The Bible identifies the whore of Babylon as Jerusalem., page 3

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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To understand the time period that we are talking about, the whore of Babylon riding the beast from the sea for 1260 prophetic days before symbolically dying and being revived again to pursue her end game agenda of making the world submit their worship and allegiance, in mind or action, to the image of the beast we need to use the book of Daniel to show us when this power would arise.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that liveth forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things

In Daniel 7, as Gabriel interprets the dream for Daniel, we see this 'time, times and the dividing of time' reference made when talking about this 'little horn' that is introduced to us in Daniel 7:8. Daniel 12:7 uses this same time period and says that it is a man which was upon the waters of the river (drawing a link to beast from the sea). How we can draw the conclusion that the whore of Babylon is related to this little horn and man on the waters is the following verse.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

some additional explanations of 1260 prophetic days, 42 months and time times and a half

Now that we have established the link we can analyse Daniel chapter 2, 7 and 8.

Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a statue/image of with:
- head of gold
- chest and arms of silver
- belly and thighs of bronze
- legs of iron
- feet partly of iron and partly of clay

In Daniel 2:38 Daniel tells the Babylonian king that he is represented as the head of gold. He then proceeds to tell of kingdoms that would arise after successively after Babylon that will rule over the earth.

The historical interpretation of this is:

Historicist interpretation

The following view has traditionally been more prevalent among Christian scholars:
Head of gold - Babylon
Breast and arms of silver- Medo-Persia
Belly and thighs of brass- Hellenistic Greece
Legs of iron - Rome
Feet partly of iron and partly of molded clay - The divided Roman Empire
wiki

In Daniel 7 now it talks about 4 beasts:
- a lion with two wings (Dan. 7:4)
- a bear raised up on one side with 3 ribs between its mouth (Dan. 7:5)
- leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads (Dan. 7:6)
- a dreadful beast with iron teeth, trampling to pieces everything (Dan. 7:7)
. We know that these 4 beasts can be linked to the kingdoms that would arise from Daniel 2's image because of this verse.

Daniel 7:23 So he said: 'The fourth animal will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, different from all the kingdoms. It will devour the entire earth, trampling it down and crushing it.

We also note the iron legs links with the iron teeth.

And we know it is referring to the kingdom of Rome designated as the legs of iron because of the matching descriptions:

Daniel 2:40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom, as strong as iron. Just as all things are broken to pieces and shattered by iron, so it will shatter and crush everything.

In Daniel 8 we read about 'a Ram with 2 horns, one higher than the other and the higher one came up last' (Dan. 8:3). Angel Gabriel interprets this for Daniel and says:

Daniel 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.

The male goat that is next described, which had a notable horn between the eyes (Alexander the Great, verse.5). In verse 8 we read the large horn was broken (the death of Alexander) and in its place 4 notable horns came up (the 4 generals that I have mentioned in a previous post). We confirm this analysis with Gabriel's interpretation:

Daniel 8:21 The hairy male goat is the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is its first king.

Now I could outline all the symbolic imagery for you if you desire but I would like to move on and begin talking about the 10 horns that came out of the 4th beast of Daniel 7 corresponding to the kingdom of Rome so we can start talking about the little horn that rose from amongst them and is the same as the beast the whore of Babylon rides.

I will address some of your concerns made in your most recent reply to me when the timing angle has been properly established. Can you see though from this post the link made between the powers mentioned in specific parts of Daniel and Revelation, specifically in this instance the length of period of its initial rule.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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but I would like to move on and begin talking about the 10 horns that came out of the 4th beast of Daniel 7 corresponding to the kingdom of Rome

I do appreciate the time and effort you put into your threads and post.
However, none of what you are saying addresses what I mentioned in my reply to you, where I addressed certain things you said. Now, you are just going on about your own interpretations of Daniel, which is not what this thread is about. I am being extremely specific about the subject matter of this thread... i.e - the reasons why Jerusalem is the whore.

You should actually start a thread explaining your understanding of Daniel.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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Skorpion, the link is made of the time period of the rulership of this oppressive power of Revelation with prophetic descriptions in Daniel. We know that there must be some cross over of the 2 prophecy books mentioned because Daniel's prophecies about times and kingdoms extends all the way to the return of the Ancient of Days (i.e return of Jesus, Daniel 2:44, Daniel 7:13). I have made the link of where the cross over between the two books exists. You can either accept it or not but if you want to use the Christian Bible to identifying the whore you need to use all the tools available to you, especially the ones that cross over on the same time period mention (i.e extending all the way to the end of time).

I agree that Jesus declared Jerusalem a killer of prophets. The description in Revelation is not prophets but saints and holy men. There is nothing like the blood-lust shown by the papacy having Christians and Christian leaders killed in all of history (I will show this in future posts).

Daniel maybe a separate prophetic document but it the descriptions of the Beast of the sea in Revelation 13 uses the same symbols as the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 and Daniel 7 and 2 cover up to the same time period as Revelation 13, all the way up to the return of Jesus.

Scarlet and gold simply represents the opulence of the whore.

This is what 'arrayed in purple and scarlet' actually looks like







Now some adorned with gold and precious stones






purple, scalet, gold and precious stones oh my!


Golden Cup

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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Yep .. it was just a matter of time before you did that. Dude ... your Seventh Day Adventist agenda is clouding your judgment. The Vatican isn't on 7 hills. It simply is not. Your agenda driven theory is a square peg trying to be fit in a round hole. It doesn't work.

Rome? Yes. 7 Hills and the blood of innocents shed.
Jerusalem? Yes. 7 Hills and the blood of innocents shed.
Tehran? Yes. 7 Hills and the blood of innocents shed.
Yonkers, NYC? Yes. 7 Hills ...
Mecca? Sorta (surrounded by 7 hills, but not on them)

The Catholic Church and/or The Vatican? No. Not on 7 hills.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Well ... MAYBE he was poisoned by a Jewish woman. It's very unclear how Muhammad died.

You say "maybe" here.... but its on record that you starred and flagged a certain thread mocking Mohammads death because it was ultimately caused by a Jewish woman.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Im doing so, you established that you are on the side of the same people who killed the prophets.

And to top it off, you even insult Abraham and Moses in your threads and posts.

As for killers of prophets ... the Jews killed prophets .. so did the Muslims .. so did the Christians. All three have blood on their hands and in their soil.

Yet, Jesus only accused the Jews of having the blood of prophets on their hands.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

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This is what 'arrayed in purple and scarlet actually looks like

....

If you are going to be so hung up on colors....then you need to deal with the colors of Jewish priesthood as defined by the Bible.

I will just quote from the Bible and reveal to you the colors that represent Jewish priesthood.


Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.
“Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen—the work of skilled hands. It is to have two shoulder pieces attached to two of its corners, so it can be fastened. Its skillfully woven waistband is to be like it—of one piece with the ephod and made with gold, and with blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and with finely twisted linen.
-Exodus 28:5-8

“Fashion a breastpiece for making decisions—the work of skilled hands. Make it like the ephod: of gold, and of blue, purple
-Exodus 28:15

Make pomegranates of blue, purple and scarlet yarn around the hem of the robe, with gold bells between them
-Exodus 28:33

www.biblegateway.com...

Gold = mentioned 16 times
Purple = mentioned 5 times
Scarlet = mentioned 5 times

So what now, Jesuitgarlic?

The Roman Catholic church may be using the colors purple and scarlet.... but they weren't exactly accused of being prophet killers... neither are they located on 7 hills.

However, Jerusalem / the Jews not only are biblically associated with scarlet, purple and gold.... but also have been accused of being prophet killers and happens to be located on 7 hills.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Because there were not any Christians or Muslims around then.
Comeon .. that's a major DUH.

Were there Christians when Paul was around?

Because he too accused Jews of being prophet killers.

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
-1Thesalonians 2:14-15


I have no idea whats going on, but everyone from Jeremiah to Jesus to Paul to the author of Revelations....called them prophet killers.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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Oh and btw ... Muhammad made himself a legitimate military target. He orchestrated the mass murder of many people and he arranged for the individual murders of others. He was in charge and took lands and goods and properties from innocent people. He made himself a military leader and therefore, those he fought against, would have been justified in trying to kill him. IF a Jewish person killed Muhammad .. they were engaged in self defense by killing a military leader who was butchering them .. they weren't killing a 'prophet'.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Because they were the major religion of the time in that area. There were no muslims. The Christians at that time were the ones being killed off and they hadn't started their own killing spree yet.

How many Biblical prophets did Muslims kill off?
Zero.

How many prophets of Islam were caused to die by Jews?

reply to post by FlyersFan

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No. Scarlet and gold and purple are representing the opulence of the whore. It can also represent royalty.

I don't see how scarlet (red) is referencing opulence. I see that scarlet is referencing in the symbolic form blood, oppression and sin.

If it was meant to be literal descriptor FF then how should the passage in question be written?

4 And [2532] the woman [1135] was arrayed [4016] [5772] in purple [4209] and [2532] scarlet colour [2847], and [2532] decked [5558] [5772] with gold [5557] and [2532] precious [5093] stones [3037] and [2532] pearls [3135], having [2192] [5723] a golden [5552] cup [4221] in [1722] her [0848] hand [5495] full of [1073] [5723] abominations [0946] and [2532] filthiness [0168] of her [0848] fornication [4202]:
source

4016. περιβάλλω peribállō per-ee-bal'-lo from 4012 and 906; to throw all around, i.e. invest (with a palisade or with clothing):--array, cast about, clothe(-d me), put on.

Strong, James (2011-05-07). Strong's Greek Dictionary of the Bible (with beautiful Greek, transliteration, and superior navigation) (Strong's Dictionary) (Kindle Locations 6556-6558). Miklal Software Solutions, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

We can see this word could be translated as arrayed, clothed, or put on

4209. πορφύρα porphýra por-foo'-rah of Latin origin; the "purple" mussel, i.e. (by implication) the red-blue color itself, and finally a garment dyed with it:--purple. 4210. πορφυροῦς porphyroûs por-foo-rooce' from 4209; purpureal, i.e. bluish red:--purple.

Strong, James (2011-05-07). Strong's Greek Dictionary of the Bible (with beautiful Greek, transliteration, and superior navigation) (Strong's Dictionary) (Kindle Locations 6900-6902). Miklal Software Solutions, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

We see the word for purple to be #G4209 the red-blue colour itself or a garment dyed with purple
If you FF (and skorpion) were to be correct that the purple was symbolic of opulence and royalty I think the better word to use was #G4210 simply meaning purple (bluish red)

For scarlet,

2847. κόκκινος kókkinos kok'-kee-nos from 2848 (from the kernel-shape of the insect); crimson-colored:--scarlet (colour, coloured).

Strong, James (2011-05-07). Strong's Greek Dictionary of the Bible (with beautiful Greek, transliteration, and superior navigation) (Strong's Dictionary) (Kindle Locations 4777-4779). Miklal Software Solutions, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Once again we see the word definition suggesting something is literally of that colour
-------------------------------

The Vatican isn't on 7 hills. It simply is not. Your agenda driven theory is a square peg trying to be fit in a round hole. It doesn't work.

Rev. 17:9 And here [5602] [is] the mind [3563] which [3588] hath [2192] [5723] wisdom [4678]. The seven [2033] heads [2776] are [1526] [5748] seven [2033] mountains [3735], on [1909] which [0846] the woman [1135] sitteth [2521] [5736] [3699] source

2521. κάθημαι káthēmai kath'-ay-mahee from 2596; and ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476); to sit down; figuratively, to remain, reside:--dwell, sit (by, down).

Strong, James (2011-05-07). Strong's Greek Dictionary of the Bible (with beautiful Greek, transliteration, and superior navigation) (Strong's Dictionary) (Kindle Locations 4240-4243). Miklal Software Solutions, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

You suggest it means 'sits on', unfortunately for your agenda the words meaning includes: remains by, resides by

3699. ὅπου hópou hop'-oo from 3739 and 4225; what(-ever) where, i.e. at whichever spot:--in what place, where(-as, -soever), whither (+ soever).

Strong, James (2011-05-07). Strong's Greek Dictionary of the Bible (with beautiful Greek, transliteration, and superior navigation) (Strong's Dictionary) (Kindle Locations 5978-5979). Miklal Software Solutions, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

So put that together we have a woman (which represents a church) in a spot/place residing by 7 moutains/hills

Does the Vatican (Roman Church) reside by a place where there is 7 hills. YES

Your suggestions against what I have to say FF imply that you either haven't studied this clearly (most likely the case) or you are just here to make sure the Vatican you identify with isn't fingered at any cost

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

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So what now, Jesuitgarlic?

I will say good find Skorpion! That information helps your case and it is something I had not thought about before. The colour blue stuffs up the clear link but good info nonetheless. Go the Jewish priests still parade around in such clothing or has it changed.

You have to admit though skorpion, the literal translation that I suggest is being referenced here in my reply to FF is easily demonstrated to be the Vatican as well. Is there anything about a golden cup in those writings in Exodus?

Please read my last post to FF, I show the verse is not referring to a city/church ON 7 hills by that the verse says that it RESIDES BY 7 hills. Meaning the Vatican is not discounted by this factor

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
I don't see how scarlet (red) is referencing opulence. I see that scarlet is referencing in the symbolic form blood, oppression and sin.

Red CAN be blood. The red that the cardinals wear are to represent the blood that they are willing to shed in order to protect, what they call, the true faith. That's the purpose of their red robes.

You suggest it means 'sits on', unfortunately for your agenda the words meaning includes: remains by, resides by

I don't have an agenda. (Unlike YOU who admits to an anti-catholic Seventh Day Adventist agenda) And the wording says 'sits ON' .. not 'sits BY'. Nice try though ...

So put that together we have a woman (which represents a church) in a spot/place residing by 7 moutains/hills

YOU say it represents a church. That is NOT what a vast majority of Christians have concluded the meaning is. Cities, in that time period, are spoken of as being female. And it is NOT 'residing by' .. it is 'residing ON'. It's just that simple.

you are just here to make sure the Vatican you identify with isn't fingered at any cost

I don't 'identify with the Vatican'. If you bothered to check my posting history, you'd see that very clearly. I'm just stating facts. Facts that don't match your Seventh Day Adventist interpretation. It's just that simple.


From the Catholic Bible 101 - Backs up Skorpions Theory on Jerusalem being 'The Whore'

the Whore of Babylon is a “great city that has dominion over the Kings of the earth”. Now we all have to ask ourselves if the Vatican has any dominion over any Kings of the earth today. Well there aren’t that many Kings around anymore, for one thing, and even if you transpose the word “president” for “king”, it’s laughable to say that the Vatican has dominion over any president or ruler of a country today, with all of the legalized abortion, contraception, divorce and remarriage, etc., that is going on in most countries today. And in countries that do have Kings, like Saudi Arabia, certainly the Vatican has zero dominion over Muslim countries.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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And the wording says 'sits ON' .. not 'sits BY'. Nice try though ...

FF I didn't realise you were hard of seeing

2521. κάθημαι káthēmai kath'-ay-mahee from 2596; and ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476); to sit down; figuratively, to remain, reside:--dwell, sit (by, down).

I am translating the the english word they have used 'sitteth'

using the original greek meaning the verse should be translated

Rev 13:9 "...The seven heads are seven mountains/hills, on which the woman 'resides by'

There is no 'ON' in the english dictionary definition of the original Greek...sorry that is willful blindness
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YOU say it represents a church. That is NOT what a vast majority of Christians have concluded the meaning is.

You are correct about one thing. I say it represent a church as I have not YET shown the symbolism link and how it is implied by other factors.

Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

We see this 'woman', God's anointed 'daughter of Zion' is not contained to a city (fixed location) as an order is given for her to 'go forth out of the city'...in this case of symbolism this 'daughter' associated with being of God resembles a group of faithful people.

Isaiah 62:11, 12 Behold, the LORD has proclaimed unto the ends of the earth, Say you to the daughter of Zion, Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and you shall be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Daughter of Zion = the holy people, the redeemed of the LORD or a city not forsaken

Zephaniah 3:12-15 But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD. 13 The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid."

14 Sing, O Daughter of Zion; shout aloud, O Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, O Daughter of Jerusalem! 15 The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy. The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm

Talking about this anointed woman of God again, this 'Daughter of Zion/Jerusalem', Zephaniah likens this to a faithful remnant group of people that are saved in their LORD.

The references I have presented suggest a faithful remnant group of people with some possibility of a non-specific city association as well.

In Revelation 12 we read about a designated woman of God. We see in verses 4 and 5 that this woman bears a Child we would recognize to be Jesus. We see her have to flee into the wilderness (go into hiding or under official State oppression) for this 1260 prophetic day period (v.6). In verse 13, the next mention of the woman, we see that she is being persecuted by the dragon now but when she flees to the wilderness for 'time, times and a half' (v.14) that she is taken care of. The offspring of the woman are described as 'who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus' (v.17).

So what do we learn about the faithful women of Revelation, the counterpoint to the whore of Babylon?
Jesus is born from in among His faithful people (Mary and Joseph). The city he was born in, Bethlehem, is of no significance to the woman's attributes in this instance. Future faithful people are described as keeping the commandments and having the testimony of Jesus (where the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy Rev. 19:10)

I will put it to you FF that saying prophetic books like Revelation are HOOYEE, irrelevant or not a real vision is not a good position to be taking if you want to be counted among God's faithful remnant. Same thing goes for not respecting God's commandments, ALL of them (even the one erased on idols/icons/images/statues).

So the counterpart woman of Revelation 17, the one that is unfaithful would be described or best associated with a group of people that have doctrines (wine) not inline with God's teachings and Law, possibly coming from a non-descript city. Is that a reasonably fair assessment?

To me that sounds like a Christian church denomination, and seeing that it is called a 'Mother of Harlots' we should look to find a church that consider themselves a mother not a daughter, and one that has spurned many false daughter denominations as well.

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