand a chance.


well the first biggest cost is mil spending,
the second biggest is bush tax cuts,

during war the us has tax as high as 70% on income in the top tax bracket

10 years of war, and low taxes CANT WORK

yet the people have no excess money to spend, this stagnates the economy,

without people with money to spend (sometimes called disposable income)
the economy wont grow.

austerity does not address the structural or fundimental problems,
it just addresses the SHORT TERM SYMPTOMS

xploder



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


You know me Heff, I'm a libertarian..ish.

But only after we take back all the things that were stolen from us
.

Most of the wealth held by the elite is blood money, one way or another.

~Tenth



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


John Maynard Keynes was very open about the fact that he felt society should be centrally managed by bankers and intelligentsia. Anything he supported was intended to weaken the independent middle class and create a more centralized version of feudalism, ie "Progressivism".

As for Krugman, his obvious and intense hatred of individual liberty and anything resembling rationality, combined with his absolute lack of knowledge of any economic history prior to 1929 make him a poor choice to quote unless for the mindless sheep who think the New York Times is anything but a weak minded propaganda rag.

Look up a little economic history, brush up on Austrian economics, and recognize that the 2 individuals you quoted are the epitome of global elite supporters who see the middle class as a hindrance to a hive like world run by them and their friends.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by pierregustavetoutant
 


Oh that I knew my friend, I was only posting regarding the specific quotes for austerity. I do believe that most of these economic crises can be, would be avoided by making cuts and the appropriate changes while the economy is in a boom.

I do agree that they were both globalist scum bags though. Isn't everybody in power these days one though?

At least I think so.

We probably agree on a lot of things, even outside of what needs to be done for the economy. I would be interested in knowing what you suggest though. It does seem like you have more knowledge than i do.

~tenth



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by beezzer
 


Fair enough I'll take that.

But why would the middle class tighten it's belt when those at the top will still live like kings?

Especially since their wealth was made by mostly screwing that middle class worker?

I wonder what kind of growth would be generated if the top 5 companies on DOW or S&P gave ALL their annual bonus funds equally among it's non executive work force?

I'm not disagreeing that spending cuts are required. Really tough ones at that and everybody is going to have to settle down for a moment or two. But the middle class and the poor should be the least effected by all of this.

~Tenth


I don't have a problem with the rich not hiding behind loopholes. Not at all.

But that won't fix the problem.

Please allow me an analogy.

The government is like a heroin addict who is committing burglaries to support the habit. (Raising taxes) supplying heroin to the addict might prevent burglaries, but it won't cure the addiction.

Starving the addict might eventually cure the addiction, but it won't stop the thefts.

Treating the addiction and stopping the burglaries has to be done simultaneously in order for success to be achieved.

Just focusing on the wealthy won't rid us of the problem. The drain caused by entitlements also has to be addressed.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:45 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


Austerity cuts spending and cuts entitlements. (One in the same, most often)

Close loopholes. Make the rich pay. Hell, if you close the loopholes and just have them pay the 30% that I do, it'd be enough!



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


But the wealthy are the ones who hire lobbyists to get those tax increase/cuts and subsidies.

Overall, if you want your representatives to give a damn about your pocket book, than create a situation where the economy effects theirs as well.

Cut the wages to median household income for the American Worker. Go through with proper campaign finance reform. Have public funded campaigns. Strike down citizens united.

TBH the more I look into this, the more I see the problem coming from the process of electing our officials.

As long as a career in government is a path to becoming rich, you will always have ahole politicians who are self serving to not only them, but their friends who got them elected in the first place.

~Tenth



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


I completely agree. The problem begins and ends in DC. And as long as their rears are covered, they will care not one bit to what we all are going through.

The government uses justifications, emotions (borrowing again from the addict analogy) to continue it's destructive actions.

We need real people who can stand up and tell the truth and be honest in office.

Diogenes had it easy back then.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:51 PM
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There's demand for greener products, nope can't have those. Our infrastructure is crumbling, nope can't fix it.


Green products are corporate products that have been around for decades none match that most evil fossil fuel in productivity.

Infrastructure are local and state issues that property taxes pay for that gets let out of the conversation, and another part of that conversation is that there are 30-40 million renters who do not pay property taxes that get "a free ride".

Entitlement spending is corporate welfare there are no if ands or buts about it.

Incomes may be down but I would love a chart to show the rise of consumer credit usage for the same period of time.

Go figure some people are upset they don't make enough to go out and buy more corporate products, and claim it is the most important chart in American politics even with trillions spent on that corporate welfare aka entitlement spending.

Lastly I do love the constant vification of corporations when the fact is the largest employer of people in this country is SMALL BUSINESS.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:53 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 



I don't have a problem with the rich not hiding behind loopholes. Not at all.

But that won't fix the problem.

Please allow me an analogy.

The government is like a heroin addict who is committing burglaries to support the habit. (Raising taxes) supplying heroin to the addict might prevent burglaries, but it won't cure the addiction.

Starving the addict might eventually cure the addiction, but it won't stop the thefts.

Treating the addiction and stopping the burglaries has to be done simultaneously in order for success to be achieved.

Just focusing on the wealthy won't rid us of the problem. The drain caused by entitlements also has to be addressed.


interesting analogy you used there^^^^

the structural imbalance has existed since the bush tax cuts,
either you lower mil spending or return to war tax rates,

penalising 300 million Americans so 50 million Americans can afford another luxury launch wont fix squat

my anonlgy

your spending in a time of down turn should INCREASE but not giving money to the speculators and gambling fiends "the banks"'

put it in the pockets of the souce of profits,
people spending money

xploder



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:55 PM
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But the wealthy are the ones who hire lobbyists to get those tax increase/cuts and subsidies.


Sure sure lobbyists get subsidies etc, everyone gets subsidies in this country EVERYONE

I know lobbyists love to get vilified but here is the real deal.

We are all lobbyists every someone makes a thread with a point another posters makes a counter point then others follow suit.

Are all lobbying their opinions hell it even has compensation in the forms of Stars and flags.


Unions are lobbyists hired my those people who pay union dues, everyone has lobbyists.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:55 PM
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In many ways I have spent the last 20 years in a bubble, due to several factors, but one thing I can say is that during the times I lived in the USA I haven't seen a lot of growth. Last time I was in the US prior to 2010 was in 2003 and things seemed relatively okay. People around me were buying McMansions, driving SUVs and had plenty left over for vacations. These were middle and upper middle folks. There seemed to be a lot of those people where I lived and the places I visited, even back home in my home state, little did I realize at that time many of those people were maxed out with debt, even then.

I left the US and came back in 2010 and I was shocked. I saw no further progress like I thought I'd see. I saw decline in many areas that before seemed stable. The Mcmansions were foreclosed on, the suvs were all on used car lots and vacation was out of the question for many of my former middle class friends and relatives. My bubble had violently burst in the first 6 months of being back here. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out what happened between 03 and 10. I talk with Americans who haved lived through the last 7 years here in the states and they offer me various explainations, most of which make sense to me, but as someone walking in late to the party, not realizing the downward spiral of the last two decades fully, I can say that now that I am living it myself, it saddens me to see the lack of economic progress we have made. I think the only reason why the Clinton years seemed good were because it was an artificial propping up of an already weak economy, or I would have recognized the stagnation sooner.

To those who have been living through this and suffering because of it, I feel a deep sense of sadness toward because, especially for those in my generation who thought they were entering into adulthood filled with prosperity and advancement there has often been bitter disappointment and a sense of disillusion. Coming into adulthood during the Clinton years created a sense of hope that the new millennium would bring exciting opportunities and growth, the bright future of the Internet was the beacon for a new era of possibilities. Little did many of us understand with the widespread use of the Internet entire sectors of the economy were destroyed or put on life support, and that was just one factor. now after 2 sustained wars, the crash of our financial sector, 2 presidents that have done little to solve the problems, vast job losses and stagnate wages, it is hard for many to feel hopeful.

I wish I had something to add to bring back that hope, but as of right now, I have seen nothing on the horizon to be hopeful about. These times are dark, and I think the only way to get through them is to huddle close together and be there for each other. Maybe once we learn how to do that, we can put our heads together and come up with some ways to solve this mess, because relying on govt or big business to do it, isn't going to get us far IMO.

Sorry if this post is too rambling or personal, this OP triggered a lot of pent up thoughts I needed to verbalize. Thanks to all for the thoughtful thread so far.



posted on Feb, 5 2013 @ 10:57 PM
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edit on 5-2-2013 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)





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