service men and women will fire upon civilians if ordered

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by cantyousee

 

.

Waco wasn't a massacre caused by the military or government for that matter. It was caused by a dillusional bastard who thought he was Christ and broke federal laws. The fact that you side with the crazy cult is very telling.

This last bit you type backs what I have been saying.

Maybe the guy was crazy and he broke some federal laws, but it didn't require a tank be rolled to his front door and everyone gunned down.

The guy was labeled a terrorist or whatever noun and people such as me and you saw him as being against us and we followed orders.

Like I said, some noun would be applied to an uprising and all of a sudden it would make perfect sense to a servicemember to treat them no different than the taliban.

If OWS had grown larger and say started talking about storming the WH or something to the effect, they would have been labeled as terrorists and guess what........YOU and ME would have opened fire on them.

So no....you're partially right......we wouldn't open fire on U.S. citizens. At least not until we have made them out to be something else....I'll give you that!

reply to post by DZAG Wright


Everything you wrote is complete bullcrap.

First of all, everyone wasn't "gunned down". The majority were killed by the fire and the FBI didn't go in guns blazing, they returned fire. Big difference. Waco wasn't the massacre that you are intentionaly miscontruing it as, it was a horrific episode caused by a bunch of crazy cultists. The government was actually performing one of its main roles, which is maintaining the safety of its citizens. They saw a bunch of whack jobs stockpiling weapons, believed they posed a threat, and went in there and did their job. Were there mistakes made? Hell yes. I, however, refuse to Monday morning quarterback the whole situation.

It looks like you were in the military, does that mean you have ever experienced combat?

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Everything you wrote is complete bullcrap.

First of all, everyone wasn't "gunned down". The majority were killed by the fire and the FBI didn't go in guns blazing, they returned fire. Big difference. Waco wasn't the massacre that you are intentionaly miscontruing it as, it was a horrific episode caused by a bunch of crazy cultists. The government was actually performing one of its main roles, which is maintaining the safety of its citizens. They saw a bunch of whack jobs stockpiling weapons, believed they posed a threat, and went in there and did their job. Were there mistakes made? Hell yes. I, however, refuse to Monday morning quarterback the whole situation.

It looks like you were in the military, does that mean you have ever experienced combat?

I really barely recall the Waco fiasco so I'm sure I was off on things. My main point was to show that servicemembers will fire on civilians....as soon as we apply a label or some other cool noun to them making them different in our eyes.

"Whack jobs stockpiling weapons".......is that not what we have plenty of here on ATS?

So if it's determined to maintain the safety of the majority of the citizens, what if it's necessary to open fire on OWS? See how easy that is?

Many of you have it BACKWARDS

1: You can't control or stop a people that rise against their government, you can kill them with drones, you can order your troops to fire eventually you have a civil war within the ranks too, they could never win no government ever has succeeded long term... without the TAXES the drones and troops inevitably go away

2: Troops from other nations will not come in against us... they will come in to save us

3: If the US announced that we were joining a one world government the people would rebel.... see #1 for results

4: Create revolution that can never be won by government over other reasons, Foreign troops AID us against the threat Americans Greet One world Government with open arms when it's over

This is how you get 100 Million Chinese to North America without a navy

Make them saviors...

reply to post by DZAG Wright


You in no way came even close to proving your point. First, there is the simple fact that the folks in Waco weren't the innocents framed by the government you are trying to make them. According to your logic, that a military member would shoot anybody, even if that person is a bonafide "bad guy", then that means he would wantonly kill innocents? Do you really think that if leadership points at some random dude and says "Look, a terrorist! Shoot him!", I would just open up on the guy? If so, then we can just stop our interactions now because that is complete and utter bullcrap.

Your arguments are made under the (incorrect) assumption that military members blindly follow orders. Without that ridiculous assertion, everything you say completely falls apart.

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

You in no way came even close to proving your point. First, there is the simple fact that the folks in Waco weren't the innocents framed by the government you are trying to make them. According to your logic, that a military member would shoot anybody, even if that person is a bonafide "bad guy", then that means he would wantonly kill innocents? Do you really think that if leadership points at some random dude and says "Look, a terrorist! Shoot him!", I would just open up on the guy? If so, then we can just stop our interactions now because that is complete and utter bullcrap.

Your arguments are made under the (incorrect) assumption that military members blindly follow orders. Without that ridiculous assertion, everything you say completely falls apart.

We're getting closer....

The assumption is that the military can SOOO control the information you receive that you won't know WHO you are firing on.

We have a uprising in FLA. The media will report the people as being terrorists or marxists or whatever necessary. You hear this. The call is made that U.S. troops are needed. They can simply place your post on Red Cycle and have everyone live in a tent city or whatever place where there aren't any televisions or radios. They have the power and authority to ban soldiers from accessing such devices.

The only updates you are receiving are coming from your Command. They can tell you whatever they want. You will be constantly trained and programmed. Also as I said, if need be they can extract soldiers that are native to FLA and reassign them.

After a month of this conditioning they can let you loose on FLA with briefs that marxist terrorists are burning the state down and YOU WILL FIRE.

Meh Waco was simple technology test one of many in a long time period of prepping for the dissolution of America

The UN sees this continent as a place the world should share, a coming together spot for all people an economic resource to prop up the globe... NOT independent nations.

The bigger picture here is far more important...

will they shoot or wont they? Doesn't much matter... when it's over we will welcome salvation from abroad by foreigners, we will welcome whatever government is installed after a year or two of horror and no Government at all... we will never want to see guns again, we will have lost faith in our own leaders, we will no longer of trust in our own current dominant class, those willing to fight will have been bleed out from both sides of the coin Military and Civilian and America will no longer exist except as part of a global governance, the troops that saved us will stay, we will be "Ethnically Balanced" to reflect the NWO for lack of a better turn with Asians claiming their demographic stake as existing populations are lowered and replaced with new waves of immigrants

And they have already won because the very act of fighting assures the population reductions they seek and makes intervention inevitable...

The only way to stop this would be a peaceful revolution as per Ghandi... and that's not American style is it?

A Massive tax revolt and support of a 3rd party is the only way to stop it and well... so many Americans will walk away from their precious Dems and Republicans eh? They wont because the dumbing down started in the 60's... the CIA fueled the dope.. the corporations provided the bad fast food... ever ask yourself if it can clog the arteries in your heart what it does to the capillaries in your brain? We are mainly too stupid to even see where it's all going which in the end is foreign absorption of America...

They will be wonderful, they will forgive our debt, they fight alongside our rebels and in the end America will fall and we will cheer as one and waltz right into a global government

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by cantyousee

 

Witless drones? Go to hell.

Based upon historical fact? More like based upon being misguided, misinformed, paranoid and prone to illogical conclusions.

Kent state was a situation in which you had guardsmen who were poorly trained and scared, which is a disastrous/dangerous combination. To come to the conclusion that the military is untrustworthy because of Kent State is incredibly short sighted and utter nonsense.

Waco wasn't a massacre caused by the military or government for that matter. It was caused by a dillusional bastard who thought he was Christ and broke federal laws. The fact that you side with the crazy cult is very telling.

Whatever makes you sleep at night.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by superman2012

 

I'll bite. I have been in multiple applicable situations. I was ordered to do something that I assessed as unlawful (taking someone out, firing upon a structure/vehicle, etc) and I didn't follow the order. This has been due to multiple reasons...thinking the "rifle" someone was carrying was actually not a rifle, seeing a woman/child in the line of fire/harms way, having a "feeling" that someone was really a bad guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Each time, I questioned the order by telling leadership what I was seeing and holding off on making a move. I was NEVER advised to just shut up and follow orders, not even close. Every single time whoever was in charge and I worked together to determine the actual situation.

We are human beings first, and although we all joined for different reasons, I have never met a fellow serviceman that joined just so they could get to kill people. It is also important to note that when I was given these orders, they were never given with nefarious intentions. Leadership thought they were telling me to kill what they believed were bad guys, didn't see civilians, etc.

Also, I am now one of those giving the order to fire to others...one of those you accuse of ordering unlawful/inhumane actions. I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that there are goddamned civilians out there such as yourself who think the way you do. It is hard to for me to fathom how misguided you are. People of your ilk believe they know the "truth" when they are in fact going thru life wearing blinders...different blinders than most, but blinders all the same.

And I think that is one part of the narrative that civilians don't understand. Military wants to avoid civilian casualties if at all possible. The military wants to avoid repeats of Mai Lai or Abu Garhib. We aren't bloodthirsty Nazis, we want to do the right thing.

Yes, I understand that. What happens when you personally don't fire on civilians, but, another one of your patriots do? You do understand that you will become the enemy don't you? Civilians see military as they see police, one cohesive hive mentality group. You will all be blamed for this. What happens if a father, mad with grief because his son/daughter was just shot, points a gun in your direction? What happens if you truly are a good guy, and you can conduct your own intelligence reports to find the trouble makers/killers, and a citizen shoots at you, just because people dressed as you, raped and killed their mother/sister/daughter? You going to fire back? Or talk? My guess is fire back. Then which side are you truly on?

reply to post by HamsterWarrior

I am completely unaware of how brainwashed we are. I guess it is because I'm brain-washed, huh? Where do you think this brain-washing occurs? Are we sent to a camp? Is it during basic training? These aren't rhetorical questions, I really want you to enlighten me...since I've been brain-washed and don't know and you obviously have all the answers.

With all due respect. If you fought in Iraq, or supported that war, you are brain-washed.

Originally posted by penninja
Meh Waco was simple technology test one of many in a long time period of prepping for the dissolution of America

The UN sees this continent as a place the world should share, a coming together spot for all people an economic resource to prop up the globe... NOT independent nations.

The bigger picture here is far more important...

will they shoot or wont they? Doesn't much matter... when it's over we will welcome salvation from abroad by foreigners, we will welcome whatever government is installed after a year or two of horror and no Government at all... we will never want to see guns again, we will have lost faith in our own leaders, we will no longer of trust in our own current dominant class, those willing to fight will have been bleed out from both sides of the coin Military and Civilian and America will no longer exist except as part of a global governance, the troops that saved us will stay, we will be "Ethnically Balanced" to reflect the NWO for lack of a better turn with Asians claiming their demographic stake as existing populations are lowered and replaced with new waves of immigrants

And they have already won because the very act of fighting assures the population reductions they seek and makes intervention inevitable...

The only way to stop this would be a peaceful revolution as per Ghandi... and that's not American style is it?

A Massive tax revolt and support of a 3rd party is the only way to stop it and well... so many Americans will walk away from their precious Dems and Republicans eh? They wont because the dumbing down started in the 60's... the CIA fueled the dope.. the corporations provided the bad fast food... ever ask yourself if it can clog the arteries in your heart what it does to the capillaries in your brain? We are mainly too stupid to even see where it's all going which in the end is foreign absorption of America...

They will be wonderful, they will forgive our debt, they fight alongside our rebels and in the end America will fall and we will cheer as one and waltz right into a global government

You are leaving out a very important equasion to the out come of this situation. Within this babylon that we have become there lies a group of individuals that is very important to God. This is God's country and there be God's people here. They are not the property of any conglomerate here on earth. God will destroy those who touch the apple of his eye and will save his own to inhereit it all. Let all take heed and think about which side of history you want to be on.

reply to post by HamsterWarrior

We are human beings first, and although we all joined for different reasons, I have never met a fellow serviceman that joined just so they could get to kill people.

Consider yourself lucky. A quick search on google will show you the ones you are lucky to have never met.

It is also important to note that when I was given these orders, they were never given with nefarious intentions. Leadership thought they were telling me to kill what they believed were bad guys, didn't see civilians, etc.

That is exactly my point.

Also, I am now one of those giving the order to fire to others...one of those you accuse of ordering unlawful/inhumane actions.

I did? When? Don't accuse me of something just because you are having troubles holding your emotions in check.

I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that there are goddamned civilians out there such as yourself who think the way you do. It is hard to for me to fathom how misguided you are. People of your ilk believe they know the "truth" when they are in fact going thru life wearing blinders...different blinders than most, but blinders all the same.

I may be blind to the detestable aspects of war, but, at least I'm not blinded by my patriotism. Anyone who served in Iraq, joined a war based on a lie. This one war exactly proves my point.

Edit: Does it piss you off more that you are out there risking your life for these "goddamned civilians"?

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
reply to post by cantyousee

 

.

Waco wasn't a massacre caused by the military or government for that matter. It was caused by a dillusional bastard who thought he was Christ and broke federal laws. The fact that you side with the crazy cult is very telling.

This last bit you type backs what I have been saying.

Maybe the guy was crazy and he broke some federal laws, but it didn't require a tank be rolled to his front door and everyone gunned down.

The guy was labeled a terrorist or whatever noun and people such as me and you saw him as being against us and we followed orders.

Like I said, some noun would be applied to an uprising and all of a sudden it would make perfect sense to a servicemember to treat them no different than the taliban.

If OWS had grown larger and say started talking about storming the WH or something to the effect, they would have been labeled as terrorists and guess what........YOU and ME would have opened fire on them.

So no....you're partially right......we wouldn't open fire on U.S. citizens. At least not until we have made them out to be something else....I'll give you that!

I don't care if those peole in Waco was sacrificing babies and hiding them under the alter. It is against the law for military to intercede in local matters. Posse cometatus. and like yoiu said, "we followed orders" witless drones.
You tell that to your maker when you stand before him. Those military people should have refused those orders. They could have arrested that man anytime they wanted to. There is no excuse and those who done it will answer. It is bad enough for a criminal government to come agaisnt it's citizens. it is entirely something else when the citizens own military attack them. Ignorant people who believe all the media spits out. That won't save you either. I would have resigned or quit johnny on the spot.

Originally posted by superman2012

Originally posted by LennayTheUndead

Originally posted by superman2012

Originally posted by LennayTheUndead
reply to post by oasisjack

 

Big fan of people who don't know # about how the military actually works telling me I "will" shoot civilians....get so tired of this unsubstantiated bull#...

I don't think anyone specifically said you. I'm a big fan of people that believe everyone talks about them (myself included)

. Are you denying that there will be people that will do what you say you won't?

I'm denying that this would even happen...with respect to the fact that there will always be the small handful of soldiers/situations that arise where action against civilians (right or wrong) is taken. People are acting like the military is going to wage war on Americans. Never happen.

edit on 31-1-2013 by LennayTheUndead because: (no reason given)

Not all Americans, only the ones that don't comply.

Fear mongering. There are and always have been and always will be Americans who "don't comply"...

reply to post by LennayTheUndead


If you don't like the answer, don't ask questions...

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by LennayTheUndead

 

If you don't like the answer, don't ask questions...

Funny, I don't recall asking you a question...

Originally posted by superman2012
Yes, I understand that. What happens when you personally don't fire on civilians, but, another one of your patriots do? You do understand that you will become the enemy don't you? Civilians see military as they see police, one cohesive hive mentality group. You will all be blamed for this. What happens if a father, mad with grief because his son/daughter was just shot, points a gun in your direction? What happens if you truly are a good guy, and you can conduct your own intelligence reports to find the trouble makers/killers, and a citizen shoots at you, just because people dressed as you, raped and killed their mother/sister/daughter? You going to fire back? Or talk? My guess is fire back. Then which side are you truly on?

Shrug. It all depends on what is going on. I've had a grief stricken father shove an AK-47 in my face, but I am alive and last I saw him, he was alive, so there is not a lot of black and white on the battlefield.

I agree with your point that, in some instances, what is right and wrong may not be as crystal clear as we imagine it. THose are the hard calls--a Mai Lai recreation would be easy to make a decision against, but some may not be so clear. Whereas I am not arguing that it is impossible that US military would fire on US civilians, what I am argueing is that is neither a fait accompli nor the course of the majority of soldiers and Marines.

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by HamsterWarrior

 

I am completely unaware of how brainwashed we are. I guess it is because I'm brain-washed, huh? Where do you think this brain-washing occurs? Are we sent to a camp? Is it during basic training? These aren't rhetorical questions, I really want you to enlighten me...since I've been brain-washed and don't know and you obviously have all the answers.

With all due respect. If you fought in Iraq, or supported that war, you are brain-washed.

See, I fought in Iraq, and by the same token, I could just as easily call you misinformed. These labels are beneath us and do not create informative discourse.

Originally posted by superman2012
I may be blind to the detestable aspects of war, but, at least I'm not blinded by my patriotism. Anyone who served in Iraq, joined a war based on a lie. This one war exactly proves my point.

Edit: Does it piss you off more that you are out there risking your life for these "goddamned civilians"?

edit on 1-2-2013 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)

BUt see, you are actually are blinded by your preconceived notions. Now I know you will go on about WMD and how they were (or were not) discovered in Iraq, but what people forget is that it is perfectly legal, by all of the laws of war, from Geneva to the Hague, to resume hostilities with a country who violated a cease fire agreement. One could say that it was none of our business to drive Sadaam out of Kuwait, but legally, when he violated the cease fire agreament, the second war was a legal and proper resonse.

I've risked my life to save civilians as have many an American soldier or Marine over there. You cannot understand just how strongly we want to save and protect civilians.




The kid above was caught in a cross fire between Sunni and Shia. HIs dad died, his mom died, but me and my corpsman went under fire to go get this wounded kid. My corpsman got hit (not bad) and we willed him back and patched him up. I haven't any better idea of how to show you that we do care for civilians that showing this to you and explaining this personal story.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Again, I'm not saying you personally are a bad guy. Just that they are there..some are even hiding as your friend. I think it is very commendable that you saved that child! I wish I could shake your hand.

For every one of you, though, you have to admit there is the polar opposite. The US entered Iraq because of the WMD that didn't exist. It was a lie. You could go in anywhere and have excuses for it, but, Iraq was justified using a lie at the time.