Native American Confronts Protesters on Illegal Immigration

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion

Originally posted by undo
we are all SCREWED.

Yes... and it's not the illegals fault but those who made it profitable to come and stay.

It wasn't the native american's fault the Europeans came (either through invitation or failure to fight)... it was the profitability of it.

If there is profit to be made from it illegal or not... unconstrained immigration will happen by people who fundamentally are doing the same thing you would if the US became a terrible place to try to get work. You'll start looking elsewhere, and if nowhere will take you... whatchagonnado?

ask the people living on the new american reservation, et.al, tent cities.

Originally posted by undo
ask the people living on the new american reservation, et.al, tent cities.

That's because right now it's the only option they understand. Those who knew how to leave already left and you don't hear from them. Just like the bulk of the members of the family are still back home in Mexico in whatever their home condition is when someone comes over here to work.

Again... citizens in tent cities dependent on government or begging and still "buying" stuff from the corporations paying illegals less than they would have to pay them? PROFIT!

We can't keep evading the profit motive. It always has been, and always will be, the prime path to follow. Not the outer edges of all the nickel and dime profit... but where all those nickles and dimes accumulate into millions and billions.

If you were born here you are a native American too.
Non-indian people don't hold a monopoly on stupidity.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
If you were born here you are a native American too.
Non-indian people don't hold a monopoly on stupidity.

I was born on a planet, not in a nation.

Nations are fictional entities we've all agreed to pretend exist until we decide they don't.

Originally posted by ker2010
No one is blaming it all on that, its a very small piece of the pie. The corrupt government is the big problem and them not enforcing laws.

If we had a government truly for the people and not for big business and special interest groups all would fall into line.

Well I agree with you there.

But, since you've acknowledge that illegal immigration is a very small piece of the pie - Why exactly is it such a huge issue, WAY bigger than its actual role in the problems our society is facing?

In my opinion, it is being consciously hyped-up so that you and I ignore the REAL causes of the dilemma facing Americans.

reply to post by BrandonD


because it is providing a vehicle for racism, not for whites against hispanics (aren't they all europeans???) but for native american indians against white settlers, as if were living 200 years ago. this, i do believe, is heading in the same direction as south africa but for a totally different reason. originally, the efforts in south africa were to end apartheid against blacks. many banded together to solve the problem there. so what do they do? install apartheid again, but this time against indigenous whites. you don't even have to be an indigenous south african black, to take part in the genocide over there. it's a government sponspored hitlerian genocide of white people.

i think this is direction its heading in.

reply to post by undo

And you are demonstrating *exactly* how you are being manipulated into continuing the racism "fear". "They will all come and subjugate me!"

Well yes... because your leaders and corporate honchos paid them to. Not because of their race but because of their (lack of) citizenship and easy access location. And the same people who brought them here would be the ones who pass the laws that would create the reality you fear.

Not because of race but because it's profitable. If the people from Mexico were Asian and the exact same economy it would be "them" we were talking about. If it was white and the same economic climate we'd still be dealing with it except it would be even harder to tell who "they" are.

It's about being more profitable to get Americans on government dole and handouts to pay for the very things that someone else is getting paid less than they would. They get the purchase and they produced it for less while also getting purchases from the cheaper labor too.

They get two customers for the price of half an employee.

Originally posted by daryllyn
Just look at what the original illegal immigrants did to the natives.

Europeans who settled in America weren't 'illegal immigrants'.
There were no laws restricting them from coming in.

European settlers were just that ... settlers.
Europeans took over America in an INVASION OF CIVILIANS.
They broke no laws in doing so.
Unlike the illegals who come into America today who break laws coming here.
They are an invasion of civilians .. and drug gangs ...
And they will, in the end, become the new MAJORITY in this country.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
They broke no laws in doing so.

But they did break treaties. Repeatedly.

reply to post by cornucopia


Not sure I see why these protesters would be hypocrites.

The vast majority of the people in this country today are of families who immigrated through legal means well after the country was founded, which was well after it was invaded by "the white man" which was well after the "natives" settled on it.

Who's to say they too didn't simply start squatting on someone else's land?



At this point, immigration is an economic and infrastructural problem, bringing up the past to shame a bunch of protesters is counter to the good of all regardless of what is eventually decided as its an obvious attempt to shut down a whole side of the debate... good ol' white guilt.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


i am not saying that hispanics from mexico are the problem. i'm saying the gov is stirring up racial hatred against indigenous whites, from some indigenous native american indians, with the hope they (the gov) can then come in, and take everything we own on the premise that we are white, which they call karma. they encouraged us to be color blind, and when that finally happened, turned it around and now are calling out the law of karma to punish us for believing them. it's a no win scenario. i hate no win scenarios.

reply to post by eNumbra

Because like usual we're being manipulated to fight each other on the bottom as the people actually making it happen walk away with more money and political control.

Yay.

reply to post by undo

Now just stop.

The complaint was directed to Americans and he never once said "whites".

YOU are helping perpetuate the white guilt by taking every single thing said against "America" as against "Whites" and focusing constantly on THAT rather than the mostly WHITE people who are exploiting you and me by perpetuating this. Not only "whites" invaded. Not only "whites" are here. Not only "whites" are fighting against immigration while not understanding the real root of the problem making them poorer. Not only "whites" were in that protest. But the "whites" in the US are being exploited primarily by other "whites".

That's the whole point... it's not white/not-white... but "Stand to Make a Profit" and "Stand to be Screwed".

Those are the camps we need to be in and focus our energy on "fearing" and "changing"... not wasting our time trying to stop people from doing what most of the people protesting would do if it was them.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


white guy is standing there with a sign about no illegal immigration. the native american in the video says, "we should've put that sign up when you sun of a beetches came, yeah that's right." now, i agree with him that what happened 200 years ago, was a travestry. BUT HOW MANY TIMES DOES THIS HAVE TO BE SAID BEFORE THE LOGIC OF IT SINKS IN: THIS IS NOT 200 YEARS AGO!

yes this is about trying to get the native american indigenous population of this country, specifically pissed off at the "white settlers" of 200 years ago,which if anybody cared to check on, would realize, those people have been dead for 200 years. that's many generations ago. so why's he yelling it at a person in 2013?

Originally posted by undo
yes this is about trying to get the native american indigenous population of this country, specifically pissed off at the "white settlers" of 200 years ago,which if anybody cared to check on, would realize, those people have been dead for 200 years. that's many generations ago. so why's he yelling it at a person in 2013?

Here is another way to put it: Why aren't we giving the generations 200 years from now the same chance we have due to the opportunity our ancestors had 200 years ago?

Why are we immune now? Oh... because we have bigger guns. That is the ONLY reason. And yet we're still losing it. Why? Because those with the guns *want* us to lose it.

No it's not 200 years ago... which is why we should be smarter this time and stop spending ANY time protesting immigration itself and protesting corporations who pay immigrants. If we stop paying them they will stop coming without any laws even needing to exist or borders really needing protection from anything but traffickers who are going to operate regardless.

But no... he has to talk to people in 2013 in very direct and blunt ways to get them to STOP and really ask the motivations behind their protesting. Are they really protesting that people are coming over? Or are they protesting because they are losing their jobs.

It's not because people are coming over, they wouldn't CARE if they still had their jobs. It's because companies are hiring the cheap labor instead of the citizens. Yet... the citizens still shop at the companies while protesting people trying to make a better living than they can at home. Due to Americans giving it to them.

Protests are not places that you can be heard by going up and having a civic discourse. It's not like the protesters were standing there going "Well old chap... what a mighty fine discussion we're having on this lawn about the pros and cons of immigration and who is really to blame?"

No... it's blunt simple slogans and signs which just contribute to the polarizing attitudes. So sometimes people need to have some of their own fire tossed in their faces to get them to pause and ask "Wait... what is it I'm actually trying to accomplish and who exactly am I angry at?"

He showed that "well it's happening to you now just as it happened to us". And it's up to us to either take what he says to true heart and CHANGE this pattern, or just keep going like we have for thousands of years and never dealing with the real people and being just as futile in our efforts to combat it... as they are now. Because the same reason it happened to them it is happening to "us". If there wasn't obscene amounts of money to be made here, the immigration process would have been entirely different 200 years ago.

Same thing is true now.

This guy will have made more people stop and contemplate what is really going on with immigration and who is behind it than almost every debate that was ever had here on ATS about it.

If Apartheid happens here, it will be because "Stand to make a Profit" (mostly whites in the US) will have done it to you and me knowingly and having planned it for longer than we were aware it was ever a problem.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion

"well it's happening to you now just as it happened to us"

it's happening to me now just as it happened to him, is the more appropriate way to frame it. and since i wasn't there, and neither was he, it's a pointless and baseless argument. and that's the underlying theme behind all this. you even buy into the concept that it's white people doing this to us. are you sure? how do you know the international banks don't also have blacks, hispanics, arabs, chinese, japanese and etc, board members who are in on the thing? somebody is trying to blame white people almost exclusively, for crap every racial group on the planet is doing.
why?

Originally posted by undo
it's happening to me now just as it happened to him, is the more appropriate way to frame it. and since i wasn't there, and neither was he, it's a pointless and baseless argument. and that's the underlying theme behind all this. you even buy into the concept that it's white people doing this to us. are you sure? how do you know the international banks don't also have blacks, hispanics, arabs, chinese, japanese and etc, members who are in on the thing? somebody is trying to blame white people almost exclusively, for crap every racial group on the planet is doing.

Look I actually spend a lot of time trying to pull people out of the "white guilt" feelings and thoughts. I'm not oblivious to this.

I focus on the white people the same way I think black people should also focus on the fact black people sold black people to white people. And still do.

I've given you the terms necessary to REMOVE the White guilt and go exactly for what you are trying to talk about. But we can't lie to ourselves and pretend it's not predominately "whites" taking advantage of "everyone" in America. It's not ALL whites... it's simply the mathematical breakdown of those primarily in control of the wealth here and trying to turn a blind eye isn't going to help because you will always wind up putting yourself in "their" corner against all the other races... even though you aren't a part of "Those" whites (I presume).

So long as YOU keep this about race rather than admitting if you are ever taken advantage of in this country it will probably be by a wealthy white person.... you are going to help keep it going. I've tried to emphasize the "leader" whites INTENT for this to happen here to de-emphasize the racist side of it. They don't care if you are white or hispanic or indian.

ALL they care about is "Will I profit". If they profit more lifting up whites at others expense... they will. If they profit more from pushing whites down at others gain. They will. If they stand to profit from raising Native Americans against whites they will.

If YOU give in and make this about fearing being white rather than staying focused on who is the real issue and always focusing on directing the conversation towards them... YOU will have been the pawn you are so desperately trying to avoid.

It will never be about whites, blacks, indians, hispanics, etc... those will be used against all of us of all races... and as you've identified this situation *can* (and if you and others continue to sustain it) become about "against whites" as opposed to "against American Government BS"... which is exactly what all of this immigration stuff is about because it is clearly designed to allow it to happen as much as possible while pretending to fight it.

YOU have the choice to always reframe this as "Those who stand to profit" and "Those who stand to be screwed" because then it allows you to deal with all those Japanese and Saudis and Chinese and Indians and Whites and what not who are really doing it and not worry as much about all the japanese and saudis and chinese and indians and whites just trying to get by or speak up from their own vantage point (which you may not agree with... but will ignore at your own peril).

ALL they care about is "Will I profit". If they profit more lifting up whites at others expense... they will. If they profit more from pushing whites down at others gain. They will. If they stand to profit from raising Native Americans against whites they will.

that's the only thing you said that makes sense and right now, they are profiting by not just pushing whites down but genociding them entirely off the face of the planet, and they do this by stirring up racial hatred between groups that were hithertofore getting along just fine. and if you try to point it out, you are shamed for even noticing. . the rest of it, sounds like thinly veiled racism against white people, specifically. maybe you have a political iron in this fire? what is your solution to this situation?

Originally posted by undo
that's the only thing you said that makes sense and right now, they are profiting by not just pushing whites down but genociding them entirely off the face of the planet, and they do this by stirring up racial hatred between groups that were hithertofore getting along just fine. and if you try to point it out, you are shamed for even noticing. . the rest of it, sounds like thinly veiled racism against white people, specifically. maybe you have a political iron in this fire? what is your solution to this situation?

I make video games and currently have quit because I got tired of watching us exploit people's addictions and self esteem... and instead working on something for free to release for free because I think it will be more important for the long term value our industry than more AAA shooters.

That's the stick I have in the fire.

I'm not disagreeing with you that racial hatred will stir it up. I'm saying rather than FEED that by reacting negatively to what this guy is saying and becoming "afraid" of being white... you can instead focus on 1) what is the good he IS bringing to light and 2) how can I then re-discuss it with others in a way that will help direct focus away from the "racial" interpretation and focus on the lack of logic in the entire discourse relative to who is really making it keep happening (and the lack of attention being given to them).

My solution right now is to do what I'm doing here... every time I enter a discussion like this work as hard as possible to take all the racist energy in both directions and focus on everyone trying to redefine the discussion as "Profiteers" and "Exploited"... because until we do that we will never make progress and will continue to be pawns.

Nothing else has worked... the ONLY thing that has ever worked through thousands of years of recorded history is teaching people to think differently about the problem so they can then start to see different solutions than running to the VERY people letting it happen and saying "will you please make this stop?" And they say sure... and it keeps happening. Some laws are passed. Keeps happening. Fines are levied. Keeps happening.

Eventually it's no longer shame on the immigrants and the Profiteers... but shame on us for being fooled over and over and over again.

Despite what you might think I have been trying to do, I've been trying to steer the conversation through the racial biases so that ALL races are seen in the Profiteers and ALL races are seen in the Exploited.

You can either be the person who when someone does come to you with racist attitudes on immigration (especially towards whites) you react in a way that perpetrates it... or you try to talk to them about redefining it so it's "you two" against "them"... not you against each other. If they are too angry to discuss with then you simply disengage. But always stay focused even when you are being yelled at (or think you are) to redefine it into who the true players are that keep making it happen.

We are conditioned to look for quick fixes. This isn't a quick fix and will never be because those who have the "tools" right now don't want it fixed. We have to change our attitudes.

But these are all of course just my opinions to be taken or left as everyone so choose. I don't claim to be right, but so far it's been more effective in discussions than the versions I had before I focused on re-defining the players.