The Storm Gathers

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Great OP...I truly enjoy reading your words. They reflect an image that is very familiar to me...

One bit of advice though, if I may...

If you are going to play the "hillbilly" card, you should probably avoid using such an extensive vocabulary. And STOP making so much darn sense!

S&F, Sir....

It's all part of my diabolical plan - I sit here posting, dictionary in hand, in order to keep them off balance! I run the logic of it past a 5 year old niece, in order to make sure the logic will fly...

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by jefwane
I've kicked around the idea of a RATS thread war gaming the hypothetical scenarios should such a thing go hot. I hear all these people saying"you'll never be able to stand against the government", and think they've never looked at either history or what could be done against the "almighty government". I'm glad the OP brought up the FACT that those that would push us to this rely on the urban centers for their political power. If such a storm were to go hot I'd imaging that a large percentage of the combat power any loyalist military formations would be tied up keeping order in the Urban areas.

fantastic idea...

and by "loyalist", i'm assuming you mean the ones that are left after most of them "defect" to side with the real americans?

I think by "loyalist" he means those who would side with the king - erm, I mean the government. They called them "tories" way back when, and during the first revolution, they were a thorn in the patriot's sides - I don't see it being much different if the balloon were to go up right now.

I don't see much defection from the cities. The government can lock those up tighter than a drum, control nearly everything going in and out of them. That's the problem with concentrations - they are too easily surrounded and cut off. When, however, the food they had to send in to them slowed to a trickle, they would have to tie up more troopers to "quell domestic disturbances". People in the countryside can act as guerrillas, but people in the cities would have to act as underground, traditionally labeled "terrorists" because of the nature of operating in smaller cells and mainly having to rely on sabotage and espionage. Some coordination for them would be desirable, but very difficult to actualize. The net result would be more "lone wolf" sabotage operations, or at least appear to be so.

Now, if you throw into the equation outside help, it becomes a real grinder. The government would have to rely more heavily on imported foodstuffs, which would be coming from an increasingly hungry world, due to the lack of production occurring in the midwest here. Other countries have surpluses, and that's where the US would have to go, but everything they import would take away from someone else, creating more animosity.

There are old rivalries, and would be new animosities, that would doubtless see the resistance supplied via foreign interventions. Think "France during the revolution". France had a bug up it's collective ass against the British, and the colonists benefited from that animosity. Things would be similar in the modern world - have you read anything coming out of Russia lately about the US government?

Never thought, 30 years ago, that I would EVER be thinking Russia had the potential to aid a Revolution here, but the world has changed in that 30 years. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but you can bet your last dollar that SOMEONE overseas has enough red-ass at the US government to assist a ragtag bunch of rebels here, with no fear of losing that dollar.

Chavez recently (last 4 years or so) imported WAY more arms than his country can use from Russia. Where do you suppose those arms might wind up, given Chavez's proclivities?

Yeah, it could turn into an ugly meat grinder, and necessity often creates strange bedfellows.

Originally posted by Milkflavour

I think it would be a good thing if Americans stood against the government. Do I think an actual civil war scenario would be good, with people dying? No, but nor do I think it's likely. They might try and force the laws through but people just won't abide by it. They'll be forced to back down simply because, in reality, no law is enforceable if enough people refuse to accep it.

That would be a best case scenario. War is bad. People get killed, things get torn up, and some times those people and things are near and dear to your own heart. Better to avoid open violence if at all possible. It's equally true that if enough people simply refuse to comply, then the law is effectively null. The real question lies in what the government WOULD do if they see control slipping from their hands. Historically, it has usually involved a crackdown and display of force, which would be the catalyst here in moving things along from "non-compliance" to "active resistance", with severely negative results for all.

If, on the other hand, the government here just says "oh, we were obviously mistaken, let's just fix a few of your gripes then!" every one goes home alive and happy at the end of the day. We get our liberties, and the government gets to keep their cushy chairs within the boundaries their people set.

THAT would be the best outcome possible, but it will likely be a bit from both column "A" and column "B".

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by nenothtu


Any farm boy that can blow a stump out of the ground can bring a bridge feeding a city down too.

Tread lightly brother. Uncle Sam seems to be gettin' his panties in a wad over all sorts of free speech more and more lately.
People are getting arrested for Facebook posts and Oath Keepers who don't feel comfortable drawing attention to their membership. Can you blame them?
That's where we're at, Sugar.

It IS where we're at now, but the simple fact is, if we don't stand, we fall, and someone has to do it. If we just sit down and shut up like good little serfs, they win without a peep or a whimper.

Fact is, I can't blow a stump out of the ground - but if they nab ME for speaking a generality like that, which is not a threat, but a simple observation of the absolute truth, then while they are tied up with ME, they are missing the guy that can git 'er done...

Now, if enough of us otherwise useless folks keep their system tied up with hunting us down and prosecuting us for nothing, then what happens to the REALLY dangerous folks? Can't arrest us all, and those other guys? They're out there in the shadows, wiring stuff up because they can see the writing on the wall as we are being kangaroo-courted. Might be THEM next, and they're not gonna have that!

Originally posted by irishchic

It won't be that long at all before "something" happens and I hate to say it but I think it will...

I am "rural" and not only did the Dodge Ram commercial ring TRUE, it pretty much defines what sets people who work hard for what they have apart from those who feel entitled to it all in just about every way.

It's not only "farmers"...it's those who have played by the rules,paid their fair-share believed in the American Dream, and in democracy.

You're right - where I am, it's more coal miners than farmers, and they are a bit put out by the government trying to raise the urban folks' energy costs by running the coal miners out of jobs.

The thing is, it takes all kinds, and EVERYTHING that the population, urban or rural, depends on comes originally out of the countryside. If the link is broken between here and the cities, well, the urbanites suffer more for it, because we are still out here where the "stuff" is, and have somewhat easier access to it.

Another example is steel. we send tons of scrap to China, which is "reworked" and sent back to us at profit. That steel originates in urban centers, because that's where the foundries are... but the ORE, well, now that's a little bit of a different story...

It's not just the food from the farmers,but that would likely be where the first shortages start, along with the power that is generated from coal. The luckiest urbanites, power wise, would be the ones powered by nuclear plants. Those would be pretty safe. The ones using coal would be the first to go, and the ones using hydro... well, those dams aren't mobile enough to get away, and the pissed off country folks, having nothing better to do, might get around to them eventually ...

If this kicks off, ain't NOBODY coming out the other side in better shape materially. Much better to find another solution, one that keeps the constituency happy.

Any government folks reading this - come talk to me - I'm sure we could find an equitable answer. Check your guns, jackboots, and kevlar helmets at the gate, though... if I don't need 'em, you don't either.

Excellent Op!

Also, to who posted that Dodge Commercial, that was good!

I think what's happening is they're actually trying to play the urban citizens against the rural ones. I never dealt much with urban people before I joined the navy, I grew outside of a town of 360. When I was in the Navy, my friends from large cities would instantly think that somebody from the country or somebody with a southern accent was stupid. And in some ways, maybe they were right, however, most of them couldn't grow their own garden or fix their own car, that stuff is common sense to me.

I hope it never comes to an outright resistance, but if there is one, be it over gun control, freedom of speech, or any other inalienable right, I will be on the side fight for our rights, which of course would be the side of the resistance most likely.

I'm glad that Oklahoma city doesn't determine our laws like New York City determines New York's laws.

If it came down to it though, most people in urban areas would have to take the side of the government, as most of them have never had to actually provide their own food, other than picking it up at the market. Some cities won't even let you grow a vegetable garden, and you can forget having livestock for food. Out here, we can do what we want as far as that goes.

reply to post by dave_welch


Well, urban folks tend to see rural folks as "Stupid" or "ignorant rednecks" etc, but the fact is we are no more stupid than they, but fresh off the turnip truck, we are somewhat more ignorant of THEIR ways and customs, so they won't generally see past that. On the other hand, an urbanite transplanted out here finds himself in the same boat - ignorant of OUR ways until he can learn them.

As they say, "ignorant" can be cured, but "stupid" is forever, and that's the main difference. For example, I personally think it's kind of "stupid" to think urban areas can get along without the produce from this "ignorant" countryside. I may be wrong - it may merely be "ignorant" to think that, and they may just need a little education in the matter to cure it.

You mention some cities not allowing gardens, and that's true. Some ALSO don't allow wells, insisting that every one tie into the water mains instead. High Point, NC is like that - I had a friend there who was made to fill in his well and tie into the city water supply instead. Now, they can say it's "health concerns" all they want, but the simple fact is, it makes EVERYONE dependent on the government for even their basic water, and dependent upon the government at the government's profit. That water ain't free any more, and it can be cut off just that quick. Easy to control someone when you control their next drink of water.

Speaking of free water, Greensboro, NC even taxes folks on the RAIN that falls on their property. How about we make that one go nation wide? I mean, if the solution DC finds for their "gun problem" is the template for national law, then why not Greensboro's solution to their "rain problem"?

Kennesaw GA has a law on the books REQUIRING arms in the home. How about we make THAT law go nation wide, too, including New York City? After all, in their thoughts, their solution is good enough for all the rest, so, since what's good for the goose is good for the gander, other solutions found ought to be good enough for THEM, right?

See, when we start applying this "one size fits all" legislation across the board, glitches are bound to develop. Since Colorado thinks medical marijuana is perfectly fine, maybe we ought to apply THAT to Washington, DC as well. One for all and all for one...

Come to think of it, maybe keeping congress in a perpetual stupor really COULD be the answer!

Well, not to speak in favor of the evil one, but it seems to me, that if there was another civil war, maybe the economy would finally start moving in the right direction again...

Nothing makes a country boom more, than the necessity of rebuilding a vast majority of it's landmarks and infrastructure...!

Hopefully, it never comes to that, but the healing would be a prosporous time. That is, assuming there is anyone left to do the labor!

Originally posted by nenothtu

I think by "loyalist" he means those who would side with the king - erm, I mean the government. They called them "tories" way back when, and during the first revolution, they were a thorn in the patriot's sides - I don't see it being much different if the balloon were to go up right now.

I don't see much defection from the cities. The government can lock those up tighter than a drum, control nearly everything going in and out of them. That's the problem with concentrations - they are too easily surrounded and cut off. When, however, the food they had to send in to them slowed to a trickle, they would have to tie up more troopers to "quell domestic disturbances". People in the countryside can act as guerrillas, but people in the cities would have to act as underground, traditionally labeled "terrorists" because of the nature of operating in smaller cells and mainly having to rely on sabotage and espionage. Some coordination for them would be desirable, but very difficult to actualize. The net result would be more "lone wolf" sabotage operations, or at least appear to be so.

Now, if you throw into the equation outside help, it becomes a real grinder. The government would have to rely more heavily on imported foodstuffs, which would be coming from an increasingly hungry world, due to the lack of production occurring in the midwest here. Other countries have surpluses, and that's where the US would have to go, but everything they import would take away from someone else, creating more animosity.

There are old rivalries, and would be new animosities, that would doubtless see the resistance supplied via foreign interventions. Think "France during the revolution". France had a bug up it's collective ass against the British, and the colonists benefited from that animosity. Things would be similar in the modern world - have you read anything coming out of Russia lately about the US government?

Never thought, 30 years ago, that I would EVER be thinking Russia had the potential to aid a Revolution here, but the world has changed in that 30 years. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but you can bet your last dollar that SOMEONE overseas has enough red-ass at the US government to assist a ragtag bunch of rebels here, with no fear of losing that dollar.

Chavez recently (last 4 years or so) imported WAY more arms than his country can use from Russia. Where do you suppose those arms might wind up, given Chavez's proclivities?

Yeah, it could turn into an ugly meat grinder, and necessity often creates strange bedfellows.

i was actually referring to armed services personnel when i was talking about defections, and you mirrored what i said in regards to the definition of "loyalist"

Honestly, i don't want war in america...it's an ugly proposition, and would be an even uglier reality..it is not the least bit appealing to me. that's not to say i'm one of those "roll over and take it" types either...you won't find MY ass in any camp....that ain't how i'm going out.

i'm not gonna brag about what kind of training i have, or what kind of weapons i may or may not have, or how "i'm gonna do this", and "i'm gonna do that"...pulling the trigger on anyone is a horrible experience, and you never forget your first..sadly, it gets easier to DO, but it never gets easy to ACCEPT.....i shudder at the thought of americans at war with one another, and i honestly don't know that i'd be able to kill my fellow countrymen, and i hope to hell i NEVER hafta find out..

i can't stress enough how much i'd really rather not..

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
Well, not to speak in favor of the evil one, but it seems to me, that if there was another civil war, maybe the economy would finally start moving in the right direction again...

Nothing makes a country boom more, than the necessity of rebuilding a vast majority of it's landmarks and infrastructure...!

Hopefully, it never comes to that, but the healing would be a prosporous time. That is, assuming there is anyone left to do the labor!

There's always mexicans..

Where are they coming down on all this? The media never even mentions the Tribes up there? Are they silent for the Casino money and desire to keep that flowing without rocking the boat.....or are they as pissed as everyone else?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Actually Cumo is pushing for opening of casino's. It's funny that you mention this, as there has been quite a bit in the newspapers about them.
As to the op I live in NY and I'm heading up to a protest in Albany next week. The people around me are quite tee'd off about this new law. Those who were not really of a opinion on guns are upset about the underhanded methods used to push it through. There are some suits about the laws, but with the wheels of justice turn who knows when it will be reviewed.

Well written Op.

If this were several months ago, I would have quickly dismissed your theory as coming from someone who had clearly lost his marbles. I deal in antiques as a hobby and normally frequent pawn shops and flea markets far more than I should be, given the economic disaster the country faces. In the last month, not once have i entered a pawn shop that was not crowded with patrons buying guns and ammunition in response to the threats of gun control. In fact, in one small pawn shop I frequent, the dealer had run out of guns weeks ago and was actually taking payment for guns he may acquire in the future and through catalog ordering from the distributors. I will never forget the flea markets I have visited the last month that appeared as though I was stepping into some war zone for the amount of weapons and ammunition being bartered. The ammunition was exponentially higher than what it sold for in stores two months ago. Clearly the North Carolina hills famous for its moonshine during prohibition, will not be giving up its 2nd without a fight.

Check this link: www.snopes.com...

I believe this is what we should do in America. Not 100% sure it would work due to the larger variety of people (yes, I'm assuming we're more diverse, but I'm not sure on that either since I don't know what it's like in Switzerland), but I think it's worth a shot. (whoa, what a pun!)

Any chance that this could prevent the coming storm? And one other idea, along the same train of thought, why not start here? ATS already has a decent foundation for changing something, with all the registered members and even any guests that read this by chance. Just keep it peaceful of course, but maybe a petition or something?

I'm leaving the subscribe box checked so I'll see what others think next week or something

reply to post by nenothtu
[m
I'm sure this will sound funny to someone so....here in the UK where I am now living guns are officially not allowed but people have them. In order to ge the license for a gun you must get a note from a farmer which implies he knows you and will be using it to kill vermin. It is funny. I'm not sure how we are considered a gun free country with so many blood thirsty hunters around me. It was going to take me proper ID and police check and a cool off period before I could get a gun in florida but here...a note from my neighbour may do XD
Perhaps I am oversimplifying it but the fact you need a farmers note is the funniest requirement ever. If the US did it the same you country folk will have nothing to worry about. The walking dead will result from the vaccines in the big cities and Hershell will take them all out with his shotgun on the from porch of his farm XD

Originally posted by Shaiker
Well written Op.

If this were several months ago, I would have quickly dismissed your theory as coming from someone who had clearly lost his marbles. I deal in antiques as a hobby and normally frequent pawn shops and flea markets far more than I should be, given the economic disaster the country faces. In the last month, not once have i entered a pawn shop that was not crowded with patrons buying guns and ammunition in response to the threats of gun control. In fact, in one small pawn shop I frequent, the dealer had run out of guns weeks ago and was actually taking payment for guns he may acquire in the future and through catalog ordering from the distributors. I will never forget the flea markets I have visited the last month that appeared as though I was stepping into some war zone for the amount of weapons and ammunition being bartered. The ammunition was exponentially higher than what it sold for in stores two months ago. Clearly the North Carolina hills famous for its moonshine during prohibition, will not be giving up its 2nd without a fight.

Odd you should mention the North Carolina hills. Long ago, Lewis Redmond knew what to do when faced with an Unconstitutional situation, and I have no doubt that spirit lives on in them thar hills. It turned out poorly for Lewis in the end, but that didn't stop him from doing what he felt he had to.

I've not been out buying guns and ammo - or trying to - but I'm hearing the same sort of stories from all over. It's not just North Carolina, or even limited to the spine of the Appalachians. It's all over. People are displeased with the current climate, and registering that displeasure quietly but firmly. It's that quiet part that troubles me. When folks get quiet in the face of abuse, it usually means they're done talking because they feel like no one is listening.

The next thing they do is get the attention of the ears they think really ought to be listening to them. If they feel like talking isn't doing it, well, they'll get attention, one way or another.

Originally posted by paradox4
Check this link: www.snopes.com...

I believe this is what we should do in America. Not 100% sure it would work due to the larger variety of people (yes, I'm assuming we're more diverse, but I'm not sure on that either since I don't know what it's like in Switzerland), but I think it's worth a shot. (whoa, what a pun!)

Any chance that this could prevent the coming storm? And one other idea, along the same train of thought, why not start here? ATS already has a decent foundation for changing something, with all the registered members and even any guests that read this by chance. Just keep it peaceful of course, but maybe a petition or something?

I'm leaving the subscribe box checked so I'll see what others think next week or something

I don't think it's a bad idea, but I'm on the wrong side of the ideological fence. I think everyone ought to have at least a basic training level, and I think everyone ought to have a firearm available for emergencies. However, I can understand that there are just some folks around who want no part of it, and I can respect that. I don't think it would be right, proper, or prudent to force them to be armed, any more than it's right, proper, or prudent to force everyone else to be disarmed.

There are some folks who are just not cut out for that sort of thing, and it does them and all of their potential comrades a disservice to force them into that situation. I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be trapped in a foxhole with someone who is ideologically opposed to ending someone who is trying to end ME.

On the other hand, there are other things that those types of people could do that would eliminate the conflict, in a sort of "conscientious objector" role. Any military force is comprised of far more than just the lowly trigger pullers. there are clerks, cooks, medical, etc and ad infinitum. The trigger pullers actually make up a minority.

Overall, the idea has some merit I think, and could be made to work, but it would involve something akin to a draft, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. A draft is a form of involuntary servitude, and in general I'm opposed to it. On the other hand, there seems to be a growing number of people in the US who have lost the "altruism gene", and could give a crap about their fellow man, or his well being, if they've got to get up off their asses to do something for him. Because of that, a draft would be all but a requirement to get this idea off the ground, until a generation came along that put the "virtue" back into the notion of "civic virtue".

Oddly enough, I think that same attitude, or lack, is a big factor in the problem of violence in the US these days. Having it re-installed might not be such a bad idea.

Overall, the notion has merit, and bears further consideration.

Originally posted by NadimahElizabeth
reply to post by nenothtu
[m
I'm sure this will sound funny to someone so....here in the UK where I am now living guns are officially not allowed but people have them. In order to ge the license for a gun you must get a note from a farmer which implies he knows you and will be using it to kill vermin. It is funny. I'm not sure how we are considered a gun free country with so many blood thirsty hunters around me. It was going to take me proper ID and police check and a cool off period before I could get a gun in florida but here...a note from my neighbour may do XD
Perhaps I am oversimplifying it but the fact you need a farmers note is the funniest requirement ever. If the US did it the same you country folk will have nothing to worry about. The walking dead will result from the vaccines in the big cities and Hershell will take them all out with his shotgun on the from porch of his farm XD

Herschel is THE MAN, even if he walks funny now!

He was also ideologically opposed to offing the "walkers" when first we met him - but when the barbarians were at the gates, good ol' Herschel came around and saw the wisdom in it. Some times, I guess, it takes getting dropped into the grease to clarify and crystallize viewpoints.

I don't think the Farmer's Note system would work here, because the guns folks are up in arms about (not sure if that pun was intentional or not!) are not the standard variety vermin rifle. I understand that the main difference between a good coyote rifle and a good sniper rifle is nothing more than the intent of the operator, but what people are so upset about at the moment are the so-called "assault rifles" (which they really are not), not bolt-action hunting rifles/sniper rigs.

Those are next, after the "assault rifles", and it may be that enough people realize that, and want to stop the lunacy NOW, before it gets a good enough foothold to go after the varmint rifles/sniper rigs.

Edit to add: Just for you (and Beezzer, of course), in honor of your avatar, I decided to include a photo of my pet vicious killer attack rabbit. it's a good match for your Tiger Sheep, and a sure sign that the meek really WILL inherit the Earth! This is what patrols the perimeter of my compound/hideout/redoubt. Trespassers, beware!

reply to post by nenothtu


Wow, I hadn't heard about some cities not allowing wells. Of course, I grew up in the country with a well, and there's no water better than well-water, it tastes better, and it tests better too. My mother works for the EPA department of a local Indian Tribe and she's tested our water several time, along with other local wells, and they always test better than the city or rural water fed houses.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Shaiker
Well written Op.

If this were several months ago, I would have quickly dismissed your theory as coming from someone who had clearly lost his marbles. I deal in antiques as a hobby and normally frequent pawn shops and flea markets far more than I should be, given the economic disaster the country faces. In the last month, not once have i entered a pawn shop that was not crowded with patrons buying guns and ammunition in response to the threats of gun control. In fact, in one small pawn shop I frequent, the dealer had run out of guns weeks ago and was actually taking payment for guns he may acquire in the future and through catalog ordering from the distributors. I will never forget the flea markets I have visited the last month that appeared as though I was stepping into some war zone for the amount of weapons and ammunition being bartered. The ammunition was exponentially higher than what it sold for in stores two months ago. Clearly the North Carolina hills famous for its moonshine during prohibition, will not be giving up its 2nd without a fight.

Odd you should mention the North Carolina hills. Long ago, Lewis Redmond knew what to do when faced with an Unconstitutional situation, and I have no doubt that spirit lives on in them thar hills. It turned out poorly for Lewis in the end, but that didn't stop him from doing what he felt he had to.

I've not been out buying guns and ammo - or trying to - but I'm hearing the same sort of stories from all over. It's not just North Carolina, or even limited to the spine of the Appalachians. It's all over. People are displeased with the current climate, and registering that displeasure quietly but firmly. It's that quiet part that troubles me. When folks get quiet in the face of abuse, it usually means they're done talking because they feel like no one is listening.

The next thing they do is get the attention of the ears they think really ought to be listening to them. If they feel like talking isn't doing it, well, they'll get attention, one way or another.

I can affirm the same for the Ozarks in NE Oklahoma, where I live. Got into a discussion with a few old farmers (4 of them were Vets) at a restaurant the other morning, and we talked about the exact same thing.

Spookycolt you are correct your 2 statements are different the second one has 3 more words to say the same thing as the first statement. Shows the people in 1776 were smarter than you. But my screen says you registered on March 2, 2013 are you from the future? because that would give your words more weight.