Question on Genesis

reply to post by Akragon




reply to post by jiggerj


I see it a completely different way:

While bathing in a Spring, like the fountain of youth, Eve spied a mud pit.
God informed them of the Spring's sanctity. Yet she took her clothes off and encouraged Adam to follow, and went into the mud.

Then God, not wanting the Spring to become contaminated, would not let them back into It.

Metaphors go either way and do not often show the truth.

reply to post by jiggerj

A sinister mother (god) places a fresh, warm batch of cookies in her 4-yr-old's playroom. The mother says, "You can play with everything in this room, but you will be punished if you eat any of these cookies."

Seeing this, the evil father (Satan) places a two-way radio in the playroom and then hides in the bathroom. The father says into the other two-way radio, "Pssss, my son, I'm telling you that you will not be punished for eating the cookies. Go ahead, eat them."

Mother catches her son eating them. While the son is being punished, she and the father laugh and laugh and laugh. "Do you think we're evil parents?" asks the mother.

"Nah," replies the father, "We're just re-enacting the Garden of Eden story in the bible. How can god be evil?"

Your analogy does not fit the Biblical account.

a) Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Eve had the mind of a an immature 4 year old. She was created as an adult and had the mind of an adult, as far as decision making was concerned.
b) Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God had something to do with tricking her into eating it.
c) Nowhere does it say that God and Satan laughed about it together.

You have made up your own story and have grossly simplified the events in the garden by comparing it with parents and a 4 year old. Her decision to eat the apple was a lapse in judgement on her part. She was not forced into it, but was just talked into it... despite being aware that there would be consequences.

Its like walking into the streets knowing fully well that drugs are illegal and being aware that a policeman is watching you.... and then saying "yes" to a drug dealer asking if you want to buy drugs. When you are busted....

a) You are responsible for breaking a law as an adult.
b) You got into trouble because of YOUR decision to say "yes".
c) The cops were not working with the dealer to get you into trouble.

reply to post by logical7


"the islamic idea doesnt consider that tree as "tree of knowledge."
On the other hand Qur'an says that God Himself taught Adam the 'name of all things', i.e. Knowledge and that made Adam superior to even angels as angels only had limited knowledge(according to their job) but Adam(Man) got the potential to get as much knowledge as needed. "

yes, but did God teach Adam the knowledge of good and evil? if He did not then eating the fruit would not have been sin. If He did then what incentive would Adam have had to eat from the tree? Eating of the tree actually would have had no effect on him if so.

Get me?

reply to post by backcase

yes, but did God teach Adam the knowledge of good and evil? if He did not then eating the fruit would not have been sin.

Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil.... but he was created with an adult mind and had the basic mental capacity to process an instruction from God to not eat that fruit. So eating the fruit meant he was going against a direct instruction.

He was fully aware that he would be in trouble if he did so. Which is why he refrained from eating that fruit, at least for the first few days/ years in the garden.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


"Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil.... but he was created with an adult mind and had the basic mental capacity to process an instruction from God to not eat that fruit. So eating the fruit meant he was going against a direct instruction. "

He was fully aware that he would be in trouble if he did so. Which is why he refrained from eating that fruit, at least for the first few days/ years in the garden."

by good and evil i mean right and wrong, positive and negative. Which he obviously had to know or else eating from the tree would not have been sin.

"So eating the fruit meant he was going against a direct instruction."

And how would he have known it was wrong to do, if he had no knowledge of right and wrong?

reply to post by backcase

And how would he have known it was wrong to do, if he had no knowledge of right and wrong?

The point is Adam was told not to do a certain thing... and was warned of dire consequences.

Until a point he successfully followed the instruction and did not do that thing... so his lack of knowledge of good and evil is a moot point.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


"The point is Adam was told not to do a certain thing... and was warned of dire consequences."

So he knew that it was wrong to do.

He knew he was not supposed to commit the act.

So the good thing to do was to not eat the fruit, he knew this. He knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, and once more that there are repercussions. Therefore, he had knowledge of the one sin he could possibly commit.

right?

((what is a moot point?))

reply to post by backcase

So the good thing to do was to not eat the fruit, he knew this. He knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, and once more that there are repercussions. Therefore, he had knowledge of the one sin he could possibly commit.

Yes.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Keep in mind that the same God who planted the Tree of Life in the garden, also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God's plan, carried out through the serpent, was for Adam & Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, as a means for them, and us, to learn and grow up to maturity. Don't be fooled by God's apparent surprise when He asks, "Who told you, you were naked?" Even though they had been innocent, their eyes had been opened by the act of eating, and they had an awareness they had lacked before the eating.

Maybe Adam and Eve had no need to eat at all ever, and by doing so fell into a lower frequency and became fully formed flesh and bone humans, thereby changing all intents of their creator to remain in a less physical state. Was the Tree of Life off limits as well as The Tree of Knoweledge?

The forbidden aspect; why the temptation in the first place. Because it was a planned well executed event that would eventually translate across history into scores of textual retribution regarding the Serpent in the Garden. Fear me as I am thy God, I am chock full of trickery and will go to any length to confuse and confound you innocent babes.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Eve had the mind of a an immature 4 year old. She was created as an adult and had the mind of an adult, as far as decision making was concerned.

This ought to be good.

Your claim is that Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Decision making takes knowledge in order to intelligently weigh the consequences of one's actions.

So, what does the apple represent?

reply to post by backcase

((what is a moot point?))

Adam and Eve having knowledge (as Skorpion suggests), but eating from the Tree of Knowledge to gain the knowledge that Adam and Eve already had. This is a moot point.

reply to post by jiggerj


okay, thankyou, that makes sense to me now.

I'm not the brightest

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by logical7

 

"the islamic idea doesnt consider that tree as "tree of knowledge."
On the other hand Qur'an says that God Himself taught Adam the 'name of all things', i.e. Knowledge and that made Adam superior to even angels as angels only had limited knowledge(according to their job) but Adam(Man) got the potential to get as much knowledge as needed. "

yes, but did God teach Adam the knowledge of good and evil? if He did not then eating the fruit would not have been sin. If He did then what incentive would Adam have had to eat from the tree? Eating of the tree actually would have had no effect on him if so.

Get me?

yes i do. God forbade eating from the tree as a 'test.'
The plan was already to send them on Earth but after a lesson.
The command was 'not to eat' from the tree the consequence was being kicked out from heaven.
It wasnt the birth of sin, sin had already happened when devil refused to bow.(actually even before that, the djinns were already on earth with free will and so sins)
The sin are of two kinds here,
1)sin that deserve punishment.
2)sin that leads to its consequence.
Being expelled wasnt a punishment, it was a natural consequence.
Because if it was a punishment then the sin wasnt forgiven.
The one's worthy to stay in Heaven are them who submit and obey God fully, Adam and Eve failed and were sent to earth for 'a while' to learn and return back but they were forgiven about the disobedience. We are not here as a punishment rather just a test.

reply to post by logical7


Great reply, logical

reply to post by jiggerj

Your claim is that Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. Decision making takes knowledge in order to intelligently weigh the consequences of one's actions.
So, what does the apple represent?

Before eating the fruit, Adam probably functioned with an extremely basic understanding of "action" and "consequence"... he didn't know of certain things such as "nakedness". These were concepts which he became aware of after eating the fruit.