Muslims to march on White House next September 11th, page 3

reply to post by mike_trivisonno

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well, that was really a question put to the op re his own descrption of his internal struggle/question over what he should make of this.

i also find the perception (in my view) by some posters that i am an apologist for extremists or "pro islam" (as in anti-west, it's implicit if anyone has the nuts to admit it) as laughable.
in the recent climate on these issues (and ats is a prime example of this) balanced discussion and debate regarding islam and it's beliefs and followers is only possible with some posters, and many are unable to separate their emotional responses or prejudices from examination of some of the issues.
i feel that radical islam is a major problem in the world at present, but then i feel that western (read largely us/uk) governments foreign policies/interference/subterfuge and the fallout of artificial uk and french defined national borders in the middle east is also a major problem. add to that expoitation of poor nations, particularly in africa and both sides have a lot to answer for in regard to screwing up our world and setting people against each other.
as a brit who lives in a densely populated part of my country, i have been raised around muslims, amongst other faiths... i went to school with them, played with them, had tea with muslim families after after spending all saturday riding around on my bike with their kids; later worked with them - heck, i've even given a couple of muslim ladies the benefit of my physical company
i have known a lot of moderate, peaceful muslims who were as much a part of my country and culture as i was.

i know "cant we all just get along?? think of the children" etc etc

so if the muslim march is jihad, what do you suggest happens in the us regarding that?
what is the future for muslims in the US..... obvs a significant number of born and bred US citizens have converted to islam, and yet still feel able to serve in your military, police force, other emergency sevices etc etc - do you feel that they are on some kind of sleeper jihad mode?

reply to post by KingIcarus

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Oh so you want to compare between Islamic terrorists and terrorists from other religion.

How many Christian terrorists do you think exist?
How many Buddhist terrorists do you think exist?
How many Hindu terrorists do you think exist?

How many Christian terrorist attacks did you have in your country?
How many Buddhist terrorist attacks did you have in your country?
How many Hindu terrorist attacks did you have in your country?

There has been more than 20,000 Islamic terrorist attacks around the world.

The Religion Of Peace

reply to post by shivaX

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Okay, you keep making the self same point whilst refusing to actually discuss it. I'm finding it very difficult to understand why you think so many of my points are invalid because you post lists of Islamic terrorist attacks.

Have you ever considered why there might be so many attacks? I haven't done as much research as you on this, but I'm going to assume that the very vast majority of these attacks take place in Muslim countries. Could it be that having so many countries with their borders drawn up rather arbitarily in one place is problematic when the actual culture of these places is more defined by religious and tribal lines? Sounds rather like Africa in some respects, another place marred by violence.

Anyhow, my question was - and still is - given only one of those 20,000 Islamic terrorist attacks have taken place in America (and carried out by foreigners), why do you think the million Muslim Americans considering marching on DC in September have any less rights than you do? And why are they responsible for crimes that happen on the other side of the planet?

vast majority of these attacks take place in Muslim countries.

reply to post by KingIcarus

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Muslim's attacking their own country is beyond our control and quite frankly..it is their own problem. We have nothing to do about it.

However the problem arises when Muslims come to our country and attack us, try to establish Jihad and Sharia etc.

why do you think the million Muslim Americans considering marching on DC in September have any less rights than you do? And why are they responsible for crimes that happen on the other side of the planet?

I never said that I 'think that the million Muslim Americans considering marching on DC in September have any less rights than I do'. I ve no problem with them marching to DC. However I do have a problem when someone tries to defend Islam which has been the cause of so many terrorist attacks/rapes/forced conversions and continues to be so.

reply to post by shivaX

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Okay, perhaps I've misinterpreted you a little here. My apologies.

To be honest, I'm not big on defending Islam as a whole because I agree it has problems. Like others say, those problems are increased by Western meddling and also the links between Extremism and Muslim nations us in both the UK and US would prefer not to shine to great a light on. Sad but true.

However, I feel it important to clear up misconceptions. I come from white bread, rural Britain, and moving to a city for college was my first experience of Muslim people. As it happened, my dorm was in one of the most Muslim areas in Britain... right near a mosque, in the week after 9/11. All coincidences, but you can perhaps imagine it was a bit of a culture shock.

Anyhow, I lived in that area for six years in total and never once saw any evidence at all to support the notion that Muslims are trying to change or take over anything. Of course, a Muslim area has certain Muslim things like Shisha Cafes and ethnic stores (and the Mosque, of course) but never once did I see anything other than normal people living their lives - albeit with slightly different customs to my own. There was no talk of conversion, no talk of Sharia, nothing. I appreciate the white kid might not be an obvious person to confide your nefarious plans to, but in six years you'd expect to see at least something out of the ordinary - even just graffiti or something.

I know there's a couple of areas in the UK that have a more significant problem with this than my old neighbourhood, but - as ever - the biggest idiots have the loudest voices. People on here keep talking about 'Sharia Law in Britain', but the evidence presented is never anything more than a very small group of wasters talking nonsense. It's not credible at all that any form of Sharia will become part of common law here.

I know America isn't hugely experienced with a Muslim population, but I feel it important to point out that the very, very vast majority of them are no different to you or I - and that doesn't even include the Westernised ones! You should see how quickly my 'Muslim' mate can drink a pint of lager - and he doesn't get cast aside by the community for it, even if it does raise the odd eyebrow!

reply to post by skalla

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so if the muslim march is jihad, what do you suggest happens in the us regarding that?
what is the future for muslims in the US..... obvs a significant number of born and bred US citizens have converted to islam, and yet still feel able to serve in your military, police force, other emergency sevices etc etc - do you feel that they are on some kind of sleeper jihad mode?

You are mired in the rhetoric of the 1990s. As I said before, on many occasions, Jihad, as much as you want to paint it as such, is NOT a response to any perceived slights suffered by the muslims at the hands of non-muslims. Regardless of how much you want it be otherwise, it just is not. Jihad would exist and would be advanced even in the absence of Western Civilization. This is because Jihad is a process not a response.

For example, look towards long suffering India, hardly a bastion of Western ideas, where the muslims have engaged in Jihad for centuries. Entire swaths of land have been ceded to muslims engaged in Jihad; Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kashmir. And was the result peace with the muslims? Not at all. Indeed, the weakness displayed by successive generations of Indians has resulted in even more Jihad, even more demands, and even more death. The muslim thirst for Jihad will not be slaked until all India is in thrall to Mecca.

Or perhaps we can take a glance at the Western provinces of China where muslims are perpetually engaged in violent Jihad and seek autonomy from the rest of China. How long before large swathes of land are ceded to these muslims only to find they seek more Jihad, more land, and more submission to their deity? Hardly the fault of the meddlesome French or cowboy Americans.

Muslims wherever they reside or work, be it in the military, the government, or the private sector have as their goal the destruction of the Constitution and my Bill of Rights. Muslims residing on American soil, as much as you want to swallow the sweet lies they offer you to the contrary, are not here to participate in American culture, they are here to replace it with Islam and Sharia. The quaint, western colloquialism of "sleeper jihad mode" is disingenuous and deceptive; there are only muslims engaged in Jihad and the muslims that quietly support them in their goal of seeing Islam ascend over all the planet.

Clearly, and this assertion is supported with large quantities of historical facts written in the blood of millions of non-muslim victims across both space and time, muslims do not belong in America as they are unable to break free of their enslavement to Mecca and the retrograde culture to which they adhere.

In America, I advocate for the following non-violent program to reduce Jihad:
- Outlaw Islam
- Close all mosques and madrassas
- Deport all muslims

reply to post by TrueAmerican

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Let's not forget that Islam isn't just a problem in the United States, but world wide. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, the Philippines and a slew of other countries have suffered both culturally and politically (crime, threats, political murder etc.) thanks to Islam.

People often complain that the prison populace in the United States is biased and that's the reason for the majority being minorities. Well, in Europe the majority in the prison systems are Muslims and minorities in general. And we're as liberal as they get. Virtually bending backwards to accommodate immigrants.

So what does that tell you when minorities are the majority of extreme liberal and immigration friendly countries prison systems?

Open your eyes, sure we may be under a divide and conquer tactic but we're not the only ones playing our part! I for one won't sit down and take it up the rear in hopes that things will change. Because Islam doesn't want to change, they're the perfect weapon against a dumbed down and liberal society. We're meek, they aren't. And that's why it's working.

Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
reply to post by skalla

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so if the muslim march is jihad, what do you suggest happens in the us regarding that?
what is the future for muslims in the US..... obvs a significant number of born and bred US citizens have converted to islam, and yet still feel able to serve in your military, police force, other emergency sevices etc etc - do you feel that they are on some kind of sleeper jihad mode?

You are mired in the rhetoric of the 1990s. As I said before, on many occasions, Jihad, as much as you want to paint it as such, is NOT a response to any perceived slights suffered by the muslims at the hands of non-muslims. Regardless of how much you want it be otherwise, it just is not. Jihad would exist and would be advanced even in the absence of Western Civilization. This is because Jihad is a process not a response.

For example, look towards long suffering India, hardly a bastion of Western ideas, where the muslims have engaged in Jihad for centuries. Entire swaths of land have been ceded to muslims engaged in Jihad; Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kashmir. And was the result peace with the muslims? Not at all. Indeed, the weakness displayed by successive generations of Indians has resulted in even more Jihad, even more demands, and even more death. The muslim thirst for Jihad will not be slaked until all India is in thrall to Mecca.

Or perhaps we can take a glance at the Western provinces of China where muslims are perpetually engaged in violent Jihad and seek autonomy from the rest of China. How long before large swathes of land are ceded to these muslims only to find they seek more Jihad, more land, and more submission to their deity? Hardly the fault of the meddlesome French or cowboy Americans.

Muslims wherever they reside or work, be it in the military, the government, or the private sector have as their goal the destruction of the Constitution and my Bill of Rights. Muslims residing on American soil, as much as you want to swallow the sweet lies they offer you to the contrary, are not here to participate in American culture, they are here to replace it with Islam and Sharia. The quaint, western colloquialism of "sleeper jihad mode" is disingenuous and deceptive; there are only muslims engaged in Jihad and the muslims that quietly support them in their goal of seeing Islam ascend over all the planet.

Clearly, and this assertion is supported with large quantities of historical facts written in the blood of millions of non-muslim victims across both space and time, muslims do not belong in America as they are unable to break free of their enslavement to Mecca and the retrograde culture to which they adhere.

In America, I advocate for the following non-violent program to reduce Jihad:
- Outlaw Islam
- Close all mosques and madrassas
- Deport all muslims

is this a serious answer?

reply to post by skalla

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is this a serious answer?

Yes, it is. Sadly, your position stands on nothing more than feelings and emotions which are easily swept away by the facts of history and the proclamations of the muslims themselves. Your lack of a reply is an indication that you have nothing more in your arsenal of feelings-based arguments that can be used to defend your woefully inadequate understanding of Islam and Jihad.

Perhaps if you took the time to listen to the voices of history, your understanding of Jihad would be more aligned with historical facts and not the deceptive lies offered by the muslims.

reply to post by mike_trivisonno

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actually my very brief reply was me seeking confirmation that you actually were prepared to back up what you posted after having a moment to reflect on it.

so, as you state you wish to ban islam, mosques, madrassas (i was unaware that these were an issue in the us) and deport all muslims, and you feel that this is a nonviolent solution.

how do you ban a belief?

how do you police such a ban and monitor wether a mosque has been set up?

are you suggesting that you ammend the constitution of the us to enable these bans?

how would you restrict access to information such as the koran, discussion groups, the internet etc?

how do you deal with converts to islam in this new regime, how would you find out about their conversion and where would you deport them to if they are us citizens etc?

reply to post by KingIcarus

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To be honest, whilst I respect Mike's right to express his opinion on this matter - and indeed his skilful way of presenting them, I find his sentiments quite depressing.

What, then, about the sentiments of the muslims? What is more depressing, the goals of the muslims or the people who point out those goals?

Islam is an existential threat to Western Civilization and I will not entertain any position that places Islam and muslims above me and my culture.

reply to post by skalla

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are you suggesting that you ammend the constitution of the us to enable these bans?

We do not need to amend the Constitution to round up and detain enemy soldiers. And that is exactly what the muslims are; enemies. Soldiers of Islam here to destroy my culture and replace it with Islam and Sharia.

You display an amazing ability to simply ignore centuries of violent Jihad, the erasure of culture after culture, and the slaughter of millions of innocent non-muslims on the altar of Allah. It is a stunning display of historical ignorance and intellectual dishonesty on your part.

reply to post by mike_trivisonno

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Well, we might have to agree to disagree here. I do appreciate your view, but I don't agree with it.

I just don't think there's a concerted jihadi effort to take over the world. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure amongst extremists there is sympathy for such a cause but I simply don't think ordinary Muslim folk are on board with it - if they were then there'd be widespread, contemporary evidence of it. I don't believe the evidence stacks up.

As I say, I live in Manchester UK which - along with cities like London, Birmingham, Bradford, Blackburn and Leeds - are pointed to by people with similar views to yours as the 'cultural battleground' of Islam. Despite living for six years in the epicentre of Muslim activity in this city, I never saw one shred of evidence that contradicted my view that the vast majority just want to assimilate whilst keeping elements of their culture.

Of course, there are incidents which contradict this - but they're newsworthy because they're fairly rare. Muslims are also involved in crime, but not any more disproportionally than other immigrants. Are all Muslims good people? Of course not. Are all Muslims bad people? Just as stupid, in my opinion.

reply to post by mike_trivisonno

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Listen to Mike, he knows what he's saying and sees Islam for what it is.

Thanks Mike. Your solution, as extreme as many want to believe, is mild in comparison to what I have in mind (don't ask me about that, I won't say what I think about a solution). Stars for Mike, I'll be putting you on my friends list now.

reply to post by TrueAmerican

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The article in your OP is from Press tv. This is Iranian state owned and based in Teheran.

The author of the article is Kevin Barrett; a notorious 9/11 conspiracy theorist and ant-semite.

I think we should wait and see something more objective before getting too excited.

reply to post by mike_trivisonno

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thanks for replying, there is no intellectual dishonesty from me and i am engaging in a debate and exchange of ideas with you, there is no intent from me to aggravate you.
i have no need to ignore centuries of violent jihad as you put it, overall it's supposed outcome on my life has not been any greater than any other violent events or conflicts throughout history, and there are plenty of bad guys today and throughout history as we all know, all hate has a negative effect on how we live. i certainly do not see my way of life as being threatened by it as you do.
as is obvious, i disagree with your assertion that all muslims are in some way lying to us and seeking to destroy the us, the uk and so forth.

do you know any muslims personally, how much close contact do you have with them in your community, or work or relationships?

and how would you ban a belief etc? i asked the series of questions in my previous post as i dont see how you can do that in a free country without turning it into a police state and having grannies spying for government, a la china was famouisly claimed to in the 70's and 80's.

really, how would you ban a belief and enforce this?

Originally posted by DAVID64
reply to post by skalla

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Demanding rights is one thing, to use the rules of the system to progress your own agenda and force others to follow you, is not what it's there for. Freedom of speech and religion is fine, but some Muslims want to use those rights to force "God" out and "Allah" in. They are certainly not known for religious tolerance.

I couldn't agree more on this. Also, could they have chosen another day? ANY other day, perhaps? Can the United States not be permitted a single day of memorial for over 3,000 dead? I mean, the symbolism of this overwhelms any message they may have intended by it.

THIS 9/11 we had 4 Americans brutally murdered in Benghazi, Libya by we're still told they don't know who for certain (while I have dozens of color still photos of their faces ...from their own released video in my archives )

NEXT 9/11 they are going to march on the White House to demand Muslim rights? Hey, they might even have a point in some ways ...but again, I can't help but say, I don't really care what their point HAD BEEN.....when they choose that day and way to express it.

What do we look forward to in 2014? A protest march through the memorial museum of Ground Zero itself? Geeze... We're supposed to change laws and bend over to back breaking extremes to not so much as offend them in any way ... while they make offending us their whole point and goal? Neigh Neigh I say. It can't work one sided like that, IMO. Some of the resentment they may see now is 100% brought on by their own actions.

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