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Billy Meier, Debunking, Defending, whichever....

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posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 01:59 PM
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Well be lucky to BE HERE in 700 years If all of it IS real, they need to address someone in a position of power, not a Swiss farmer cult leader.


I don't think humanity is going go extinct anytime soon. Yes, there is going to be a massive destructions where billions will perish, but the spirit of mankind will live on in those who survive and rebuild society.

Which powerful person do you have in mind? Most of the powerful people I know are corrupt. The pleadians claims Meier is the reicarnation of someone from their own system who accepted the responsibility of the mission on Earth. I must say, he has been able to rally the support of many professionals and establish himself. So, this one swiss farmer has had some effect.

The Pleadians also claim, their other contacts, were not trustworhy or mature enough to understand what they were imparting. At the end of the day, the social position of anyone in the present incarnation, is only temporary, it is their spiritual evolution that should determine whether they are capable of such a monumental mission.


Yes, they are. Youll see that the man I mentioned is a member of CAUS (Citizens Against UFO Secrecy), who wrote the paper on Horns site. Likewise, since it is claimed that the validation was done with secrecy agreements with the labs involved, there is no way for a third party to authenticate that these facilities were used as claimed. Isnt THAT convenient?


Post is not the only one who has analysed his photographs, and does being a member of a UFO organization, mean you are a UFO investigator?


Yes, I have read it, (written by the CAUS member). Youll also note that this mans expertise is in digital imaging, NOT photo film analysis. This is like trusting a vet to perform an operation on a human. Sure, some things overlap, but completely different animals here. While Im no scientist, I do have enough expertise in film developing, etc.


These disciplines are inter-related. They have to study optics, and photo-chemistry, in conjunction with digital imaging. Digital imaging is nothing more than digitized film, and the development process, nothing more than digitized development, the principles are still the same. The only difference between a digital camera and film, is one is a CCD chip, and the other film. I studied cinematography, and as well as learning the art of composition, framing and lighting, I also had to learn lens optics, colour temperatures, emulsion testing, digital filmmaking and the biology of the human eye. I can say from my own expert knowledge, post is very qualified to provide an expert opinion on this. You're analogy is flawed; the principles are different, because vets specialize in animal anatomy.


This likely wont be till early next year, as other things are occupying my weekends through the holiday season.


Well then we must reach another agreement. You will not discuss Meiers photographs, until you have been able to reproduce them succesfully. Until you don't, you don't have a valid argument against them.


I myself have many new age beliefs. However, my point was to show that Marcel, like the photo analyst, already has a disposition towards the subject, so he is not the best source to cite as the only scientist to authenticate the samples.


As innocent as you worded it, but that is very unethical. What does anyones beliefs have anything to do with their profession? We can likewise say, because skeptics have a prejudice against a subject, they are not a reliable source of information. Yet, you still cite them as "professionals" to debunk Meiers photographs. The inherent hypocrisy is highlighted when you do not use them to debunk your beliefs in Zetans, disclosure project and spiritualty.

This is like saying anyone who is spiritual or religious is not reliable or credible in a scientific profession. A lot of parapsychologists and UFO investigators, have beliefs in spirituality, should we say then, all the work they have done, has no value?

So Marcel believes in crystals, does that mean he should believe in Aliens? You beleive in aliens, does that mean you should believe in Meier?
Please, let's keep beliefs, what they eat, who had had a row with, what they sell, out of this. That is not the scientific method. Deconsturcting someone on a personal level is best left to those who lack empirical evidence and lack cognition.


And just what are we to do against it? Warning me that a Ill be hit by lightning sometime in the future isnt going to help me avoid it unless you say exactly when and where. This seemed to be no trouble for past events, so why now? (besides the reasons already given). If they truly wished to help, theyd say HOW we could stop it..


What I was insinuating, was that, waiting for the end as a means to proving a warning of the end, is moot. Instead, you prove it prior, so that you can arrive at a solution.

In this case, the only way to prove the veracity of Meirs prophecy, is to prove that his previous prophecies were indeed made prior to the events and this information was beyond his reach.

Let's review what we have discussed so far. As it stands, your original arguments stand nullified

You said: Photographic evidence is an easily reproducable hoax
I said: They have not been succesfully reproduced

As you have not produced any evidence in this regard, and the ones you have tried to use as evidence, stand debunked, the only proof you can now offer, is reproducing them successfully. Till then this argument ends here.

You said: Meiers prophecies are vague and wrong, using the examples of Reagan and Ayatollah Khomeini.
I said: His predictions are many times precise and specific, and debunked your examples, using the same source as you.

As it is has not been proven that Meier has made these predictions prior to the events, I am left with providing proof that they have. If I succeed, then you should accept this as proof that Meier has genuinely forecasted the events and this is very compelling evidence that he is in contact with the Pleadians. Do you accept this?




posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 02:41 PM
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Let's review what we have discussed so far. As it stands, your original arguments stand nullified


Only in your opinion



You said: Photographic evidence is an easily reproducable hoax
I said: They have not been succesfully reproduced

As you have not produced any evidence in this regard, and the ones you have tried to use as evidence, stand debunked, the only proof you can now offer, is reproducing them successfully. Till then this argument ends here.


How are the ones who reproduced this any more debunked than Billy's photos? We've got two different sources with varying opinions, and still NO analysis of the film negatives. Sorry but silicon chips and film emulsion are completely different animals when it comes to manipulating images. I'm surprised Billy or Horn hasn't sent these to Bruce Macabee. He's a pro-UFO FILM specialist...wonder what he'd say about them...???

EDIT: Seems like he did have something to say. He even went in for the Gulfbreeze case, but even he isn't swallowing Billy's story... Here's a slight debunking of the Meier film....

brumac.8k.com...

Incidentally, it is noted that Billy spliced together multiple 8mm films. This shows SOME knowledge of working with film, and starts to erode the argument that he has no knowledge of such...



You said: Meiers prophecies are vague and wrong, using the examples of Reagan and Ayatollah Khomeini.
I said: His predictions are many times precise and specific, and debunked your examples, using the same source as you.

As it is has not been proven that Meier has made these predictions prior to the events, I am left with providing proof that they have. If I succeed, then you should accept this as proof that Meier has genuinely forecasted the events and this is very compelling evidence that he is in contact with the Pleadians. Do you accept this?


No, at the VERY least, it would prove he is a gifted prophet. It STILL wouldn't prove the stated source of the prophecies. ALL prophets are right sometimes, wrong others. His sites claim he is 100% accurate. If I even show he was a fraction of 1% off, then the claim is a lie. I believe I did that successfully. As for attacking my bias, I'm sure that any third party here would agree that we are both biased in our approaches here
.

I think we've squabbled pretty much to an empasse...as far as changing our positions on the subject of Billy. I'd love to hear others' input on this as well. This thread isn't exclusive to us you know!




[edit on 2-11-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 04:48 PM
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How are the ones who reproduced this any more debunked than Billy's photos?


Well considering that they do not succesfully reproduce his images, nor have been tested, in fact outrightly refused to be tested. To add, the retraction of Randi's claim Meier is a hoax. It stands that they are debunked.


Sorry but silicon chips and film emulsion are completely different animals when it comes to manipulating images.


We are not talking about the process of manipulating images here. We are talking about the principles of photography, digital or otherwise, which are the same, regardless of the medium. A film/CCD is exposed to light, and it makes a print of it.


I'm surprised Billy or Horn hasn't sent these to Bruce Macabee. He's a pro-UFO FILM specialist...wonder what he'd say about them...???

EDIT: Seems like he did have something to say. He even went in for the Gulfbreeze case, but even he isn't swallowing Billy's story... Here's a slight debunking of the Meier film....

brumac.8k.com...


You call this "debunking" and the author call it a hypothesis. Proving the UFO moved in a pendular motion, does not disprove it, it just says it moved in a pendular motion. As, you, nor me, have no knowledge of UFO navigation, we cannot say what is normal for a UFO, or whether the pendular motion was intentional.



No, at the VERY least, it would prove he is a gifted prophet. It STILL wouldn't prove the stated source of the prophecies. ALL prophets are right sometimes, wrong others.


If you need everything proven to you, why do you even believe UFO's are real? If he has indeed forecasted everything, which proves he has extraordinary psychic abilities, why does he even need to fabricate an alien species>


His sites claim he is 100% accurate. If I even show he was a fraction of 1% off, then the claim is a lie.


That's called nitpicking, and it is generally done by those who cannot find bigger things. Anyone of Meiers predictions, because they are so precise and detailed, if proven to be genuine, would prove his case.


I believe I did that successfully.


Your original points about his prophecies are debunked. Do you admit this?


As for attacking my bias, I'm sure that any third party here would agree that we are both biased in our approaches here
.


It depends if the third party is being objective. I don't think I am exhibiting the same bias as you. Nor, am I misrepresenting facts, or being hypocritical, nitpicking or eluding points. Nor do I have any emotional investments. I am actually positively responding to your points. I also acknowledged in the beginning that I was leaning towards skepticism after your initial post. This shows that my opinion on Meier is based on the available evidence, and will change, with the evidence.

Whereas, you as you clearly stated, your disapproval for Meier, is because you do not want him to corrupt the truth about UFO's. So if there is anyone who has a bias and an investment in this, it's you. Which is iilustrated by your double standards, and your nitpicking e.g. 28 moons instead of 29 moons, is as wrong to you, as anything else. Also, your mindset, that even if his predictions are proven, you still won't change your opinion on him being a hoax. This is closemindedness.

It almost sounds like to me you are trying very hard to keep a good rep with the skeptics, by dismissing certain parts of the UFO phenomena. Sometimes your own skepticism can be as misguided as those who maintain the non-existence of aliens or psychic ability.

I am trying to be as objective as I can on Meier. I still maintain he is arrogant, and whether is telling the truth or not, does not personally affect me.. I have no investments in him. All I am interested in, is the truth, and if that truth is a hoax, then it is, and If I find out it is in my research of him, that he is, then even if you have not proven your case, I will say it anyway.

Note: The above sounds a bit aggressive, but I assure you it is not, it is just that the truth sometimes can be hard, I still have full intents of fruitful, civil and friendly discussion.


I think we've squabbled pretty much to an empasse...as far as changing our positions on the subject of Billy. I'd love to hear others' input on this as well. This thread isn't exclusive to us you know!


Yeah, I agree. Are there any pro-Meiers out there?


[edit on 2-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 3 2004 @ 07:24 AM
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Well considering that they do not succesfully reproduce his images, nor have been tested, in fact outrightly refused to be tested. To add, the retraction of Randi's claim Meier is a hoax. It stands that they are debunked.


Just as Meier and Horn have refused to allow testing of the negatives. I still believe they did reproduce his images just fine.


You call this "debunking" and the author call it a hypothesis. Proving the UFO moved in a pendular motion, does not disprove it, it just says it moved in a pendular motion. As, you, nor me, have no knowledge of UFO navigation, we cannot say what is normal for a UFO, or whether the pendular motion was intentional.


No, I called it "partial debunking". The fact is, IF a model was suspended from a fixed point, it would behave in EXACTLY the same way as in the video. This should, at the very LEAST call the video into question, shy of completely debunking it.



If you need everything proven to you, why do you even believe UFO's are real? If he has indeed forecasted everything, which proves he has extraordinary psychic abilities, why does he even need to fabricate an alien species


Ask Billy.
Nostrodamus claims his divinations were from God...does that somehow prove the existance of God? No...same here with Billy. I have seen that UFOs are for real with my own eyes. I don't need proof, but I do demand a little more evidence when someone claims to be able to see a UFO seemingly at will...


That's called nitpicking, and it is generally done by those who cannot find bigger things. Anyone of Meiers predictions, because they are so precise and detailed, if proven to be genuine, would prove his case.


Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.


Your original points about his prophecies are debunked. Do you admit this?


Nope. We still haven't changed the fact that those predictions made in the PAST have exact times, dates, etc., whereas those for the future have NONE of this level of precision. We still haven't validated whether or not the claims were made prior to the events. I'm still wondering why the highest mountain would be important enough to merit a forecast, but the election results of last night, arguably the most important global election of the decade, wouldn't merit such a forecast.

As for me claiming you have some bias here too...

You are willing to accept photo analysis of multi-generation prints, without negatives, and done by a UFO group member who is not a photo analyst but a digital effects specialist.

You are willing to accept a video which has been shown by a pro-UFO physicist, to coincide with the movement of a model swinging from a fixed point.

You are willing to accept that a scientist believes he can show a sample as being an alien alloy, yet said scientist does not attempt to validate this claim with anyone else in the scientific community.

You are willing to accept that he was somehow able to pinpoint things to the exact minute with past events...but can't even narrow down a month or year for future events.

I would say the above certainly implies some logic dismissal and bias towards Billy here....



Yeah, I agree. Are there any pro-Meiers out there?


I'd love to hear from them. Judging from past threads on ATS regarding Meiers, I believe that crowd will be just the sound of some crickets, hehe....

I simply still have many questions about the Meier case, regardless of stance. Why no pics of the ship interior? Why no pics of the aliens coming out of the ship? Why no other contactees than Billy? Where are the recent photos of the ships? Why no decent video footage, if they are so easy for him to photograph clearly? Etc. etc.

I just am not buying it....



posted on Nov, 3 2004 @ 09:44 AM
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I still believe they did reproduce his images just fine.



Even a broken clock is correct twice a day



Nope. We still haven't changed the fact that those predictions made in the PAST have exact times, dates, etc., whereas those for the future have NONE of this level of precision. We still haven't validated whether or not the claims were made prior to the events/


It does not seem like you are going to change any of your viewpoints, regardless of which evidence is produced, or even if it obvious. As there seems to be no prospects for intellectual growth in this discussion, I think we should call it an end for now. However, I am still going to find out if his predictions are genuinely made in advance of the events, not for your sake, as even that is not evidence for you, so I think I'm just going to plain give up on you, but mine and others. Hopefully, you can still attempt reproducing his UFO's, however I have a feeling, even a frisbee in flight, will be considered "fine" by you



You are willing to accept photo analysis of multi-generation prints, without negatives, and done by a UFO group member who is not a photo analyst but a digital effects specialist.


I am willing to accept the above, as well other testimonies from professionals, and the fact that they remain irreproducable to date.


You are willing to accept a video which has been shown by a pro-UFO physicist, to coincide with the movement of a model swinging from a fixed point.


I am willing to accept that the UFO moved in a pendular motion, note, it did not move in one swing, it also accelerated initially.


You are willing to accept that a scientist believes he can show a sample as being an alien alloy, yet said scientist does not attempt to validate this claim with anyone else in the scientific community.


How do you know he has not validated his claims with other scientists?


You are willing to accept that he was somehow able to pinpoint things to the exact minute with past events...but can't even narrow down a month or year for future events.


I am willing to accept that, as that has already been explained. When, and if the proof is produced that the prior predictions are genuine, then that should put this argument to rest.


I would say the above certainly implies some logic dismissal and bias towards Billy here....


The above only implies, that I am weighing the weight of the evidence for Meier against the weight of you evidence against Meier. I am being logical when I say yours is lighter, in fact most of yours is just speculation/hot air - "why didn't he do this and that"


I simply still have many questions about the Meier case, regardless of stance. Why no pics of the ship interior? Why no pics of the aliens coming out of the ship? Why no other contactees than Billy? Where are the recent photos of the ships? Why no decent video footage, if they are so easy for him to photograph clearly? Etc. etc.

I just am not buying it....


Even more speculations. You ask questions, and then answer yourself, so you don't need any other answers. Your mind is pretty much made up on Meier, and it parallels the kind of pseudoskepticism of many would-be debunkers. Yet, what makes it funny, you would not apply this psuedoskepticism to things you consider to be legitimate evidence.

1. Betty Hill star map: You say Billy Meier, if he has prediced the events in advance, is still a hoax, because it has not been proven that his source is the Pleaidians. Can't we say te same, but Betty Hill's star map is a hoax, because it's still not been proven that her source is the greys.

I know of at least 10-20 Disclosure project proponents who have been debunked by skeptics, again using the same character assassination arguments you are using to debunk Meiers experts. Yet, you are not buying it?

You abound with double standards, and you're not being intellectually honest. We will talk later with there is something solid to add to this case, otherwise I'm sure you can agree, this is deterioating.

[edit on 3-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 3 2004 @ 12:34 PM
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Fair enough... You refute my arguments and scientists against Billy. I refute yours and the scientists for Billy. In the end, it's up to the individual to decide. To date, every claimant, claiming to see and photograph numerous of UFOs has been shown, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be a hoaxer...George Adamski, Ed Waters, etc. Despite Horn's claim, I (and many others), including many UFO organizations, likewise believe there is more than a shadow of doubt concerning Mr. Meier.

You should seriously consider getting in on some of Horn and Meier's action, as I applaud your bebating skills, but in the end, vague future predictions, photos claimed to be authenticated without negatives, video of a disc blown by a fan while dangling on a string, defenses like "the Swiss MIBs switched my photos", and the claims of a healing crystal hawking scientist aren't going to convince many.

I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word here, so I'll let you have it, but then not reply unless others do, as I agree we've gone as far as we can go at this point in time (which like most of my started threads will likely die in obscurity, hehe.... Upon testing my photo theories, I'll be making a new post, and U2U you at that time. Thanks for the discussion!



posted on Nov, 3 2004 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
likewise believe there is more than a shadow of doubt concerning Mr. Meier.


There certainly is a shadow of doubt for me, which is finding actual proof that Meiers predictions are genuine. Once, and if, I find that, then I am going to be completely convinced about him.


You should seriously consider getting in on some of Horn and Meier's action, as I applaud your debating skills


Thanks
I think Horn is doing a very good job, however. Plus, I am not going to support Meiers cause, until I am convinced myself he is genuine.

[qupte]but in the end, vague future predictions, photos claimed to be authenticated without negatives, video of a disc blown by a fan while dangling on a string, defenses like "the Swiss MIBs switched my photos", and the claims of a healing crystal hawking scientist aren't going to convince many.

Terrorist attack on WTC was a future prediction, that was not vague was it?
If you read the full transcript of Meiers 215th contact, you will see there are many predictions that are not vague. All they lack are exact dates and times. As Quetzal said, this was not a prediction, this was just a possible future we are headed for.

Why does it surprise you that the government can sabotage his efforts to discredit him? The government is doing it all the time. Anyway, I got to admit, I have not properly researched his Asket and Nara and time travel pictures. I will do so later.


video of a disc blown by a fan while dangling on a string


Is this a fact, or a theory you are a borrowing from a would-be debunker?


I'll be making a new post, and U2U you at that time. Thanks for the discussion!


I look forward to it, once again good luck with it. Yes, it was a good discussion and compared to many with opposing camps, civil and fruitful. By not pursuing it beyond it's saturation, we have maintained that. We both have further work to do in our research



posted on Nov, 3 2004 @ 07:23 PM
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Hi Indigo Child,

Sorry for the late response but I had some trouble getting on this forum.In my previous post I basicly
said that I'm not total disbeliever of Meier's claims but I certainly doubt some of his claims and I'm highly suspicious of yet other claims.While some of his predictions were accurate, not all were.Don't take my word for it, just look for yourself in the contact notes.For example, in the 90's the subject of
smoking was considered very unhealthy in contact note 235 if I'm not mistaken, following an article from a magazine the after effects of smoking are discussed and naturally corrected for accuracy.The thing is in the 70's in one of the early contact notes smoking was discussed between Billy and Semjase and no negative effects were listed, there was even mention of a positive effect! Billy Meier was a smoker for 33 years but only in the 90's the ill-effects were discussed.Doesn't seem prophetic in any regard.

But ok, he had some things correctly predicted.Does that automatically mean everything in the Billy Meier case is true? In my book, no.Point A doesn't necessarily proof point F.Be careful not to take everything for granted, in fact try to remain objective.If you can do that you'll see that the Meier case is far from perfect yet also intriguing.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 12:43 PM
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This is just a test im having real posting problems here www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 9-11-2004 by bluemooone]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:25 PM
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The test in the old testament was this: that a prophet had to be right 100% of the time. Or he was stoned. That was Gods test (and also why he had such a hard time convincing any one to be a prophet) and is the only true prophesy. Again , 100% of the time . Billy fails this test , and so do the palaidains. That being said , I also beleive that they , the palaidains , are not from here and so operate under different conditions. They are here of that I have no doubt . www.abovetopsecret.com... billys drawings of the four palaidens are exactly the same `people` whom I have seen . Mindblowing I know !



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 03:34 AM
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Hi Bluemooone,

Me personally, I'm not a huge Billy Meier fan although I can acknowledge
that unusual things are going on.Besides his photographs which are
heavily debated there are also eyewitness testimonies supporting some
of his claims.
His role as a prophet seems arguable at best.Although it's hard to get
Meier supporters admit that he made mistakes, they were certainly
there.Not to mention the excuses the Meier case comes up with when
things go hay-wire.

Now, supposedly these Plejarens who contacted Meier, only deal with him.
Various reasons are given for this, but supposedly Meier's spirit has
progressed far enough, further then most of us, which enables him to
make contact.This is somewhat peculiar since besides Meier, many people
have claimed to have met extraterrestrials.Billy Meier and his Plejaren
contacts regard most of the other cases as false and the people as frauds.
Bet you didn't know that.This is also the stuff you don't hear from Meier
supporters or spokesmen.

Regarding your contact with people who looked similar to Billy Meier's
Plejarens, I don't know of course if it was them.For sure, Billy Meier
wont acknowledge your story.
I've read stories about inner earth occupants with saucer technology
who would also fit the description.These are the more outlandish stories.
Supposedly these inner earth beings also had beards and long hair, rather
similar to Meier's ET's.

Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 12:48 PM
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UPDATE:

As of yet I cannot find any evidence that Meier has made these predictions, in fact someone from the Meier camp, told me, that there are no such copyrighted publications. Rather, the Pleiadians did not want to reveal the events before they happened, so they were sealed in an envelope in front of four witnesses, including Wendele Stevens, to be opened when the predictions passes. That makes a lot of a sense, but unfortunately I cannot accept the predictions as evidence in that case.

Meanwhile, this person does claim there is copyrighted information on his prescient scientific information.

It turns out, Meier, in his 251st contact, was told by the Pleiadians, that they deliberately introduced pendular motions, swaying, and bobbing in their movements, because they wanted to deliberately introduce controversial elements so that it cannot be fully proven they are genuine.
That makes me very dubious indeed.

There certainly is a shadow of doubt around Meiers case.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 12:57 PM
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I am glad you are keeping an open mind on this...


I admit, I am not. For me there is far too much "funny business" going on, and the above additions don't help matters. I'm still planning on doing the pics btw...kind of a new year's resolution, hehe....

Indeed, I'd like nothing more than to believe Billy's story, but sadly, there is too much swaying me otherwise.

Kudos for the legwork on looking for the published prophecies, etc.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 01:55 AM
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Billy Meier's contact note 251 is a fine example of his prophecies.
www.figu.org...

Take special note to this paragraph;

Billy: Now then, let's get back to my 23 pages. Is everything correct?

Ptaah: I did not notice any mistakes, other than typing errors. One
thing that was not quite correct, though, was the chronological order
of events; but I assume you did this for a purpose so no specific years
and other calculations of time could be gleaned from the data. I, for one,
find this very sensible. In some places you repeated yourself, for example,
when you advanced the time of an event and then repeated it at the
proper place.

Basicly the 23 pages of prophecies are chronologicly shuffled and no
specific years are given.Why? The best reason I can come up with is
that it would hide mistakes.By keeping it vague, incoherent and
non-structured, you stand the best chances of being succesful, depending
of course on your interpretation of the text.

Again, this is the stuff I don't see coming from the Meier supporters
or spokesmen who focus only on what was supposedly correct.I don't
even bother anymore to research the 251st contact note for accuracy.
It's a mumbo-jumbo list the size of a toilet role.Perhaps next time,
Billy Meier and his highly evolved Plejarens can make it a bit more
specific for us dumb Earth people.They wouldn't want us to be tricked,
right?


Regards,
TerraX



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by TerraX
Billy Meier's contact note 251 is a fine example of his prophecies.

Hi TerraX ~
I'm Aurelius. I suppose you can consider me a "Meier-supporter." I spent ~13 years studying the case, visiting Meier and his group, etc., so I might have some substance to throw in the mix. Good to see some discussion on my favorite topic.


251, fine example? mmm... not really. Meier published a 400+ page book on prophecies that's very specific. But perhaps you haven't read it yet cuz it's in German, or do I err? Have you read the Henoch prophecies written in 1987? Talking about the global war on terror that the U.S. would spearhead, the lands the U.S. would invade (and puppetize) until they figured out what was really going on, etc., etc. I don't think we can get any more specific than that. What do you think?


Basicly the 23 pages of prophecies are chronologicly shuffled and no
specific years are given.Why? The best reason I can come up with is
that it would hide mistakes.By keeping it vague, incoherent and
non-structured, you stand the best chances of being succesful, depending
of course on your interpretation of the text.

Again, this is the stuff I don't see coming from the Meier supporters
or spokesmen who focus only on what was supposedly correct.I don't
even bother anymore to research the 251st contact note for accuracy.
It's a mumbo-jumbo list the size of a toilet role.Perhaps next time,
Billy Meier and his highly evolved Plejarens can make it a bit more
specific for us dumb Earth people.They wouldn't want us to be tricked,
right?


In Meier's quote that you posted, it basically told the reason why the events were shuffled. I think it makes sense not to put exact dates, sequences, etc. out to the public. Most people wouldn't be able to handle the knowledge of it. The reason the events themselves might be considered vague is because human nature is such that we would try to avoid the event(s), mitigate them, otherwise interfere with them or cringe below a table somewhere (fearfully starving ourselves to death in the process), waiting for the impending disasters.

I'd be curious to talk to you about what parts you feel the supporters are not addressing or avoiding.

Regards,
Aurelius



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 01:47 AM
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Hi Aurelius,

Yep, I gathered from other posts you made that you are a 'Meier supporter', the symbol on the picture also gives it away, same as on the FIGU discussion board.I'm going to be honest, I'm more an 'Adamski-Menger supporter', why that is I keep private for now but perhaps that'll start you think especially in relation with the Meier case, but we'll get into that later since I've seen you don't quit easily.


I haven't read the Henoch Prophecies, not because it's in German which I can read to a certain extent, it's more about being reluctant to do the effort.It's not being lazy, quite the contrary, I think I've done enough and it's the Meier camp responsibility to distribute the information freely (meaning no cost and I'm not going to pay for it) and openly and in English.
On a sidenote here, the Henoch Prophecies, is that about Russia invading Europe in WW3 where not only countries get invaded one by one but where also civic upheaval and chaos breaks out in France and England? Highly unrealistic compared to today's situation.Makes me think that the prophecy was written in a cold war mindset and in the end incorrect, but I've seen some people swing it into a 'lets wait and see' because, you guessed it, no date is given.

So you've studied the Meier case for 13 years.Me personally I (in)frequently looked into the Meier case the last 5 years but before that I purchased Randolph Winters book 'The Pleiadian Mission' which compared to the raw material is a somewhat mild version, not to mention the business dispute that followed which wasn't an isolated incident but you're probably aware of all the 'mishaps' that went on over the years.I recall an article in a weekly magazine from the late 70's where Semjase was depicted as a humanlooking woman but she had black 'Grey-like' slanted eyes, quite weird and no Meier supporter seems to recall that image.Nowdays Semjase looks like a 'babe'.
I've read thousands of pages concerning the Meier case and I've seen enough to formulate an opinion.
I'm not stating he's a fraud but he's also not correct on a number of things and some prophecies were simply not correct, the problem is of course that by acknowledging mistakes his 'stature' would dramaticly decrease.For me, Billy Meier is just another soul like the rest of us although I get the impression that he and others want to lift him up to overexaggerated proportions.

TerraX



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:53 AM
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251, fine example? mmm... not really. Meier published a 400+ page book on prophecies that's very specific. But perhaps you haven't read it yet cuz it's in German, or do I err? Have you read the Henoch prophecies written in 1987? Talking about the global war on terror that the U.S. would spearhead, the lands the U.S. would invade (and puppetize) until they figured out what was really going on, etc., etc. I don't think we can get any more specific than that. What do you think?


Welcome, fellow "Meier supporter" It's a pleasure to have you in this thread, in fact we ned someone like yourself in this thread.

If you have this 400 page book, in german, can you produce the following information, where applicable:

1. Copyright and publishing information
2. A scan of the pages of some of the predictions, the table of contents, and the front page

If you can clear this up, we will have evidence to support Meiers's predictions.

Many Thanks.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 04:23 AM
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I haven't read the Henoch Prophecies, not because it's in German which I can read to a certain extent, it's more about being reluctant to do the effort.It's not being lazy, quite the contrary, I think I've done enough and it's the Meier camp responsibility to distribute the information freely (meaning no cost and I'm not going to pay for it) and openly and in English.


I disagree that the information should be given away for free. There is already a lot of information distributed by the Meier camp for free, and you would be hard pressed to find other organizations that do that. At the end of the day, the process of publishing books costs money, and that cost must be recovered by some means. This really should not be a complaint - in the system we live in, nothing is free.


On a sidenote here, the Henoch Prophecies, is that about Russia invading Europe in WW3 where not only countries get invaded one by one but where also civic upheaval and chaos breaks out in France and England? Highly unrealistic compared to today's situation.Makes me think that the prophecy was written in a cold war mindset and in the end incorrect, but I've seen some people swing it into a 'lets wait and see' because, you guessed it, no date is given.


I absolutely disagree that this scenorio is unrealistic. You are obviously not with the times or understand international politics. Russia has long been Europe and America's rival, and has also fought a "cold war" with the US. and now with the EU declaring itself as one state, and it's alignment to US, and this whole superstate neigbourig Russia, this becomes a huge strategic and security concern for Russia.

In fact Russia is deeply concerned with the development of the western empire, and is trying it's level best to form it's own axis with China and India, but it's efforts are going invain. In other words, Russia is desperate now, and if it cannot lobby the support of China and India, it will have to go it alone, and this would mean an invasion of EU, when push comes to shove.

As for Chaos breaking out in France and England. If the worst theories are true about the NWO, then all of Europe will become a police state, and the ensuring chaos this will bring, will most likely erupt into civil wars. We can already see omens of civil war in US right now, and be assured, that the US is not independent from the European empire, it is an integral part of it. The policies that are enacted in US, soon become European policy too, a fine example is the patriot act.

As being British myself, I know my people are very proud of their country, and I would be surprised if they tolerate losing their sovereignity, which is soon going to happen with the EU merger. We were opposed to the EU single currency, which means, we will definitely be opposed to becoming one state, and if it's forced upon us, then as Meier said, there will be bloody revolutions.

Remember in a World Wide War, especially in a nuclear world war, the entire world becomes destablized and dangerous, and then past conflicts or unresolved border disputes come to the fore. All of the major powers take to sides, and if you know even an iota of international politics, you will know Russia will most definitely not side with the west.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:27 AM
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I'm more an 'Adamski-Menger supporter',


As in George Adamski? I wouldn't go saying that too loudly here, hehe... Compared to Adamski, Billy's case is scientific fact!


I would be interested in that publishing info too, especially if you can get a digital pic of the copyright info (or even just type it in here) so we can research it. Alas, I think we'll find it self-published or some other such unsupportable means, but still, worth a shot here.

A US war on terror was hardly an unforseeable eventuality in '87. In fact, in '85 I even had a comic about such a thing (I came up with an elite group dedicated to it and gear, etc.) but I'm hardly a prophet, hehe... Arafat, Kaddafi, etc. were all fresh in our minds at the time, and Libya, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, etc. were all synonymous with terrorism. The biggest red flag to me remains the precise details of the predictions of events that have already occurred, compared to the vagueness of those events that have yet to occur. If truly prophecies before the events, then either:
a) they would have been just as vague as the latter ones
or
b) the latter prophecies would be just as detailed.
Either way, neither is the case here.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:47 AM
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Hi Indigo Child

"I disagree that the information should be given away for free. There is already a lot of information distributed by the Meier camp for free, and you would be hard pressed to find other organizations that do that. At the end of the day, the process of publishing books costs money, and that cost must be recovered by some means. This really should not be a complaint - in the system we live in, nothing is free."

I have no doubt printing and publishing costs money and if they want money for that ok.They already have an online shop for all Meier related material and in fact it's quite a lot.What I was saying is that I'm not prepared to pay for every book or leavelet from the Meier case in order to study it.So if any Meier supporters wants to send me information, then that's just fine.Besides, you don't have to act like Meier and FIGU don't have any money.They always had enough to pay for a lawyer.Members of FIGU also have to contribute an ammount of their salery along with mandatory work.Did you know that?

"I absolutely disagree that this scenorio is unrealistic. You are obviously not with the times or understand international politics. Russia has long been Europe and America's rival, and has also fought a "cold war" with the US. and now with the EU declaring itself as one state, and it's alignment to US, and this whole superstate neigbourig Russia, this becomes a huge strategic and security concern for Russia."

You obviously live on an island suffering from a mild case of 'Europhobia', I understand international politics just fine.Europe is not going to attack Russia and Russia is not going to attack Europe.Under the present thread of muslim extremism I would say both Russia and Europe have similar problems and are united in combatting them.I wouldn't be surprised if Russia would join the EU within a decade or two but for that to happen the Russian conservatives need to leave the playing field.Besides if Russia is to invade Europe as Meier prophecized then first they need to rebuild their army, and there are no signs on that.

Regards,
TerraX



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