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Billy Meier, Debunking, Defending, whichever....

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posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
Alas, I think we'll find it self-published or some other such unsupportable means, but still, worth a shot here.


I think they are self-published actually, but I don't see how that invalidates them, unless you feel he hoaxed the date of the publications, because if he did, it would be blatant fraud, and I think it would be illegal. It would be very easy to catch out as well. Are you up for carbon dating of the book?




posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:02 AM
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"As in George Adamski? I wouldn't go saying that too loudly here, hehe... Compared to Adamski, Billy's case is scientific fact!
"

Hi Gazrok,

Yep, I know where you're getting at and besides Adamski's case was 50 years ago, some people here can't count that far.Yet I also know a bit more, far more then you realize.I'm still compiling data on that case.Did you know for instance that there are over 40 eyewitness reports directly or indirectly supporting Adamski? On a sidenote here, are eyewitness reports admissable as evidence in a court of law? It's ok if people make uneducated guesses when they haven't done any research, it's quite naturally actually.When I have enough data and time, I might even start a topic here on Adamski.I bet the laughter would quiet down over time.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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I've actually looked well into Adamski's case....when I was doing a persuasive essay in college, about UFOs not being spacecraft (I had to choose a side, even though I believe in it, we had to take the opposing view).

There are (were) over 40 people who would tell you that David Koresh is Jesus, and swear to it, even allow their kids to be molested, but that doesn't make him Jesus. Such is the nature of cults.


I think they are self-published actually, but I don't see how that invalidates them, unless you feel he hoaxed the date of the publications, because if he did, it would be blatant fraud, and I think it would be illegal. It would be very easy to catch out as well. Are you up for carbon dating of the book?


I actually think him quite guilty of fraud...but thats beside the point.
I suppose, that if self published, there would still be some kind of legal actions taken, etc. that could substantiate that the book in question did indeed get published at that time. Perhaps they filed for a copyright, etc.? My point is that we'd need to see a non-Meier affiliated source collaborating that the book was indeed published at that time. In the US, this would be a piece of cake to verify, even for back then, but I'm not sure about Sweden.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 12:20 PM
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What I was saying is that I'm not prepared to pay for every book or leavelet from the Meier case in order to study it.So if any Meier supporters wants to send me information, then that's just fine.Besides, you don't have to act like Meier and FIGU don't have any money.They always had enough to pay for a lawyer.Members of FIGU also have to contribute an ammount of their salery along with mandatory work.Did you know that?


I do not feel the Meier camp is obligated at all, to send free copies of their books to people. If you were serious in your research, you would purchase them. As I said, there is already a lot of free information available from Meier, and you would be hard pressed to find other organizations who do that. I think you are demanding a bit too much mate.


You obviously live on an island suffering from a mild case of 'Europhobia'


I am from England, which is an integral part of Europe.


I understand international politics just fine.Europe is not going to attack Russia and Russia is not going to attack Europe.Under the present thread of muslim extremism I would say both Russia and Europe have similar problems and are united in combatting them.I wouldn't be surprised if Russia would join the EU within a decade or two but for that to happen the Russian conservatives need to leave the playing field.Besides if Russia is to invade Europe as Meier prophecized then first they need to rebuild their army, and there are no signs on that.


No, mate, you do understand international politics, if you think Russia does not have a capable army, or that it would align with Europe, or that Russia is against the Muslim countries.

1. Russia has fought a cold war with US, which is an ally of Europe
2. Russia is not a member of NATO
3. Russia did not support any of the American and European wars against Iraq, Yugoslavia etc
4. Russia supports the Middle Eastern countries, and is their major weapons supplier.
5. Russia is trying, though invariably failing to form an eastern alliance, with China and India. China being US biggest rival.
6. Russia loses it's balance of power with the EU and US dominating the world.

It only takes common sense to realise that in a WWIII, Russia would not be fighting for America, and it makes political sense, that Russia would not allow the US and EU to gang up on the world, and dominate it. If you think Russia is going to just sit quiet, or surrender itself to them, you don't know Russia. Therefore the scenorio of Russia invading Europe is a good possibility. To say, "it won't happen" is either denial or plain ignorance.

As for Russian army:

3523 aircraft, of which 1455 are combat
6000 nuclear missiles
13 ballistic missile submarines, 14+ nuclear submarines, 8 missiles submarines, 18 conventional submarines, 1 aircraft carrier, 5 cruisers, 23 destroyers, 125 corvettes
Total active military: 960,600
Reserves: 20,000,000

Source: www.fas.org

That is one powerful army, and it is fully capable of invading Europe, and with confidence.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 12:50 PM
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That is one powerful army, and it is fully capable of invading Europe, and with confidence.


You forgot to mention all of their aircraft....another key part.

Still, I wouldn't think them logistically capable of sustaining an "invasion" across Europe at present with conventional weapons. In surrounding nations, most definitely, and then possibly branching out from there...but eventually, the conflict would go nuclear...as they threatened nuclear powers' borders.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:06 PM
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In surrounding nations, most definitely, and then possibly branching out from there...but eventually, the conflict would go nuclear...as they threatened nuclear powers' borders.


Yup. Although Russia is more powerful than any individual European nation or a collection of a few, the combined power of the EU would make it very difficult for Russia to sustain an invasion. It can be assured, if this were to happen, the war would quicky go nuclear. This is basically what Meier's prophecies are saying.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:12 PM
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"I've actually looked well into Adamski's case....when I was doing a persuasive essay in college, about UFOs not being spacecraft (I had to choose a side, even though I believe in it, we had to take the opposing view).

There are (were) over 40 people who would tell you that David Koresh is Jesus, and swear to it, even allow their kids to be molested, but that doesn't make him Jesus. Such is the nature of cults."

And thus we reason.Let me make it clear that I don't take everything for granted on the Adamski case and some matters are indeed questionable but there's more to it then simply declaring it a hoax.Your reasoning, that 40 religious people could swear that someone is Jesus Christ, shows where you're getting at.Funny enough Gazrok, there were people from different parts of the globe that observed the exact same 'ship' that Adamski had photographed.Don't you find that strange?
Some of those people were even.........police officers.

Timothy Good - Above Top Secret (page 115-116)

Structured UFO Encountered by Three Police Officers

On a January night in 1978 Sergeant Tony Dodd and Police Constable Alan Dale were driving in the vicinity of Cononley, near Skipton, Yorkshire, in their official line of duty, when a strange aerial machine came into view.'We were going down a country lane,' Sergeant Dodd told me, 'and you know what it's like up there - it was dark - and the only light you've got is your headlights.Suddenly the road in front of us lit up.Of course, the immediate reaction is, where's the light coming from? But it was coming from above.We stopped the car, looked up, and there was this thing coming from our
right to our left.' The object was about 100 feet away, moving at less than 40 mph.'It
was glowing; like a bright white incandescent glow, and it came right over our heads,' the police sergeant recalled.'The whole unit was glowing.It was as if the metal of what this thing was made of
was white hot.And there were these three great spheres underneath, like huge ball-bearings - three of them equally placed around it.There was a hollow area underneath and like a skirting around the bottom, but these things protruded below that.
'It was absolutely awe-inspiring to see it.I don't know how to explain it to you - it was such a beautiful-looking thing.It seemed to have portholes round the dome - an elongated domed area.And what stood out more than anything else was the coloured lights dancing round on the outside of the skirt at the bottom...which gave the visual impression that it was rotating.Now whether the thing was going round, or whether it was just the lights that were going round and give that impression, I don't know.I would say it was the lights that were going round because, when you were looking
at the portholes, they didn't seem to be going round in a circle as you would have expected.'The object was completely soundless. 'When the thing had passed over our heads it sort of went into the
distance then suddenly appeared to come down: there's a big wood to our left, right on a distant hillside, and it appeared to go down in that wood,' said Sergeant Dodd, who added that a third police
officer had seen the object. 'We carried on along this road and as we got towards the village we
could see these lights coming towards us from the other direction - it was another police car.We stopped, and he said, "I've just been watching this damn great UFO, and it seems to have come right down somewhere over here!"''
The three spheres seen under the craft have been observed in a number of incidents, most notably by the much vilified George Adamski, whose photographs and film of this type of craft taken in 1952 and 1965 have been ridiculed and denounced as hoaxes.I have spent enough time with Tony Dodd to know he is completely sincere, and the fact that a highly unusual and silent machine was seen by three police officers must surely count as compelling evidence in the search for proof of UFO reality.

Source: Timothy Good - Above Top Secret

Well Gazrok, seems to me you haven't really looked into the Adamski case and I doubt 3 police officers from Britain would belong to Adamski's cult some 10 years after his death.But I guess we're getting a little off-topic here.So lets save this discussion for later.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:21 PM
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Actually, I OWN that particular book (one of my favorites). There was nothing to prevent Adamski from drawing upon REAL sightings by others in the past, so no, I don't find it odd that these officers saw a similar craft after Adamski's account. You'll also note that Mr. Good considers Adamski as likely debunked.



The three spheres seen under the craft have been observed in a number of incidents, most notably by the much vilified George Adamski, whose photographs and film of this type of craft taken in 1952 and 1965 have been ridiculed and denounced as hoaxes


The idea of three "engines" on the underside is QUITE common in UFO folklore.

Such sightings by others hardly are even drops in the bucket to go towards proving Adamski's romps with the women of Venus, etc.


EDIT: I'd suggest making a separate thread on Adamski if you want to go there...besides, if you start it, you'll get the points for it and the replies...
This thread is about Meier, so sorry that my remark steered it off of that. Then again, my thread, so I'll steer it if I want to...hehe....





[edit on 19-11-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:30 PM
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"I do not feel the Meier camp is obligated at all, to send free copies of their books to people. If you were serious in your research, you would purchase them. As I said, there is already a lot of free information available from Meier, and you would be hard pressed to find other organizations who do that. I think you are demanding a bit too much mate."

Hi Indigo,

In the past I have purchased material from the Meier camp.Several contact notes and booklets, I read pretty much everything availible on the internet.If Meier's information is so important for mankind as some of his supporters claim to be, as in "the key to our future survival", then surely there wont be a pricetag to our salvation? Nevermind, lets all pay for the stuff.

TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:37 PM
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One of my favorite tidbits about Adamski (and an easily verifiable fact, i.e. the application with the Library of Congress)...


Prior to becoming associated with a hamburger stand on the road to Mt. Palomar, George had worked in a hamburger stand as a grill cook. With this scientific background he wrote, in his spare time, a document which he called An Imaginary Trip to the Moon, Venus and Mars. He voluntarily listed it with the Library of Congress for copyright purposes as a work of fiction.
That was in 1949.
His effort did not attract many customers but it did attract the attention of a lady writer who saw gold in them there space ships. She made a deal with George to rewrite his epic; she was to furnish the skilled writing and he was to furnish the photographs of the space ships.
This lady brought the finished manuscript to me for appraisal and she brought with it a clutch of the crudest UFO photographs I had seen in years. I declined to have anything to do with the mess and she left my office in a bit of a huff.
In its revised form it told a yarn of how George had ventured into the desert of southern California, where he met a "scout ship" from which stepped a gorgeous doll in golden coveralls. She spoke to him with a bell-like voice in a language which he did not understand, so they had to resort to telepathy, or something similar, to carry on their conversation. And then, as she prepared to leave him, she tapped out a message in the sand with her little boot. George realized that she wanted him to preserve this message (it was terribly important) and, having a pocket full of wet plaster of Paris (which he seemingly always carried with him on desert trips), George quickly made a plaster cast of the footprint with the message, which he eventually reproduced for the educational advancement of his readers, who were legion.


www.bermuda-triangle.org...


[edit on 19-11-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:51 PM
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Hi Gazrok,

Again little bit off-topic here.I consider Timothy Good as my favorite author and by any chance have you read his book 'Alien Base'? If you read more Timothy Good books you'll notice that he recognizes some of Adamski's claims but also questions other matters.In the end he acknowledges that something did indeed happen in the Adamski case.He has done much work on that.
As far as the report by 3 police officers go, I think it gives credence to the Adamski case.He was the first to go public with that type of ship (and crew) which is later on seen by dozens of people.For me it points to a real phenomena but from your words I can gather and what I basicly already knew, is that you have a different standard what constitutes proof.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 02:20 PM
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Yes, I've read all of Timothy's books that I'm aware of. Those I don't own, are on my X-mas wishlist, hehe...

I never got the impression he put much in the Adamski case, but I'm willing to take another look at certain books if you see something like that.

Have you ever seen Adamski's pics of the 3 bulb craft? While all of his images are copyrighted, you'll find it hard to find them on the web in any event. (odd as that is), so one's pretty much looking at a library trip, hehe... Anyhow, you'll notice that in most of the pics, there is something a bit off kilter with the symmetry in most of them (i.e. the bulbs don't look even, sometimes even "bent" a little, etc.).



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:08 PM
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Hi Gazrok,

One of Timothy Good's earliest books was 'Adamski, The Untold Story', written in collaberation
with a Swiss female investigator named Lou Zinsstag who unfortunately passed away.While
I haven't got the book, I understand from reviews that they questioned the Adamski case
but also don't deny something truthful was at the core of the case.I regard Timothy Good as
an excellent and objective author who lists both the pro's and con's of a case.
While you didn't get the impression Good put much effort in researching the Adamski case
I respectfully have to disagree, it's quite the oppesite.
There are plenty of Adamski photographes availible on certain sites who take the copyright
rather lightly, if you know what I mean.Yes I noticed that some pictures display a kind of
'bending', that's also plainly visible in the Silver Spring film which Adamski took along with
Madeleine Rodeffer in 1965.Some have argued that a high gravity source eminating from
the craft is responsible for the 'warped' sections of craft in photographs.
Here's a site with lots of Adamski pics as well as others.(Under 6, most are in B&W)
The Silver Spring film is also availible on that site along with Meier's films, oops copyrighted.

www.universe-people.com...

This is a topic on it's own, perhaps it's best to discuss it in another thread, yet I don't
know how much time I'll have the coming week.Give me a few days before I start the
topic.Thanks.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:26 PM
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Did you know Billy Meier regards Adamski as a liar, cheater and fraud? According to
him and his alien contacts Adamski faked his photographs with models and wires.
Not only did he do that, the eyewitnesses who openly supported Adamski's desert
encounter were under his 'suggestive powers', making them see things that weren't
there, according to the Meier case.Ironically, Meier who's under a lot of 'flak' as it is,
is one fine debunker himself.Did you know that?

TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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Never hurts to knock the competition...


Though Adamski's dead....SOMEONE is getting that money, hehe....

I'm unaware of that book by Good, I'll definitely have to pick it up.

It's interesting that Meier's and Adamski's photos have been so closely compared. My guess is that they used the same method for making the photos, though of course, that's my opinion. Like Adamski, Meier has his "favored" craft too.

Currently, I'm on a hunt for some pics of the 1937 canister vacuum cleaner lid, chicken breeder, and kerosene refridgerator vent that have all been identified at one time or another as the Adamski craft model, but as you can imagine, such a thing is difficult to find. Amazingly, in every skeptic mention I've seen for the vacuum cleaner lid, they've never mentioned the company! You'd think if they knew the year, they'd know the make and model...dammit!


One of the most damning smoking guns for the Adamski case though, is the fictional book BEFORE his claimed experience, and with roughly the same story. Perhaps he's as prophetic as Meier's contacts?


[edit on 19-11-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:56 PM
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Good luck with finding with the exact 'bottle cooler', 'chicken broader' or
any other household utensil.Adamski, back in those days, offered 2000$
for anyone who could show the exact same thing.There were no takers...

TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:00 PM
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I'm gone for less than 24 hours and have two pages of posts to read!

TerraX ~ Yes, my avatar (Meier's book "OM") literally speaks reams about my pro-Meier tendencies, doesn't it.
If you should ever have a gnawing proclivity
toward learning more German and reading the book of all books, I highly recommend it. Not in English yet, so they tell me, but soon enough.

I guess I'm a bit befuddled with the concept of any group giving away all (or a large portion) of their material for free. I would think it violates most of the fundamental laws of economics and would probably ensure the demise of any organization that does so unrestrainedly. Secondly, Meier and the group FIGU place hundreds, if not thousands of pages of material on their website for the bargain-basement low price of...FREE! Third, most of what they publish is sold at or near cost, especially considering the monumental translation effort involved in any of the English material done by a mere handful of people over there, voluntarily I might add, who are also involved in helping other nationalities (French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Japanese and so on) with their translations, even though it is entirely incumbant upon the respective countries to do their own translations.

If you think they should be giving it all away, if this is indeed the true, unequivocal TRUTH of the ages, there are two problems with that thinking: One, though there are immutable laws of the universe that we know to be true and pervasive (i.e. gravity, cause and effect, etc.), Truth on many levels, epecially involving human thinking and behavior and what is "appropriate," is a relatively subjective item. Just because (alleged) extraterrestrials might have gone through millenia of experiences and acquired a hefty database full of wisdom and are attempting to obliquely insert it into the realm of lower-evolved beings (i.e. us), it doesn't mean they're 100% right 100% of the time. And that goes for the Meier material. It just means it is A WAY of thinking -- a set of guidelines -- that anyone is free to follow on his/her own volition. Number two: Nobody, including Meier, should ever shove these guidelines down anyone's throat or spam your inbox with them. Aside from proselytizing, it's also known as spoon-feeding and breeds mindless, ignorant, reliant automatons who don't know how to work through and solve the challenges of daily life on their own. It's up to each person, when they're in a point in their life mentally, spiritually, whatever, to get up off of the armchair and go find it, test it, and integrate it into their lives should they choose so. That, my friend, is an empirically proven truth.

Gazrok and Indigo ~ I'd love to write back on your points/questions, but I'll do that next round. Btw, thanks for the thread.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 01:46 AM
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Hi Aurelius,

Relax, I wasn't really contesting that everything should be giving out for free yet if some pieces of information are that important then it's only logical to publish it freely.How many books did Meier and other researchers write? Many. How many contact notes are there? Hundreds. How many booklets and leavelets are there? Dozens. You see if I were to purchase everything availible on the Meier case 'in order to do proper research' as suggested many times before by Meier supporters, I'd need to go to a bank to get a loan.And I have bought Meier books and contact notes but somehow it's never enough according to some Meier supporters, that's why I say these days, "well, give the information to me for free then".Do you understand? It's my reply to some people who try to (cheaply) brush me off as being ignorant.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 03:58 AM
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Hi Aurelius,

I look forward to your "2nd round" Meanwhile, I have a question for you, which I hope you can answer:

I noted your avatar image, the om symbol, and I wanted to you ask you of it's origin? Is it the the Hindu symbol, a Pleiadians symbol, or both? If it's the Hindu symbol, why would Meier use it?

I researched on the Hindu symbol and found this:





It looks similar to yours, but yours is only different, in the sense that instead of the O like symbol, you have a symbol like pi.



[edit on 20-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 04:24 AM
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In the 1955, following in the wake of, you guessed it, the Adamski case an orginization was established who called themselves the Aetherius Society, headed by 'medium' George King.They also use a highly similar symbol.

www.aetherius.org...



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