The Pledge of Allegiance is Brainwashing

reply to post by sirhumperdink


Bull,that is belief.Plain and simple.We said those words because we wanted to we like our country. I liked my father USAF Lt Col. Command pilot. He taught me duty,to the family then to myself.
I travelled to Korea,Germany and the middle east and damn if I still don't think we are the #1 best place on earth bar none.True it's a shame about the corrupt system that hijacked it and they're probably trying to kill us.But there IS no other place better.
Brainwashed? What ever, I watched most of yours occur.
"Quite weapons for silent wars" And we now see the fruits born from it...as predicted.

Originally posted by bjax9er

and this is what, education?

no, just more marxist class warfare claptrap.

edit on 4-2-2013 by bjax9er because: (no reason given)

Sorry for going off topic, Waterbotte, but I had to ask, since when is this legal? When I was in school teachers weren't allowed to promote any of their personal political (or religious) beliefs, or it was at least that way by the time I was in high school.

Back on topic, I understand what you're trying to say, Waterbottle. And for once, I agree with you, kinda. Granted nobody is forced to say it, and you can choose not to, but you will be constantly questioned and ridiculed. I still say it if it comes up, as I believe in the words set down, however, it is my choice to do so, nobody should be forced to or ridiculed for choosing not to say the pledge.

Sorry if someone already posted this but, you're viewing the pledge all wrong. We aren't pledging oursrelves to the government, but to an ideal. Let's dissect

I pledge alegiance to the flag of the United States of America
Translation: I promise loyalty to the FLAG of the United States of America

And to the Republic, for which it stands
Translation: and to a form of government which is made up of representatives of the people

One nation, under god, indivisible
Translation: A large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory, Beneath a power greater than man, unable to be divided

With liberty and justice for ALL
Translation: with freedom and equity for everyone.

So we're pledging to back a flag that has it's own symbolism, none of which is statist. As well as a form of government that is the best form of government known to man (The current version of which, is not commendable, but the idea of a republic sure is). as well as allegiance to our fellow americans, who humble themselves before god, who will not be divided. And finally we pledge ouselves to freedom (still, not the state) and equity for everyone.

Really? that's statist? because it recognizes a form of government?

I know we can get quite paranoid here on ATS, but the pledge is not a pledge to the corruptocrats that we have in office these days.

As for brainwashing, yes, I suppose it is. Anything that you repeat daily is a form of brainwashing. The question is; is it the kind of thing we should believe in?

I'd argue yes, but that's for another post.

"History" of The Pledge of Allegiance IS THAT TRUE?!!

Originally posted by Hecate666
As a German living in the UK and with parents that were young during WW2, I see this pledge through different eyes.
In a way it is nice to have a way to recite your love for your country. We in Germany used to do that a lot but now we are not allowed anymore. I don't know why though because making a gesture with your hand and rattling down a poem that makes it seem that your country is the best seems like a good idea [at least reading some of the posts on here]. But Americans ]mainly] told us Germans that it was a bad idea, probably because it can lead to big headedness and eases attacking other countries a lot. So yeah I understand why we [the Germans were to to stop].

But if this is true, then it must be also true for America. A warfaring country that has been involved in many more wars than Germany. Having grown up in Germany, I watched a lot of east German TV, where the "Pioniere" [Pioneers], kids dressed in beige, singing patriotic songs featured a lot and who were very patriotic.
There was talk about how brilliant the country is, they sang in the morning songs about E-Germany and communism. Just before school. The kids made hand gestures as well. [hand on temple]. Just like the american kids.

So please enlighten me here Americans. If there is no problem with children reciting pledges to their great country, then why is it frowned upon when people in N-Korea or E-Germany or in Nazi Germany do/did it? After all they did/do it with just as much enthusiasm/boredom as your children.

Children are easily impressed and when something seems normal, you can build on that and introduce the next bit.
But don't despair because in general I don't think the pledge is a bad thing IF:

- Anyone who doesn't want to say it is not punished or looked down at/ told to get out of the country etc
- There is no mentioning of god
- It is only said by people over 18 / adults

If those criteria are not met then there IS something sinister about it. I know that I feel uncomfortable seeing American children reciting it because it reminds me a lot of other things.

Thank you for this post. Especially since someone earlier in this thread was telling me to get out of the USA and that I should ask what immigrants thought of it.

reply to post by dave_welch


I don't know. I don't think it's illegal but the teacher should definitely be fired.

reply to post by WaterBottle


You missed the most glaring and alarming part: "And to the republic for which it stands".

The flag stands IN PLACE of the Republic we once had. It is merely a signal, but it has taken on a strange life of its own in the minds of those who think that the flag is something to be allieged to.

FYI Allegiance means loyalty and obedience. I'm never going to be loyal and obedient to a FLAG! F### that! Then the politicians KNOW they can abuse you because you're a drooling ninny who believes a piece of cloth to be sentient!

I never enjoyed doing that in school. Stupid indoctrination prisons.

Originally posted by theAnswer1111
I never enjoyed doing that in school. Stupid indoctrination prisons.

"with liberty and justice for all"

reply to post by WaterBottle
I sure wouldn't want you on my team if there were any chance of facing some serious times. I'm almost certain you are divorced if you were even ever married.
The not believing in The Creator part also, you should check and see if you are even here, it's easy to see you don't have a clue as to what is taking place. Sorry Dude.

Though it my seem wrong in your view to ask a young person to make a pledge to something of this sort, it would most likely take a Man or Adult to understand what it means to make such a pledge and really mean it in their Heart. Sorry Dude.

Hopefully it will not take that many more life times, for you to start and realize yourself as more than just a fart in the wind. Sorry Dude..

One of the big problems with having high ideals and lofty asperations, and America has both, is that you have to at least attempt to live up to them. If you don't, your children will eventually see you for the frauds you are.

If America's ideals were "financial advantage to the white non-Latin Europeans" and "the end justifies the means when you're clawing your way to the top" and every day at school began with a rousing chorus of "Amerika uber Alles" and the burning of some other country's flag, America would be a very different country than it is.

Not that it isn't getting that way.

But America has ideals and within the context of those ideals a pledge to the symbol of those ideals is, yes, "statist brainwashing", but "statist brainwashing" as double edged sword. I think people who do swear allegiance to the flag might have a legitimate bone to pick with legislative representatives who sell votes or pass legislation without reading it.

They might regard such people as traitors to the lofty ideal of what they have sworn allegiance to.

Swearing allegiance to the flag might not be a bad thing if people really took the oath seriously. It could lead to vast marches on Capitol Hill. It could lead to legislators being dragged out of their offices. It could lead to arrests in high places for war crimes and other defilements of the flag carried out by the defilers of an oath.

reply to post by WaterBottle


It is funny how the brainwashed pop out in posts like this, completely in denial and proving your point.
I lived in America for half my life and when in high school I felt odd that people were getting serious threats for not saying the mantra. After a while my chorus teacher noticed my quiet protest, I was still standing respectfuly with my hand on my heart but it wasn't my country to pledge to. I was sent to the principal and had to sit in with school board officials as they determined if they could punish me or not. Being a tiny, polite british girl they found no fault in my behaviour. I was asked why I simply didn't go along with the pledge like everyone else, 'when in rome ...' was quoted and they were forced to set a precident in my case. They dejectedly conceded that my rights must be respected. Spanish inquisitioned over a brainwash mantra.
They do this pledge from toddler onward, how can you pledge to things you don't understand? And what of those who are athiest? It is a religios imposition as well as an idealogical one.

OP makes a post about the pledge of allegiance, a series of words and phrases intended as a declaration of loyalty to a flag and the nation it represents. OP points out that over time the pledge has changed to include statist and religious terminology. OP says nothing about hating America. OP says nothing about wanting people of conscious reason to stop saying the pledge if they freely choose to do so.

Replies received by OP are immediately to say he hates America and wants to ruin the nation. Wait... what? Why is that the automatic assumption?

I agree with OP and certainly don't hate or want to undermine my country, and have no issue with people saying the pledge if they so choose. Including children for that matter. If they're aware of what it is and want to say it... they can knock themselves out. What do I care? That doesn't change my opinion that before a certain age it is blatant indoctrination, however. Loving the land you live in and its positive attributes and being critical of other aspects thereof are not mutually exclusive.

It's as if there is this "brand America" that contains specific criteria. If you don't meet even one of those criteria, no matter how much you love your country and whatever other criteria you do meet, you're out of the brand. You suck, you hate America, you're unpatriotic, you're a traitor, etc. Liberty does not work that way, my friends. With all respect and decorum, I say to you: accept that not everyone who is just as American as you thinks as you do. That is a fact of life and part of the aforementioned positive attributes of our nation and society in my opinion.

Peace.

reply to post by WaterBottle


Well other than the fact that the German pledge was a pledge of loyalty to the fuhrer, a person, not a form of government or abstract ideal.

But I guess that throws a wrench into the whole spiel doesn't it? I mean, pledging allegiance to the country vs pledging allegiance to a person is quite different.

In all, a comparison of the (pre WWII) German pledge to the american pledge is really apples and oranges.

Now as for the German 'pride' argument, Germany lost their own pride not by invading other countries, but by killing their fellow countrymen in grotesque, awful ways. That's why germans aren't 'proud' to be german's anymore, at least that's what they told me.

reply to post by Hecate666


The only similarity between the german pledge and the american pledge is that they both pledge alegiance to the flag.

German:
Translation: "I promise to do my duty in love and loyalty to the Führer and our flag."

American:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one Nation, Under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

Here's the difference between healthy pride for country and what you want to make it out to be. This is the oath required to get into the German Army prior to and after august 1934:

Oath of Allegiance before August 2, 1934

“I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:I will at all times loyally and honestlyserve my people and countryand, as a brave soldier,I will be ready at any timeto stake my life for this oath.”

The Fuehrer Oath (effective August 2, 1934)

“I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:I will render unconditional obedienceto the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,and, as a brave soldier,I will be ready at any timeto stake my life for this oath.”

Liberty

reply to post by WaterBottle


Maybe not fired, but reprimanded at least, put on probation or something similar. I found out that teachers were not allowed to discuss religious or political views with students on school grounds when I was in the 8th grade, and a teacher was basically badmouthing President Bush, albeit in a tongue in cheek way. I asked him who he was going to vote for, and he said he couldn't discuss it. So, after class I asked him about it and he told me that they weren't allowed to discuss personal religious or political views in the classroom. Maybe that's just an Oklahoma thing, but I always thought it was a national law.

Originally posted by smwoop
No one is forced to do it, you even admitted it yourself saying you sat out.

Just because you're unpatriotic doesn't mean you have to ruin the pledge for everyone. Some people like to say it because maybe their family has spent years working/sacrificing to get us where we are now. You do know that America is a Christian nation don't you, hence the "Under God" part.

Then why doesn't the pledge say UNDER JESUS?
And why didnt the pledge start with UNDER GOD?
And why add UNDER GOD to exclude others that are not religious in a country that stands for religious freedom?
And what is the point of making kids say a pledge if they are supposed to grow up to be free citizens?

Originally posted by Dfairlite
reply to post by WaterBottle

 

Well other than the fact that the German pledge was a pledge of loyalty to the fuhrer, a person, not a form of government or abstract ideal.

Do you think an 8 year old can distinguish that difference?

reply to post by WaterBottle


Id consider myself a huge american patriot, soldier and I never enjoyed doing it. But I don't like anything like that...like chanting in martial arts or any kind of traditional stuff...its too "showy" for me. Its like kids praying at 5 years old. They don't really know what it means...

reply to post by region331


Absolutely. My four year old knows BHO is a bad man (he tells me all the time, and no I don't talk about BHO often in front of the kids) and he loves the USA, as well as the flag. Even at four he has separated people from ideas/ideals. An 8 year old is fully capable of the same.

At worst the pledge has kids thinking they're pledging to the country. At best the ideals of the country. I don't think kids really pay much attention to the wording, but I've NEVER heard a kid say they thought it was about the president or a person.

Much of what people view the pledge as comes from their home life, imo. If parents are always talking about the country in a statist fashion, the kids will view the pledge as a statist pledge (even if they don't know what statist is). If parents are talking about the principles of america, kids will recognize those portions of the pledge.

Some people on here want to give the 30 second pledge too much credit. That 30 seconds is easily put into perspective by a decent relationship with our children and the way we talk about our great country in front of them.