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BTW, during Jesus' ministry, Jerusalem was under direct Roman rule. If prophets were being killed there, then it would be Pontius Pilate doing it, not any Herod, who reigned elsewhere. By an amazing coincidence, Pontius Pilate's soldiers killed Jesus, according to the Christian version. Jesus' death, then, does not distinguish between "Rome" and "Jerusalem" as factors for early Christian writers. Both cities figure prominently in the Christian Passion narrative, one as place where it happened and the other as the power that made it happen there.
Some like to pin it on a jew .. a woman of course. Considering that he had just slaughtered the Jews in Khaibar, it could be.
who ruled is important but still secondary, even Bible says that Pilate was not eager to crucify Jesus pbuh.
by claiming that he is a traitor declaring himself 'King'
Pilate and Herod were also shuttling him to the other on 'technical' details. Dint seem eager to be responsible for giving the command of execution.
i'l give you that 'Rome' was the executioner, but just that.
Revelation 13:5 Then the beast was allowed to speak great blasphemies against God. And he was given authority to do whatever he wanted for forty-two months.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where God had prepared a place for her so that she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
The Huns, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Franks, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Burgundians, the Heruli, the Anglo-Saxons, and the Lombards. These divisions have ever since been spoken of as the ten kingdoms of the Roman empire.
Smith, Uriah (2012-05-26). Daniel and the Revelation (Kindle Locations 1677-1679). . Kindle Edition.
3. THE TEN DIVISIONS OF ROME.
The ten kingdoms which arose out of the old Roman empire, are symbolized by the ten horns on the fourth beast of Daniel 7. All agree on this point; but there has not been entire unanimity among expositors as to the names of the kingdoms which constituted these divisions. Some name the Huns as one of these divisions, others put the Alemanni in place of the Huns. That the reader may see the general trend of what has been written on this subject, the following facts are presented:
- Machiavelli, the historian of Florence, writing simply as a historian, names the Huns as one of the nations principally concerned in the breaking up of the Roman empire. Among those who have written on this point with reference to the prophecy, may be mentioned, Berengaud, in the ninth century; Mede, 1586- 1638; Bossuet, 1627-1704; Lloyd, 1627-1717; Sir Isaac Newton, 1642-1727; Bishop Newton, 1704-1782; Hales, ---1821: Faber, 1773-1854.
Of these nine authorities, eight take the position that the Huns were one of the ten kingdoms; of these eight, two, Bossuet and Bishop Newton, followed by Dr. Clarke, have both the Huns and the Alemanni; only one, Mede, omits the Huns and takes the Alemanni. Thus eight favor the view that the Huns were represented by one of the horns; two, while not rejecting the Huns, consider the Alemanni one of the horns; one rejects the Huns and takes the Alemanni. Scott and Barnes, in their commentaries, and Oswald, in his Kingdom That Shall Not Be Moved, name the Huns.
Smith, Uriah (2012-05-26). Daniel and the Revelation (Kindle Locations 11191-11203). . Kindle Edition.
let me put it crudely, someone who plans/plots to kill is more to blame that the bureaucratic machinery and laws used to do it.
Jesus pbuh came for the jews, they tried their best to 'do him in'
he wasnt a traitor
"if one is more responsible who would you pick?"
You, not me, introduced the idea that the New Testament falsely reports some visions, while another part which talks about visions you like better is true. You will, therefore, have to tolerate your proposal being examined, as a whole, and shown to be incoherent cherry-picking, as it is.
Then we agree that, contrary to your earlier claim, there is nothing in Revelation that says this. Thank you for your correction of your misstatement.
But, as we now agree that Jesus' remark doesn't make any unique association between Jerusalem and the death of prophets, where Mohammed died is moot.
And, although you keep trying to rule it out of bounds, it is the same controversy which you have with the epistles of Paul. Revelation presents no isolated problem in exegesis, upon which comparison with other books in the canon with prophetic and visionary form can shed no light.
The breadth of God's purposes and the many uses of inspired visions are crucial to the correct understanding of Revelation, as well as of Paul, Acts, Daniel, and other visionary material in the canon as well.
Now we will talk about the 10 horns that come out of the forth beast's head (the legs of iron) that will represent the kingdom present (feet of iron and clay) until the return of the Ancient of Days (Daniel 7:22), aka the end of time.
1. The Huns which is now called Hungary (but included parts of Germany, the Balkans and Ukraine)
2. The Visigoths which is now called Spain
3. The Franks which is now called France
4. The Sueves which is now called Portugal
5. The Burgundians which is now called Switzerland
6. The Anglo Saxons which is now called England
7. The Lombards which is now called Italy
8. The Ostrogoths
9. The Vandal
10. The Herulis
So who wants to solve the mystery first....who subdued the Ostrogoths, Vandals and Herulis...rose up as an official power after they were subdued and was different in characteristic to these civil (political) powers?
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
You are using a Catholic site promoting Catholic doctrine to say that the Catholic church is not evil and that the her doctrines are not false.
Unluckily for you I don't shirk from moronic Catholic argument ...
Are you interested to what I have to say in this regard, or will you put the blinders on as usual, spit chips ect.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
You are just insisting its the RCC, only by using speculations / interpretations and extra biblical sources.
If you were really interested in examining my proposal as a whole, then you would be going over the verses I posted in the OP which are relevant to the subject about Jerusalem being the whore.
Instead you are taking this all over the place by bringing up Paul (like as if that refutes my claim that Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon)
but it tells us about Ephesus testing and rejecting false apostles.
I didn't say I agreed. Please stop putting words into my mouth
Which is what I am doing in the OP by cross referencing the words of Jeremiah, Jesus and the author of Paul. Why don't you address that.
Last time you posted all those pictures of the scarlet / purple / gold in the vatican to prove your point about.
I countered that by showing you that those same colors are also the colors of the Jewish priesthood who Jesus condemned. So basically, the idea of Jerusalem being the whore is reinforced . You need to address that instead of posting your interpretation of Daniel.
That is but just ONE interpretation of the 10 horns. There are several others. You have just given me an opinion
You are just insisting its the RCC, only by using speculations / interpretations and extra biblical sources.
Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
Um ... no. I was showing Skorpion that much of the Catholic Church agrees with his assessment of Jerusalem being the whore of Babylon.
The information presented from the Catholic site, which was clearly labeled Catholic, is solid.
If you look at the very last line (verse 17) above, you will see that the Whore of Babylon is a “great city that has dominion over the Kings of the earth”. Now we all have to ask ourselves if the Vatican has any dominion over any Kings of the earth today.
[Speaking of the time, about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was crumbling to pieces:] "No, the [Catholic] Church will not descend into the tomb. It will survive the Empire . . . At length a second empire will arise, and of this empire the Pope will be the master--more then this, he will be the master of Europe. He will dictate his orders to kings who will obey them"--Andrea Lagarde, The Latin Church in the Middle Ages, 1915, p. vi.
"Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of the barbarous hordes, the Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection, and asked him to rule them; and thus, . . . commenced the temporal sovereignty of the popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the vicar of Christ took up the scepter to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages."--American Catholic Quarterly Review, April, 1911
Under the influence of Germanic customs and concepts, torture was little used from the 9th to the 12th centuries, but with the revival of Roman law the practice was reestablished in the 12th century... In 1252 (Pope) Innocent IV sanctioned the infliction of torture by the civil authorities upon heretics, and torture came to have a recognized place in the procedure of the inquisitional courts. -New Catholic Encyclopedia, arts. "Inquisition", "Auto-da-Fe'," and "Massacre of St Bartholomew's Day."
They [Catholics] must penetrate wherever possible in the administration of civil affairs... all Catholics should do all in their power to cause the constitution of states, and legislation to be modeled on the principles of the true Church." -Encyclical of Leo XIII
But is it the intention of the pope to possess this country? Undoubtedly. In this intention is he aided by the Jesuits and all the Catholic prelates and priests? Undoubtedly, if they are faithful to their religion.
- Catholic Professor Orestes Brownson, Brownson’s Review (January, 1854): 90
The Catholic order's place in Australian politics should not be overlooked. During the three-way Liberal leadership contest between Malcolm Turnbull, Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott, all three men consulted with Jesuit priests, said the report. source
Under the guidance and in light of Leo’s encyclical was thus evolved a truly Christian social science, which continues to be fostered and enriched daily by the tireless labours of those picked men whom we have named the auxiliaries of the Church...The doctrine of Rerum Novarum began little by little to penetrate among those who, being outside Catholic unity, do not recognize the authority of the Church; and these Catholic principles of sociology gradually became part of the intellectual heritage of the whole human race...Thus too, we rejoice that the Catholic truths proclaimed so vigorously by our illustrious Predecessor [Leo XIII in 1891’s Rerum Novarum], are advanced and advocated not merely in non-Catholic books and journals, but frequently also in legislative assemblies and in courts of justice”
...wherever the Jesuits went, they placed the worldly prosperity and the political influence of their Order above all religious considerations. In accordance with their secret policy they set themselves to gain influence at Court; and, in order to carry their point, they were willing to countenance assassination, sedition, etc.
We do not accept it [i.e., the Constitutional Republic of the United States of America], or hold it to be any government at all…If the American Republic is to be sustained and preserved at all, it must be by the rejection of the principle of the [Protestant] Reformation, and the acceptance of the Catholic principle...
...the Papacy, despite its “ecumenical rhetoric”, has not changed a bit over the many centuries in the following categories:
* Its deep hatred of Jews, all independent Bible-believing Christians, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians (as recently as the 1940s we find Roman Catholic Ustashi military units in Croatia, led and urged on by Franciscan priests, monks, and friars, slaughtering from 600,000 to one million innocent Serb Orthodox Christian men, women, elderly, and children – many of the victims being first brutally tortured);
* Its long-held dream to bring all Christians under its monopolistic, totalitarian, ecclesiastical control;
* Its long-held dream to head up a totalitarian one-world religious organization; and,
* Its long-held dream to bring all world leaders – especially those in “Christian” countries – under the temporal power of the pope.
Those bloody and anti-social laws of Rome, after having covered Europe with ruins, tears and blood, for ten centuries, have crossed the oceans to continue their work of slavery and desolation, blood and tears, ignorance and demoralization, on this continent. Under the mask and name of Democracy, they have raised the standard of rebellion of the South against the North, and caused more than a half million of the most heroic sons of America to fall on the fields of carnage.
In a very near future, if God does not miraculously prevent it, those laws of dark deeds and blood will cause the prosperity, the rights, the education, and the liberties of this too confident nation, to be buried under a mountain of smoking and bloody ruins. On the top of that mountain, Rome will raise her throne and plant her victorious banners.
Then she will sing her Te Deums and shout her shouts of joy, as she did, when she heard the lamentations and cries of desolation of the millions of martyrs burning in the five thousand auto-da-fes she had raised in all the capitals and great cities of Europe.
- Charles Chiniquy, Fifty Years in the Church of Rome (Chicago: Adam Craig, 1889): p.687
Finally, Let all with such artfulness gain the ascendant over princes, noblemen, and the magistrates of every place, that they may be ready at our beck, even to sacrifice their nearest relations and most intimate friends, when we say it is for our interest and advantage
-Ignatius Loyola (1540), as quoted in W. C. Brownlee, Secret Instructions of the Jesuits (New York: American and Foreign Christian Union, 1857): p.47
At what then do the Jesuits aim? According to them, they only seek the greater glory of God; but if you examine the facts you will find that they aim at universal dominion alone. They have rendered themselves indispensable to the Pope, who, without them, could not exist, because Catholicism is identified with them. They have rendered themselves indispensable to governors and hold revolutions in their hands; and in this way, either under one name or another, it is they who rule the world
- Luigi De Sanctis, Maria Betts (trans.), Popery, Puseyism and Jesuitism (London: D. Catt, 1905): 139.
The Jacobins currently terrorizing France, Barruel argued in his preface, could not have appeared out of thin air...The principal authors of the conspiracy, he claimed, were Voltaire, Jean-le-Rond d'Alembert, and King Frederick of Prussia, who had secretly planned to destroy Christianity...These "sophists" had formed an alliance with the Freemasons, whose antireligious conspirital origins Barruel traced back to the medieval Knights Templars. The final and most utterly evil group in this triple conspiracy, however, were the Bavarian Illuminati, under their satanic leader Adam Weishaupt. Jacobinism had emerged out of the union of these three groups.
- Richard Levy (ed), Antisemitism: A historical encyclopedia of prejudice and persecution volume 1 (ABC-CLIO, 2005): 456.
In 1941, Adolf Hitler put the Ustasha into power, in compliance with the Vatican-Third Reich Concordat, of July 20, 1933. Under that Concordat Dr. Ante Pavelic, the dictator of Croatia—with the direct aid of the Archbishop of Zagreb Cardinal Alojzije Stepinac—instructed the Ustasha to implement a program of forced “conversion” of the Croatia population to Catholicism: 840,000 people were murdered when they refused to become Roman Catholics.
- P. D. Stuart, Codeword Barbêlôn: Danger in the Vatican (London: Lux Verbi, 2008):197.
It was a priest, Father Staempfle, not Hitler, who really wrote Mein Kampf.
- L. H. Lehmann, Behind the Dictators: A Factual Analysis of the Relationship of Nazi-Fascism and Roman Catholicism (1942): 26.
I learned much from the order of the Jesuits...Until now there has never been anything more grandiose, on the earth, than the hierarchical system of the catholic church. I transferred much of this organization into my own party.
- Hermann Rauschning, former national-socialist chief of the Government of Dantzig: "Hitler m'a dit," Paris, 1939, pp.266. 267
The Third Reich is the first world power which not only acknowledges but also puts into practice the high principles of the papacy
- Franz von Papen, as quoted in Robert d’Harcourt, Franz von Papen l’homme à tout faire," (L’Aube, October 3, 1946).
Why were Hitler’s closest advisers Jesuits? Why did Mr. Hitler admire and copy the Jesuits? Are these just mere coincidences? Or are we once again seeing the Jesuits playing the chameleon, and eclipsing the wiles of Ovid?
...let us not mince words here, Hitler, the faithful “son of the Catholic Church,” was the Pope’s Malleus Papa—his hammer.
- P. D. Stuart, Codeword Barbêlôn: Danger in the Vatican (London: Lux Verbi, 2008): 202.
The author undertakes to show – that a conspiracy against the liberties of this Republic is now in full action, under the direction of the wily Prince Metternich of Austria, who knowing the impossibility of obliterating this troublesome example of a great and free nation by force of arms, is attempting to accomplish his object through the agency of an army of Jesuits. The array of facts and arguments going to prove the existence of such a conspiracy, will astonish any man who opens the book with the same incredulity as we did.
- Samuel Morse, Foreign Conspiracy Against the Liberties of the United States volume 1 (Boston, Massachusetts: Crocker & Brewster, 1835): iv.
The Protestants of both the North and South would surely unite to exterminate the priests and the Jesuits, if they could learn how the priests, the nuns, and the monks, which daily land on our shores, under the pretext of preaching their religion...are nothing else but the emissaries of the Pope, of Napoleon III, and the other despots of Europe, to undermine our institutions, alienate the hearts of our people from our constitution, and our laws, destroy our schools, and prepare a reign of anarchy here as they have done in Ireland, in Mexico, in Spain, and wherever there are any people who want to be free.
Abraham Lincoln, as quoted in Charles Chiniquy, Fifty Years in the Church of Rome(Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1968): 499.
It is my opinion that if the liberties of this country the United States of America are destroyed, it will be by the subtlety of the Roman Catholic Jesuit priests, for they are the most crafty, dangerous enemies to civil and religious liberty. They have instigated most of the wars of Europe.
- Father Jeremiah Crowley, Romanism: A Menace to the Nation (Wheaton Illinois: Jeremiah Crowley, 1912): 139-140.
So which city is John talking about anyway? The 7 mountains that the Whore sits on with the 7 Kings gives us a clue. The Vatican does not sit on one of the 7 hills of Rome,
You can't argue the facts presented.
That certainly is the anti-Semitic reading of the New Testament.
Jesus was killed as a non-resident
nuisance in a zone under military
Jesus' death stretched out for hours
rather than minutes is 100% Roman,
in my opinion.
Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
In 1931, Pope Pius XI explained this initiative in his encyclical Quadragesimo Anno:
Catholic World (August 1871):
Darryl Eberhart, "The Papacy's Hatred of Liberty,"
Charles Chiniquy, a former Catholic priest
- Luigi De Sanctis, Maria Betts (trans.), Popery, Puseyism and Jesuitism (London: D. Catt, 1905):
Jesuit Professor of Cannon Law Adam Weishaupt created the Order of the Illuminati in 1776 in Bavaria, Germany.
It was a priest, Father Staempfle, not Hitler, who really wrote Mein Kampf.
Franz von Papen, Vice-Chancellor of the Reich, said:
In 2001 the Bush-appointed US ambassador to the Vatican declared that the, "values of [the Bush] Administration and those of the Vatican line up hand in glove." - Inside the Vatican (December 2002): 25.
Why were Hitler’s closest advisers Jesuits?
Hitler, the faithful “son of the Catholic Church,”.
The father of Morse Code, Samuel Morse:
President Abraham Lincoln said:
French General Marquis de Lafayette said:
Father Jeremiah Crowley, Romanism: A Menace to the Nation
Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7
As you say .. he laid seige to it. He took it over. He forced the survivors to pay tribute. OF COURSE there would be hard feelings. He's a military conquerer. So IF the woman poisoned him .. IF ... she most likely did so because of what he did to her people. He didn't exactly 'live and let live' .. ya 'know??
Long before the time of the Prophet of
Islam, the valley of Khyber and other
valleys in its north and south, were
colonized by the Jews. As noted
before, these Jews were not only the
best farmers of the country, they were also its leaders in industry and
business, and they enjoyed a
monopoly of the armaments industry. In the times of the Prophet, the best
arsenals of Arabia were all in Khyber.
Those Jews who had been banished
from Medina, had also resettled in
Khyber, and they were noted for their
skills in metallurgy. Betty Kelen The Qaynuqa were banished from
Medina. Chiefly they were
metalworkers, having learned the art
of beating out the splendid shining
armor, the moon-curved swords and
sun-catching helmets that glorified warfare in the desert. They made fine
bronze armor, beaten and burnished,
with helmets to match and gleaming
swords whose swift cut could make
the very air whistle. (Muhammad – the
Messenger of God) The Jews of Khyber also heard about
the Treaty of Hudaybiyya and its terms.
Just as the Quraysh in Makkah and
Umar bin al-Khattab and some other
"hawks" among the Muslims in Medina
had interpreted the treaty as the "surrender" of the Muslims, so also did
the Jews of Khyber consider it a
symptom of the incipient decline of the
power of the State of Medina. Banking
on this theory of "decline," they began
to instigate the Arab tribes between Khyber and Medina to attack the
Muslims. One of these tribes was the
Ghatafan, the allies of the Jews of
Khyber. They began to send their raiding
expeditions into the pastures around
Medina. One of these pastures
belonged to the Prophet himself. On
one occasion, the son of Abu Dharr el-
Ghiffari was grazing the camels of the Prophet when the Ghatafan struck.
They killed him, and captured his
mother who was with him, and they
drove with them the herd of camels.
The Muslims, however, were able, just
in time, to overtake the marauders and to rescue the wife of Abu Dharr el-
Ghiffari. Muhammad decided to put an end to
these gratuitous provocation. He
thought that it would not be prudent
to wait until the Jews and their allies
laid another siege to Medina, and that
it would be better to forestall them. He, therefore, ordered the Muslims to
mobilize, and to march on Khyber.
Originally posted by logical7
well if in the event of a muslim army of 1400-1600 laying siege to a fortress with more than army of 10,000 the muslims still seem the agressors to you then so be it.