Doctors kill 2,450% more Americans than all gun-related deaths combined

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by ParasuvO
reply to post by CX

 

I laugh at the people who are beyond paranoid, and those are the ones complaining about this source.

Sorry but I think you have that backwards. The author of this article has got to be the most paranoid person out there. Anyone who sees a killer behind every lab coat needs help.

There is a systemic problem in health care for the elderly..... Not every person in a lab coat is bad .... however not every person in a lab coat, nurses uniform or even orderly is up to the job or competent to do their job .......

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

Someone arrives at a hospital having a heart attack after decades of an unhealthy lifestyle and the doctors are not able to save him and you want to place the blame on the doctors? Maybe the Health Ranger is OK with that but I am not.

The deaths from drunk driving are probably not included because of the lack of intent to kill on the part of the driver.

edit on 4-2-2013 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

????? Doctors should be able to tell if an elderly woman in her 70s who had a severe seizure had a dislocated jaw vs a stroke? The moronic doctors at the hospital let Aunt Lee lay there for 7 days before her care giver, Sharon my fiancée, got over a severe cold went to see her. Within minutes of her arrival, Sharon called for a doctor and Lee's jaw was reset! The hospital was going to let her starve to death because Lee had a living will....

making excuses for piss poor doctoring is all your doing ....

Originally posted by pillock
Quoting naturalnews , believing what they are saying and posting it here on ATS is a double face palm.
We know that naturalnews is a bad site to be quoting .

HI Pillock, I want to say that I know what I have seen and experienced in dealing with getting health care for seniors. I have see n the great and the good and the bad and stupid... to the neglect ..... in hospitals and professionals who help people care for their loved ones...... I don't need Natural News to warn me to be careful around doctors....

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
????? Doctors should be able to tell if an elderly woman in her 70s who had a severe seizure had a dislocated jaw vs a stroke? The moronic doctors at the hospital let Aunt Lee lay there for 7 days before her care giver, Sharon my fiancée, got over a severe cold went to see her. Within minutes of her arrival, Sharon called for a doctor and Lee's jaw was reset! The hospital was going to let her starve to death because Lee had a living will....

making excuses for piss poor doctoring is all your doing ....

Your one example is just that, one case in millions.

Nobody is making excuses just pointing out that painting every doctor with the same brush isn't being honest either.

reply to post by 2manyquestions

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Doctors are people, criminals are people, mentally disturbed people are people. [It] Doesn't matter what instrument is being wielded or what the intentions are, the victims are still dead regardless of whether it happened with a gun, with a scalpel, with a car, poison, intentionally or accidentally.

The logic is 'Dr's kill more people than guns. So where's the Dr Control?."

Let's iron this out a bit.

If people are dying of adverse drug effects, is it because the Dr. is holding them down and shoving pills down their throat? No. The Dr. is making an educated diagnosis, based upon what he learned in American educational systems, with pressure from pharmaceutical companies bent on profit, and the patient is willingly ingesting the drug without question.

Is the Dr. forcing the patient to go to the Dr. against his will? No.

Did the patient likely have health complications before going to the Dr.? Probably.

Is it the Dr's aim to "deal death" to his patients? Rhetorical question.

Will more people live if no one ever went to the Dr.? ........

Dr's are not weapons. And there was no mention of doing away with the drugs, the pharmaceutical pressure, the unhealthy habits of the patient or the obviously poor standard of a medical education—the real causes of this 'holocaust.'

I'm not arguing gun control. I'm arguing the lack of critical thought in the author's polemic.

Also:

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people." Is the lamest and least thought out cliché of an argument I've ever seen. It's akin to "it's always in the last place you look." Of course guns don't kill people; they aren't even alive. You're only pointing out the obvious.

Originally posted by unityemissions
I'm pretty sure this is a lie. Lie by omission at the very least.

How many die because of the three mentioned? How many die due to other reasons not mentioned? How many were already dead men walking, and then put into doctors hands, and doctors try their best, and the patient still dies?

This number seems pretty damned bogus. Especially considering the source. Naturalnews is not a legitimate source of information to be trusted, in my assessment. It's propaganda.

Ok, will these sources pass you test?

www.medicalnewstoday.com...

About 1.14 million patient-safety incidents occurred among the 37 million hospitalizations in the Medicare population over the years 2000-2002.

Of the total 323,993 deaths among Medicare patients in those years who developed one or more patient-safety incidents, 263,864, or 81 percent, of these deaths were directly attributable to the incident(s).

One in every four Medicare patients who were hospitalized from 2000 to 2002 and experienced a patient-safety incident died.

The 16 patient-safety incidents accounted for $8.54 billion in excess in-patient costs to the Medicare system over the three years studied. Extrapolated to the entire U.S., an extra $19 billion was spent and more than 575,000 preventable deaths occurred from 2000 to 2002

www.cancure.org...

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).

www.thecommonwealthfund.com... ort/830_Bleich_errors%20pdf.pdf

Here is clear evidence this has been a problem for longer than the OP talks about ... this paper is from 1999 and talks about death by medicine at the hand of doctors ...... to discount it without checking it out is ignorant!

reply to post by daskakik


I wish that were true ...... It is not one in millions either ... I have seen 5-6 other cases even without looking ..... keep telling yourself that ..... you sound like the head nurse we tried to have fired ... she dealt with people so long she treated them like a bag of potatoes ....... I could also talk about my grandmother ......

FACT ... in 1999 between 44000 and 92000 were killed in medical mistakes ......

www.thecommonwealthfund.com... 30_Bleich_errors%20pdf.pdf

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Les, I think that guns and medical mistakes is a very poor analogy for their respective issues..... the facts can not be denied that medical mistakes do kill more people than guns ..... and medical mistakes is not some poor bastard coming in and dying from preventable healthcare issues. These are often preventable medical mistakes like drug interactions, infections and infectious disease spread by medical personnel and such ..... I would also include missed diagnosis when the doctor fails to order appropriate tests......
.

reply to post by fnpmitchreturns

One of the articles you posted puts the death by accident at less than 200,000. The CDC estimates that Physician office visits are about a billion a year so:
200,000/1Billion = .0002 or .02%

Is there a problem. Yes but it isn't as bad as you or the article in the OP are making it out to be and if you add the lame part about gun control, which you just seemed to toss aside to push what your trying to push, the article is even more ridiculous.

So what's the point of this thread ? To point out how bad is medecine as a whole in the USA ?

Because Nazis killing more people than Al Qaeda doesn't mean the latter isn't dangerous isn't it ?

reply to post by fnpmitchreturns


I can agree with the facts, just not the utter insanity of equating Drs to weaponry. The American medical profession is a disaster.

What a good little NRA automaton you are. This is the latest propaganda to go around from the NRA. So sad that gun nuts can't think for themselves.

First off, how many lives do doctors or anyone else in EMS save every day?

How many patients do they see compared to gun owners?

Comparing cars to gun ownership is also silly. First off, cars are created for transportation, not killing. They are used every day in numbers exponentially higher than any gun. So comparing baseline numbers is disengenuous at best.

Every year cars are made to be safer. The same cannot be said for guns. And when cars reach the point where they self drive, you will see the number of accidents drop like a rock.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by fnpmitchreturns

 

One of the articles you posted puts the death by accident at less than 200,000. The CDC estimates that Physician office visits are about a billion a year so:
200,000/1Billion = .0002 or .02%

Is there a problem. Yes but it isn't as bad as you or the article in the OP are making it out to be and if you add the lame part about gun control, which you just seemed to toss aside to push what your trying to push, the article is even more ridiculous.

as I told another poster that gun deaths/control is a poor analogy ... something I would not have used ...

as far a the percentages of deaths compared to doctor visits I take with a grain of salt .... because that includes ALL visits even for routine care .....

I would advise you to volunteer at a nursing home if you want to see the inside and not the fluffy feel good side of the medical business.....

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
as I told another poster that gun deaths/control is a poor analogy ... something I would not have used ...

But that is what the thread is about and it is the reason people questioned the source.

as far a the percentages of deaths compared to doctor visits I take with a grain of salt .... because that includes ALL visits even for routine care .....

Again, the source states that doctors pose more of a threat then guns. If the average person can visit one 3 or 4 times a year and walk away then it would seem that that isn't true.

How many people get shot at 3 or 4 times a year without being harmed?

I would advise you to volunteer at a nursing home if you want to see the inside and not the fluffy feel good side of the medical business.....

Who said anything about the medical business being fluffy feel good? It is many times about blood, guts, pain and death and as in anything there is a certain amount of human error. Your the one who has a problem swallowing that reality.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Doctors are people, criminals are people, mentally disturbed people are people. [It] Doesn't matter what instrument is being wielded or what the intentions are, the victims are still dead regardless of whether it happened with a gun, with a scalpel, with a car, poison, intentionally or accidentally.

The logic is 'Dr's kill more people than guns. So where's the Dr Control?."

I don't think the point here is to reign in the doctors, it's that the outrage over gun deaths is overblown in the media compared to many other issues causing death in this country. Same could be said for alcohol/drunk driving and dangerous-to-human-health food production (GMO/HFCS, etc.) which is linked to diabetes, cancer and other deadly ailments.

Let's iron this out a bit.

If people are dying of adverse drug effects, is it because the Dr. is holding them down and shoving pills down their throat? No. The Dr. is making an educated diagnosis, based upon what he learned in American educational systems, with pressure from pharmaceutical companies bent on profit, and the patient is willingly ingesting the drug without question.

The patient is ingesting these drugs without questions because he trusts that his doctor knows what he's prescribing. Their "educated" doctor is writing that prescription. Patients trust their doctors, because they assume these people know what they're doing. That assumption is many times wrong. Some of these drugs are addictive or cause side-effects for which additional damaging drugs need to be prescribed. There is something to be said about the doctor who gives in to pressures from pharmaceutical companies to sell their drugs without checking into them first.

Is the Dr. forcing the patient to go to the Dr. against his will? No.

Did the patient likely have health complications before going to the Dr.? Probably.

Is it the Dr's aim to "deal death" to his patients? Rhetorical question.

Will more people live if no one ever went to the Dr.? ........

I'm not arguing that all doctors are bad. I'm arguing that the bad doctors rack up quite the statistics when it comes to premature patient death. Most doctors don't aim to lose patients, but some do because of their ignorance or carelessness. "Will more people live if no one ever went to the Dr.?" I don't know the answer to that question, all I know is that many who did go, ended up dead at the hands of their doctors before their time was up. I'm not saying "Don't go to your doctor".

My argument is that people are outraged by the number of gun deaths, but don't even realize that what's really killing them receives no attention, because it doesn't meet a political agenda.

Dr's are not weapons. And there was no mention of doing away with the drugs, the pharmaceutical pressure, the unhealthy habits of the patient or the obviously poor standard of a medical education—the real causes of this 'holocaust.'

I'm not arguing gun control. I'm arguing the lack of critical thought in the author's polemic.

As if insults were ever part of a logical argument.

Also:

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people." Is the lamest and least thought out cliché of an argument I've ever seen. It's akin to "it's always in the last place you look." Of course guns don't kill people; they aren't even alive. You're only pointing out the obvious.

The point of that cliche argument is that the real issue here is the upbringing and culture of a people who oftentimes revert to needles violence when they encounter a problem in their lives. First there were hands that could choke the life out of somebody, then there were rocks, then poisons, then spears, swords, bows and arrows, guns, bombs, lasers,.....not to mention all the objects in between that were never designed to kill anyone,....but they did. These are the things that person A invented to either fight person B, or person B invented to defend himself against person A. In a violent world objects are only tools of those who wield them. They can be used for good or bad. The outrage over gun violence has brought on legislation and laws that would ban guns, but these laws completely seem to ignore the real issue. Guns are a symptom of the disease. As long as this disease continues to spread, guns will be an important part which will sometimes be the deciding factor of whether you live or die.

The outrage should not be about how many people died by the gun, the outrage should be about why they died by the gun. Sometimes that reason can be linked to the good doctor who prescribed anti-depressants that have been linked to increased suicidal/homicidal tendencies in young adults aged between 18 and 25. Coincidence?

reply to post by 2manyquestions


These people should be consulting the drug expert, the pharmacist, and not the doctor.

How many of these people consulted their pharmacists?

These threads are getting more and more pathetic as each day passes.

Moronic analogies reflecting the moronic mentalities of those incapable of logical reasoning...

You do realize that the rest of the world is reading this garbage and assessing Americans as a whole based on this ridiculous verbal vomit, right ?

My sympathies to all Americans who do not fall into this category... what a horrible embarrassment this crap must be for you.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus

So in other words, you cannot back that up with statistics or credible sources and are trying to obfuscate that reality. So opinion trying to be passed off as fact.

Are you for real. Please use your nouse. The Ops statement makes no logical sense. Can you not see that. It is like comparing apples and oranges. They are different.. I shall break it down for you...

Gun are used to maim or kill

Docters are sworn by oath to heal.

If a docter fails in his work people might die. If a gun fails in its work people might live....


You are really messed up if you think the healers of the world kill more people than weapons...

reply to post by 2manyquestions

Guns can and do save lives as well. That's why you see cops carrying guns.

NO you have cops carrying them because of your culture. Here in the UK most cops do not carry them yet they save lifes.. Really there are other ways to make yourselves feel manly if you need to. We manage just fine over here in the UK without guns..

reply to post by 2manyquestions

My argument is that people are outraged by the number of gun deaths, but don't even realize that what's really killing them receives no attention, because it doesn't meet a political agenda.

I think they are outraged because violence committed with guns involves an intent to harm, maim, or kill. They go to see the Dr. on their own accord, and do so by choice knowing the Dr isn't intending to harm, maim, or kill them. There is a giant chasm of difference here.

But like you said, this spin on a dire issue into one of gun control is a political agenda.

If the author's argument was to shed light on an atrocity committed by the medical profession, he could of presented his facts and proved his argument, but "because it doesn't meet a political agenda," he didn't, and instead chose to add unnecessary fuel to an unnecessary fire. And people buy it.

How this is a gun-control issue or equates to guns in any way is beyond comprehension. Why aren't we talking about the very real issue of how ridiculous and dangerous American healthcare is? Do you think the author would go that route with the facts he just presented?