The Bible identifies the whore of Babylon as Jerusalem.

I am making a separate thread explaining how Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon, because the other thread on the same subject is flooded with anti-Catholic propaganda.

1. Introduction to the whore
The book of revelation is known to contain a lot of symbolic imagery. One of these symbols happens to be a "whore", adorned in scarlet and gold. She is depicted as sitting on a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (the same as the beast from the earth) and is drunk with the blood of saints and prophets. In the same chapter we also read that the seven horns represent seven hills, and towards the end of the chapter, the whore is revealed to be a city. Bear in mind this imagery, as we will be going over them one by one.


2. Using the Bible to identity of the whore
A lot of Christians identify the "whore" or the city as being related to the Vatican city or Catholicism. This is a falsehood perpetrated by those with an anti-Catholic bias. I am not defending the Catholic church, but the claim that the "whore" is the Vatican is simply not in line with what the Bible teaches.

Anybody who is serious about deciphering the Biblical concept of the "whore" needs to use the Bible as a guide... not their own imaginations and biases. Going by the verses in revelations 17:18, we know that the whore represents a certain city. This city can be profiled as having the following traits:
a) Has the blood of saints and holy men
b) Sits on seven hills
c) Adorned in scarlet and gold / killed by her lovers

The key to Biblically identifying the whore is to pinpoint exactly what city in the Bible matches all of the whores traits. Upon reading the Bible, we learn that there is only one entity in the entire Bible that matches up to the whores description. Jerusalem.

If we were to go over the whores traits and compare it to Jerusalem, we see that :

a) Jerusalem - killer of saints and holy men
Jesus himself said of Jerusalem...

Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets
-Matthew 23:29-31

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
-Matthew 23:35

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you,
-Matthew 23:37

Only Jerusalem is accused of the same crime as the whore... of having spilled the blood of holy men and saints. This alone should be enough to establish the identity of the whore as Jerusalem.

b) Jerusalem - a city on seven hills.
Jerusalem makes the list of List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills

- The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus (Hill One)
- The middle summit (hill) was called Nob (Hill Two)
- The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" (Hill Three)
- On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" (Hill Four)
- The "Ophel Mount" (Hill Five)
- To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built (Hill Six),
- The southwest hill itself (Hill Seven)

c) Jerusalem - Adorned in scarlet and gold / Killed by her lovers
Again, only Jerusalem is described in the Bible as being adorned in scarlet and gold. We read in Jeremiah:

And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate yourself with ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful; Your lovers despise you; They seek your life. I hear a cry as of a woman in labor, a groan as of one bearing her first child-the cry of the Daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands and saying, "Alas! I am fainting; my life is given over to murderers."
-Jeremiah 4:30-31

Now compare that verse with these ones in Revelations...

And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality
– Revelation 17:4

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
– Revelations 17:16


"Daughter of zion" is a clear reference to Jerusalem. Just like the whore, she too is described as being adorned in scarlet and gold. And just like the whore, her former lovers turn against her and kill her. The whores is also destroyed by the 10 horns, who are revealed as kings and her former lovers in Revelations 17:2.

Several times im the bible, explicit sexual imagery has been used to describe Jerusalem / Israel's unfaithfulness. Off the top of my head, 2 entire chapters in the book of Ezekiel describe Israel as a "prostitute". Ezekiel 16 and Ezekiel 23


3. Jerusalem, also known as Sodom and Egypt.
Another important point to note is that Revelations 17 ends with the destruction of the whore and the very next chapter details the destruction of a city, Babylon. To put it simply, Jerusalem is the whore... the whore is Babylon, the city that is to be destroyed. The fact that Jerusalem is equated with Babylon is no surprise, considering in Revelations 11:8, Jerusalem is equated to Sodom and Egypt.

We see that the descriptions of Jerusalem perfectly matches that of the whore. It is established that Jerusalem, and no other, is the whore of Revelations 17. Those who insist its the Vatican are either deluded or willfully deny whats there in their own Bibles.


4. Jerusalem - city of sin
Now that it has been biblically established that Jerusalem is the whore of revelations, lets look at the moral state of Jerusalem, the way it is today. For starters, modern day Jerusalem (or Israel for that matter) is not exactly the holy and God fearing Israel, as many Christians falsely assume. Instead, Israel is a hub for gay tourism, with gay pride parades taking place even in Jerusalem, where Jesus and the prophets once walked.

Prostitution is also rampant. Israel reportedly has one of the highest rates of prostitution in the world, with the sex trade raking in nearly $2 Billion a year. Furthermore, adding Israels wickedness, Jesus, the central figure of the Christian religion... is also mocked on national TV. So with all this open homosexuality, prostitution and insulting of Jesus going on... Do Christians really believe that this is the Israel that was prophesied to emerge in the holy land?

Something for pro-Isaeli Christians to ponder over.

I would also like to post this screenshot I took while researching for this thread.



Its interesting how an ad calling for Christians to unite and defend Israel is placed right above a chapter where a prophet is called to confront Jerusalem for its detestable practices

Is it a sign or just amazing irony?

I learned prophecy in the Seventh-Day Adventist church, one of the biggest RCC-bashers around. They taught, of course, that the whore of Babylon was Rome. You are correct, they are wrong. It will not surprise you to hear me say that the SDA organization is pro-ZOG.

Scorpie

The problem with Revelation is that it was written for an audience that would get the cloudy references more quickly than other contemporary readers. With the passage of time, predictably, the references get worse than cloudy, for all surviving readers.

Cities are typically located near water, and water seeks its own level, which is to say, low land. The city itself is typically located on high ground, because people like to keep their feet dry. One common way to arrange higher ground surrounding lower ground is hills.

So, cities located on hills are ordinary and usual human phenomena. Rome, Jerusalem, ..., San Francisco, Aukland, ..., Boston before they knocked down all but one of the hills to fill in the bay, ... if it's hills you want, then cities with hills are easily found.

Seven is a good number, and people have a way of finding seven when there are five to nine candidates, by making "twin peaks" into one hill or three hills, as the counting demands. The attraction of seven is obscure, but enduring. (So, for example, Isaac Newton claimed to have resolved indigo between blue and violet, so as to have seven spectral colors. Um, sure.)

So, which city did "John" have in mind? The text won't help; the city was ideintified sufficiently to communicate with the intended audience, and no more than that, to avoid eavesdroppers from deciphering the message. You are an eavesdropper, so you have to reverse engineer what city suits the author's purpose, based on information outside the text.

The usual non-Fundamentalist-Protestant gloss is that Revelation is a complaint and revenge fantasy about a then-current persecution, and was written too late for the persecutors to be Jews living in Jerusalem. Romans are the obvious candidates, and it is possible that an Imperial effort to impose their postwar "Jewish Tax" on Gentile Christians would be perceived by the Gentiles who were Jews for tax purposes as a "persecution."

A Roman target would also explain the effort to cloak the message, since Romans would plausibly be delighted to flay alive anybody found in possession of subversive literature. There's little or nothing in the records of Jewish-Christian relations that suggests any Jewish interest in Chriistian correspondence. That most of the "encoding" is based on the Hebrew Bible further points to a pagan target. The message simply isn't all that obscure to a Jewish reader.

All in all, then, I think the intended reference is Rome. That is pointless to say in the other thread, because the dominant theory there is not Rome, with its plural hills, but Vatican City, with about 50 meters worth of "hill," which didn't exist as a separate entity until the Twentieth Century. Then again, that thread thinks Revlation is about the author's future, rather than the author's present. There is no evidence for that, to say the least.

The Bible is ripped off of Sumerian Text.

Its irrelevant what it says.

reply to post by eight bits

All in all, then, I think the intended reference is Rome.

Hi.
I'll believe its Rome when you show me the verse where Jesus accused Rome of spilling the blood of prophets. Upon reading the Bible you will find that Jesus accused Jerusalem of spilling holy blood... just like the whore of Revelations 17.

So, cities located on hills are ordinary and usual human phenomena. Rome, Jerusalem, ..., San Francisco, Aukland, ..., Boston before they knocked down all but one of the hills to fill in the bay, ... if it's hills you want, then cities with hills are easily found.

Those cities weren't accused of spilling the blood of holy men and saints.

The problem with Revelation is that it was written for an audience that would get the cloudy references more quickly than other contemporary readers.

My audience happens to be Bible reading Christians who believe the whore is Rome.

SKORPION brought to light a good point. I know he already posted this info on the other thread in the main part of the boards, but it was worthy of reposting for further discussion ....

Jerusalem, including the Dome of the Rock and the Western Wall, sit on part of the seven hills of Jerusalem.

Mecca is surrounded by (not built on) seven hills.

Tehran Iran is built on seven hills.

Amman Jordan, Athens Greece, Istanbul Turkey, Staten Island New York (with the Statue of Liberty), Yonkers NYC .... List of Cities Claiming to be on Seven Hills .. all seven hills.

But the Vatican does NOT sit on seven hills.

John was a man who was steeped in religion his whole life. He survived assassination attempts because of religion. He lived during a time when ROME was the great enemy. He was very old .. living a stressful life ... stuck in exile .. stressed out from everything ... probably not in good health. Even scripture scholars don't know if he was having true visions from God or if it was just dementia driven delusions that were full of religious imagry because that is what his life was full of. The early church completely denied that 'Revelations' was anything worthy of the bible.

John, like most Christians of that time period, thought Jesus would return very soon. Within the lifetime of John himself. Considering that Rome was the enemy at the time, and Jerusalem was a holy place to John, I'm thinking the 'whore of Babylon' in his 'dreams' was Rome.

One guess is as good as another.
In the end, it doesn't matter. Revelations (apocolypse) has nothing to do with salvation.

But like I said .. SKORPION brought up an interesting point. Most fundamentalists point at the Vatican as the city on 7 hills .. even though it's not. Or others say 'Rome'. But there are MANY cities that are on 7 hills and that are anti-Christian and/or anti-God ....

reply to post by FlyersFan

Or others say 'Rome'. But there are MANY cities that are on 7 hills and that are anti-Christian and/or anti-God ....

A city being on 7 hills doesn't make it the whore.Even Jerusalem is on 7 hills.

But Jerusalem is also the only city that the Bible accuses of having the blood of prophets, saints and holy men... meaning Jerusalem is the whore of Revelations.... which is accused of the same crime.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Very true. It's the only city accused of that in writing from that time period. But, through the two thousand years since then, plenty of blood of innocent Christians have spilled in lots of cities with seven hills ... including Johns enemy city of that time ... Rome.

For a moment I'll pretend that Revelation is real (which I don't think it is, but I'll pretend it is for this discussion) ... John would have been seeing into the future, to the end when Jesus comes back, and therefore all those other cities would have to be included in the possibilities.

You definatley make a good case for Jerusalem. But a case can be made for a lot of other places as well. We won't know what the heck John was talking about until we are dead and can ask him. And by then ... we won't care anymore. (if we care at all now... )

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Very true. It's the only city accused of that in writing from that time period. But, through the two thousand years since then, plenty of blood of innocent Christians have spilled in lots of cities with seven hills ... including Johns enemy city of that time ... Rome.

For a moment I'll pretend that Revelation is real (which I don't think it is, but I'll pretend it is for this discussion) ... John would have been seeing into the future, to the end when Jesus comes back, and therefore all those other cities would have to be included in the possibilities.

You definatley make a good case for Jerusalem. But a case can be made for a lot of other places as well. We won't know what the heck John was talking about until we are dead and can ask him. And by then ... we won't care anymore. (if we care at all now... )

what i feel is that you have a soft corner for Jerusalem. Maybe i am wrong but if not then why you want it not to be Jerusalem?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I would also like to post this screenshot I took while researching for this thread.

Its interesting how an ad calling for Christians to unite and defend Israel is placed right above a chapter where a prophet is called to confront Jerusalem for its detestable practices

Is it a sign or just amazing irony?

edit on 3-2-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I just cracked the biggest smile after I saw this.

Amazing irony.

Originally posted by logical7
why you want it not to be Jerusalem?

I don't 'want' it to be anything. I don't care. I don't buy into Revelation being anything other than dementia driven religious hallucinations. It doesn't matter to me what city John was talking about. I think it's irrelevant.

If we pretend for a moment that Revelation is really 'visions' .... As I said, Skorpion makes a good case for Jerusalem. But so do those who say that John was talking about his own time because he thought Jesus was going to return in his lifetime. And in his own time, Rome was the enemy and the blood of the Christians was flowing because of the soldiers of Rome. Also, a good case can be made for just about any city I listed. All have seven hills. All have blood soaked soil. And if John was seeing into the future when Jesus returned, then they all could be considered candidates to fulfill the 'vision'.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Please explain how Jerusalem fulfills this criteria description given in the Bible?


1. How does Jerusalem fulfill the little horn power/Beast of the sea (aka Whore of Babylon) power that would arise After the Roman Empire and as it arises it would destroy 3 kingdoms out of the 10 that came up from the Pagan Roman Empire.

Daniel 7:24, "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings."

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2. Explain how Jerusalem fulfills the deadly wound to the Beast after its reign of 1260 prophetic days that was later healed

Revelation 13:3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

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3. Explain how Jerusalem as your Whore of Babylon controls a man who's name adds up to the number 666

Revelation 13:17,18, "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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4. Explain how Jerusalem is a mother church that has spurned many false doctrines from the teaching of the Bible, and many false churches (harlots) have come out of her. Show us the practices of Jerusalem embedded in their system which come from Babylonian or pagan religion

Revelation 17:5, "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

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5. Explain how Jerusalem has made war with the saints of God (Christians) for 1260 prophetic days

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall ... shall wear out the saints of the most High,"
Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 12:15, "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."
Revelation 12:6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

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6. Explain how Jerusalem has changed times and laws against God's Law

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

----------------------------------------
7. Please explain how Jerusalem has embedded in its system characteristics that come from Greece (leopard from Daniel 7:6), Persia (Bear of Daniel 7:5) and Rome....(the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 is where the 7 heads come from as the leopard has 4 heads, 4+1+1+1 = 7)

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

P.S the Beast with 7 heads and 10 crowns comes out of the sea (Rev. 13:1) not out of the land like you said in the original post
P.P.S The 4 heads of the leopard are Alexander the Great's 4 leading generals who took over the lands he conqurered. Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy and Seleucus

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
why you want it not to be Jerusalem?

I don't 'want' it to be anything. I don't care. I don't buy into Revelation being anything other than dementia driven religious hallucinations. It doesn't matter to me what city John was talking about. I think it's irrelevant.

If we pretend for a moment that Revelation is really 'visions' .... As I said, Skorpion makes a good case for Jerusalem. But so do those who say that John was talking about his own time because he thought Jesus was going to return in his lifetime. And in his own time, Rome was the enemy and the blood of the Christians was flowing because of the soldiers of Rome. Also, a good case can be made for just about any city I listed. All have seven hills. All have blood soaked soil. And if John was seeing into the future when Jesus returned, then they all could be considered candidates to fulfill the 'vision'.

i agree with you on this. Dont really take 'The Revealations' too seriously. Its ok to speculate a bit but not good to make it an obsession.

reply to post by logical7


If you study what is the mark of the Jewish people and what is the mark of Catholic authority you will find that they are opposite. For someone to misunderstand who the 'whore of Babylon'/ 'beast from the sea' is turns out to be a salvation issue because all those who receive the Beast's mark during the last days Tribulation Period test are erased from the Book of Life and don't go to Heaven.

The Catholic Church's Mark

“Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” — Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” — H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

What Does the Catholic Church say keeping its 'Mark' means

“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” — Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

“It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” — Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

------------------------------
God's mark

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave [5414] them my sabbaths, [7676] to be a sign [0226] between me and them, that they might know [3045] that I [am] the LORD [3068] that sanctify [6942] them.

Ezekiel 20:20 And hallow [6942] my sabbaths; [7676] and they shall be a sign [0226] between me and you, that ye may know [3045] that I [am] the LORD [3068] your God. [0430]
source

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign [Hebrew - 'Owth'] between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed

What is the word meaning of this strongs #0226 word?

SIGN: Hebrew: 'owth', meaning - sign, token, ensign, mark, a distinguishing mark, signal, banner, remembrance
classic.net.bible.org...
www.blueletterbible.org...

This shows that God's mark is the Sabbath commandment (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown)
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Do you think The Vatican realizes it has set up something against God's mark? Let's see

Is not yet too late for Protestants to redeem themselves. Will they do it?... will they indeed take the written word only, the Scripture alone, as their sole authority and their sole standard? Or will they still hold the indefensible, self contradictory, and suicidal doctrine and practice of following the authority of the Catholic church and wear the SIGN of her authority? Will they keep the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, according to Scripture? Or will they keep the Sunday according to the tradition of the Catholic church
Romes Challenge

See how they even emphasis 'SIGN', they know it is against God's sign/owth/mark

The final test against the beast will be people deciding whether, with enough pressure put on them, they will accept an earthly authority and follow their law or whether a person's highest authority is God and they follow His Laws.
-----------------------------
Read this verse carefully, it is God's advice on which authority you should follow during the Tribulation.

Revelation 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

Jesus here is telling us to make sure we worship the creator. Where else do we find similar language used?

Exodus 20:11 'For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

If you misidentify the whore of Babylon/Beast in you can see how it can become an issue...

The dragon, Satan, is going to counterfeit the second coming of Jesus and say that he has changed the 4th commandment to be Sunday. The Catholic Church is going to say that this is Christ (even though the Bible makes it clear Jesus doesn't touch the ground when He comes back and we spend the first 1000 years in Heaven, not on this Earth, going through the life records of people to confirm that God's judgement is right for those in the book of life and those not). The nations of the world and going to institute a law mandating Sunday worship be kept and persecute those who keep the Sabbath instead. That is where all this is ultimately headed.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Dude ...

- Revelation probably isn't a true 'vision' from God.
- Revelation simply doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with salvation.
- Skorpion makes a MUCH better case for Jerusalem than you do for the Vatican.

And you fall back on that tired ol' ... anyone worshipping God on Sunday instead of Saturday is going to hell ... bunk. The reason the Catholics have their main day of worship on Sunday is because they celebrate the new advent .. the new covenant .. the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on Sunday.

God isn't sending people to hell because they get together and love and worship Him on Sunday instead of Saturday. Ditto if they get together on Saturday instead of Sunday. Do you really think God is a petty little man who sets people up to fail and go to hell? So much for a 'loving' god ...

reply to post by FlyersFan

Revelation probably isn't a true 'vision' from God.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

If you think it isn't a true vision from God why are you even bothering with this subject

Skorpion makes a MUCH better case for Jerusalem than you do for the Vatican.

I haven't made any case for the Vatican in this thread...in the other thread from which this thread was a response to I outlined maybe 3 characteristics that the Vatican alone fulfilled with documented evidence. No one was able to dismiss them. I have historical evidence of all 25 or so characteristics that the Bible identifies. They ALL trace to the Papal system.

Please list every characteristic about the whore of babylon/little horn/beast of the sea and I will answer every single one you or anyone else can come up with.

The reason the Catholics have their main day of worship on Sunday is because they celebrate the new advent .. the new covenant .. the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on Sunday.

Let's have a look at some of the references of what is in the 'New Covenant'

Isaiah 56:6,7 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Isaiah 58:13,14
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

We already heard from The Catholic Record of London why the 'Church' keeps Sunday, they consider themselves 'above the Bible'

But what is the real reason they keep Sunday:

The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder [sun god of the norse], became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"
--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].

Oh, I see, She took religious practices from the Persian empire (Sun worship in Mithraism or Zoroastrianism) identifying herself with the characteristics of the Bear of Daniel 7 so she could help convert the heathen into her fold...sell out God for power

Do you really think God is a petty little man who sets people up to fail and go to hell? So much for a 'loving' god

This only becomes the final test when people are made aware about it WHEN the false Christ comes. How did God set people up to fail? He gave them the Bible what more do they need...

From the Catholic church again:

Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.”
Romes Challenge

Cardinal Gibbons the official mouth-piece for the Pope in America at the time:

“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).

The Catholic church makes it very clear that Sunday has nothing to do with scripture, is not part of any covenant and is all about Catholic authority.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Skorpion, you may do well to read this

imammahdiarrival/The Shaking

You may want to see what the Islamic leaders have to say about what I am saying and who I am representing, the Seventh-Day Adventist church. Please read to the end of the article.

We are the people of the book, Skorpion, we do not eat pork, we don't drink alcohol we believe in the last days...your leaders know who we are. We are the people who will be giving the Loud Cry

We are united by Abraham, think what he practised

Peace be with you

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

ANYONE can claim visions from God .. that doesn't make them true. Anyone can claim them, and not back them up. Muhammad claimed them. Are Muhammads 'visions' from God? Probably not, and he gave nothing to back them up. John, at the end of his life, claimed them through 'revelation'. Are they really from God? Probably not. And he gave nothing to back them up with. Tons of people today claim visions of God and special mandates (like George Bush 43 and the Iraq war) . Are they really from God? Probably not. And they can't back up the claims.

John was an old man. He had lived a very stressful life. He had survived assassination attempts. He was living in exile in very poor conditions. His 'visions' were probably just dementia hallucinations that were full of religious things because that's how he lived his life. There is NO PROOF that Johns supposed visions were actually from God. None. Common sense says that he ment well but they were just from dementia.

If you think it isn't a true vision from God why are you even bothering with this subject

That's my business .. not yours.

I outlined maybe 3 characteristics that the Vatican alone fulfilled with documented evidence. No one was able to dismiss them.

:shk: I can easily dismiss the Vatican as being the 'whore of Babylon'. It's very simple ... it is NOT on 7 hills. Rome is. Jerusalem is. Tehran is. Yonkers in NYC is. But the Vatican is not. Revelation is very clear .. 7 hills. The Vatican simply doesn't fit .. no matter how much your anti-Catholic, 7th Day Adventist, Jack Chick filled dreams think it does.

But what is the real reason they keep Sunday ..

Is because it's the day of Jesus Resurrection and everything is renewed ... It's a celebration of the Resurrection.

I feel bad for those who think everyone who loves and worships God are going to hell, simply because they get together and worship Him on a day different than they do. It's pretty damn pathetic. :shk:

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
who I am representing, the Seventh-Day Adventist church.

Be sure to check out their love affair with Ellen G. White. Another person who claimed a special mandate from God but couldn't back it up Seventh Day Adventist .. Orthodox or Cult? and she got a whole lotta' theology wrong.

We are united by Abraham, think what he practised

Yes ... a madman who heard voices from God telling him to butcher his son. A madman who planned to carry out the evil deed and, only at the last minute, had another hallucination tell him not to kill his kid. Yes, Abraham ... a real stable dude .. NOT!


Bottom line ... The Vatican doesn't fit. Jerusalem and Rome do. So do many other cities on the planet. No matter how much JACK CHICK or the Seventh Day Adventists say otherwise ...