The Devil: Evil or God's Will?

reply to post by Daeobi

So, anything that Lucifer does must be within God's Will, and if that is so, then it comes from God.

not really, you build the whole opinion on this assumption. Its not God's Will, however God knew it and choose not to interfere for a time to see who submits his/her free will to Him. The one's who dont, including 'the devil' will try to get more in their camp but Devil is not doing it for God and cant claim he is doing God's Will

So in all the lamenting that the Christians do about what Satan is doing, who is worshipping Satan, etc; they rarely stop to think that it is actually their God that is doing it. The story of Moses chronicles that God HIMSELF hardened Pharaoh's heart which in turn brought devastating consequences upon his land. Satan was never mentioned once in that story, it was all God, playing games with the people. So, one must ask themselves, is Lucifer truly evil, or is it all a way to test your loyalty to Jehovah (which meansthe unchanging, eternal, self-existent God, which means he is still the same God that tortured Egypt)?

the testing of loyalty by devil is incidental, yes God knew but its each person's free choice that is under test. God is letting evil happen on earth to not violate free choice, but anyone committing evil cant get away by claiming that it was God's Will as God let it happen. Thats a lame excuse to do wrong then pin it on God. Yes right! God would really feel ashamed and leave His Throne(metaphorical) to the 'wise guy' who bested Him by this arguement!!!

reply to post by logical7


You said that I build my whole opinion on an assumption, your Holy Book says it outright, take a look:

Lamentations 3:37-41 (New International Version) 37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? 39 Why should any living man complain when punished for his sins? 40 Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD.

Another prime example of Christians only reading what they want to.

Originally posted by Daeobi
reply to post by logical7

 

You said that I build my whole opinion on an assumption, your Holy Book says it outright, take a look:

Lamentations 3:37-41 (New International Version) 37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? 39 Why should any living man complain when punished for his sins? 40 Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD.

Another prime example of Christians only reading what they want to.

i am not a christian but still whats wrong in the verses? A calamity is from God too, either a punishment or a test of loyalty.
Its about the attitude with which a person takes it.
A lesson or a reason to complain.

The Devil is a deceiver. He tests us to see if we are worthy. He tempts us. He does not force us to do evil. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. This to me means that he is still under the control of god.

The demons are a different thing altogether which I still haven't figured out. You don't have to let them take control of you though.

If only satan can be the author of evil and temptation, then why does the Lords Prayer ask God to not lead us into evil?

Isn't that kind of unnessesary, if only satan can do that?

Why does God inflict people with delusions, so that they believe a lie?

Satan is a symbol for a part of God. We all have a shadow-self... we repress it and project it onto others who then become the demonized 'bad guys'.

If we are made in the image of God, then God has a shadow-self too. As above, so below. Satan is an anthropomorphism of Gods shadow-self. Every archetype, every symbol, has a positive and a negative aspect.

People need to quit thinking that Satan and God are separate beings. God is ultimately beyond being and non-being, beyond individuality. Ultimatley, God is not merely a being among beings. She is more than that.

People need to quit repressing and projecting their shadow-self onto their neighbors.

People need to outgrow mainstream orthodox thinking. Grow up and think outside the box.

reply to post by BlueMule

If we are made in the image of God, then God has a shadow-self too. As above, so below. Satan is an anthropomorphism of Gods shadow- self. Every archetype, every symbol, has a positive and a negative aspect.

do you agree that what you said above may or may not be true? Based on your finite ability to comprehend any concept?
In short you are just throwing in an opinion.

Originally posted by rickymouse
The Devil is a deceiver. He tests us to see if we are worthy. He tempts us. He does not force us to do evil. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. This to me means that he is still under the control of god.

That is exactly my point in a way, thank you.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by BlueMule

 

If we are made in the image of God, then God has a shadow-self too. As above, so below. Satan is an anthropomorphism of Gods shadow- self. Every archetype, every symbol, has a positive and a negative aspect.

do you agree that what you said above may or may not be true? Based on your finite ability to comprehend any concept?
In short you are just throwing in an opinion.

An opinion in contrast to the kindergarten, exoteric, Sunday School, orthodox, mainstream, conservative, oversimplified opinions that pervade ATS. I'm sick and tired of kindergarten exegesis. I'm sick of hearing Satan this, NWO that, heresy this, illuminati that, freemasonry this. It's pathetic.

An opinion based on years of studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, comparative mysticism, analytical psychology, and based on actually having classic mystical experiences myself. If one wants to understand the religious assumptions their culture makes, one must look at other cultures and experience mysticism. One must be a comparativist and a mystic. It's the only way to gain panoramic, binocular depth of vision. Who on ATS is more qualified to have an opinion than me? NO ONE.

'I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.'

-Isaiah 45:7

Who doesn't love Dragon Ball Z? Exactly!

Besides the down episodes about chichi trying to force Gohan to go to school and Goku out swimming and catching fish. It's the best anime possibly ever?

Take Piccolo he's a reptilian from outer space. He starts out a tyrant. Then an enemy from space brings the good out of him. After all the monkey planet is under his kingship. This was in his younger days.

Piccolo has the potential to become something great only through meditation and a lot of mental discipline can he realize his true power. Kame the reptilian guarding Earth is actually the macrocosm Piccolo meaning Piccolo the whole time is Goku.

Yes Piccolo the reptilian from space has the power of Goku. The Goku aspect of the cartoon is showing that Piccolo is actually walking around as a mammal, a human. He's a reptilian that reincarnated as a human. Through meditation and training he became the great hero we know as Goku.

Frieza an alien from space. Cell a genetically engineered tyrant. Boo a magical evil entity.

Think about that genetically engineered alien from space whose an evil sorcerer. That's the evil side.

So what can we determine here? You put it together!

Let me ask you one question. How can you hate and fear satan for tricking you into being intelligent enough to work your computer and tie your own shoes?

If you are so afraid of satan and what he has done. Please do us all a favor. Take your clothes off move to Africa and walk around with the Antelope and never touch anything man made again.

reply to post by BlueMule

If one wants to understand the religious assumptions their culture makes, one must look at other cultures and experience mysticism. One must be a comparativist and a mystic. It's the only way to gain panoramic, binocular depth of vision. Who on ATS is more qualified to have an opinion than me? NO ONE.

WOW! Thats interesting. I dont know much but i am taught that more knowledge should bring more humility.
You also sound like any other "100% convinced" beings who think "My way is most superior."

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by BlueMule

 

If one wants to understand the religious assumptions their culture makes, one must look at other cultures and experience mysticism. One must be a comparativist and a mystic. It's the only way to gain panoramic, binocular depth of vision. Who on ATS is more qualified to have an opinion than me? NO ONE.

WOW! Thats interesting. I dont know much but i am taught that more knowledge should bring more humility.

You should also be taught to give the devil his due.

You also sound like any other "100% convinced" beings who think "My way is most superior."

Well, I predict that after studying for a decade to become a comparativist and after having more mystical and paranormal experiences than you can shake a stick at, you'll be singing a different tune.

But hey, whatever. Go ahead and dismiss scholarship and experience merely because it provides a better perspective than the ignorance of the uninitiated, the fundamentalists, and the paranoid.

reply to post by Daeobi

Hi,
That's a cool question.

I often ask myself about paradise; How do I know what paradise is if there is not a place with which to gauge against it?

That fruit is rotten because this fruit is ripe. I might be confident to declare that we were created to describe the fruit, we were given discernment so that we can gauge things on an intelligent level. And to know good from bad.

And, why is there even a difference? Why make life a puzzle for human's?

No matter how good your life is on Earth, it can never be as good as life is in the heavens.

("build me a fire -you monkey")

The Devil, Satan, Iblis, Lucifer, whatever you want to call him/it does not need to be feared.

Remember, he is a CREATED being. He is not a direct adversary of God, he was created by him, just like all the other Angels. His original role was one of Accuser, not Deceiver and evil. He was more Prosecutor than Jailer.

Also remember that it is God that chose to leave him in Creation, rather than cast him and the 1/3 out of creation altogether.

He is not God's equal/opposite, although relatively recent Protestant tradition has set him up that way. He and God are Not two sides of the same coin, good/evil.

Satan is not the other half of a duality of good and evil with God on the other side. God is superior and Satan exists at god's leisure.

Think about that.

It depends on what you mean by the devil.

The school is AI with coding of dark/light, death/birth, sickness/health, etc etc. Its a machine, well sort of, more than that really. But simply put, AI. One could say the true Top of the pyramid is AI. In a tiny school, smaller than a grain of sand universe, so not the top of reality. Only in the simulated holographic reality infinite inwards television we call our universe. (metaphor!)

Now in this platform which is highly interactive, we can transform worlds to light and love or to hellzones, Behavior is being tested.

God/Goodness/Love/Family above, does not do bad things. Love never harms.

So the bad behavior of someone is not intended in the Plan, and its not needed. Thats failing the test.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by BlueMule

 

If one wants to understand the religious assumptions their culture makes, one must look at other cultures and experience mysticism. One must be a comparativist and a mystic. It's the only way to gain panoramic, binocular depth of vision. Who on ATS is more qualified to have an opinion than me? NO ONE.

WOW! Thats interesting. I dont know much but i am taught that more knowledge should bring more humility.

You should also be taught to give the devil his due.

You also sound like any other "100% convinced" beings who think "My way is most superior."

Well, I predict that after studying for a decade to become a comparativist and after having more mystical and paranormal experiences than you can shake a stick at, you'll be singing a different tune.

But hey, whatever. Go ahead and dismiss scholarship and experience merely because it provides a better perspective than the ignorance of the uninitiated, the fundamentalists, and the paranoid.

I know that the downfall of the devil is not ignorance but arrogance.
Not everyone can be as 'learned' as you, but everyone can try not to be arrogant like the devil.
I have seen how arrogance can blind people to absurd levels, i am not claiming that i dont have it, i do and i so wish to get rid of it.
Mysticism is interesting, but i dont agree with you that mystic & paranormal experiences means a better understanding. (drugs can also stimulate it, doesnt mean, addicts got the 'meaning of life' by that). Majority of people will never experience that, if God judges everyone on a similar basis, then it would not be knowledge/experience rather piety/humbleness/goodness. If it is knowledge even then it must be the application of knowledge for doing good rather than just amount of what is gathered but unused.

Originally posted by BlueMule

An opinion in contrast to the kindergarten, exoteric, Sunday School, orthodox, mainstream, conservative, oversimplified opinions that pervade ATS. I'm sick and tired of kindergarten exegesis. I'm sick of hearing Satan this, NWO that, heresy this, illuminati that, freemasonry this. It's pathetic.

An opinion based on years of studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, comparative mysticism, analytical psychology, and based on actually having classic mystical experiences myself. If one wants to understand the religious assumptions their culture makes, one must look at other cultures and experience mysticism. One must be a comparativist and a mystic. It's the only way to gain panoramic, binocular depth of vision. Who on ATS is more qualified to have an opinion than me? NO ONE.

'I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.'

-Isaiah 45:7

edit on 2-2-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Tell me why you choose to quote the Bible? I've seen you misinterpret it several times.

Go back and read Leonidas' post again.

For anyone using the Bible as a reference, Lucifer is the "son of the Morning Star" and the "son of the Dawn", not the Morning Star and Dawn himself.

God created Lucifer.

So Satan has been tempting man for thousands of years. God takes it out on us weak humans because of being tempted and kills a whole lot of us.Who is the murderer here satan or god? How cruel is that why doesn't god get rid of satan, no he lets satan run amuck. This why this whole god and satan thing is a load of BS