service men and women will fire upon civilians if ordered

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Thing is, that unlawful order can very quickly be changed to a LAWFUL order. We aren't talking about a few rogue officers, we're talking about orders from the POTUS.

Though all this maybe meaningless...I believe if there were ever a uprising the soldiers would be sent home if they wouldn't follow orders and they would then bring in soldiers fromt he U.N. and allow them to use American weaponry against us.

Our soldiers and veterans would then be delegated to guerilla warfare with small arms.

Even an order from POTUS could be considered unlawful.

Anyone go against the 2012 NDAA that he signed?

Originally posted by LennayTheUndead
reply to post by oasisjack

 

Big fan of people who don't know # about how the military actually works telling me I "will" shoot civilians....get so tired of this unsubstantiated bull#...

I don't think anyone specifically said you. I'm a big fan of people that believe everyone talks about them (myself included) . Are you denying that there will be people that will do what you say you won't?

I'm a little currious about the survey questions that were asked to determine these stats. I'm sure that most would confirm their pledge to the constitution and if asked would never fire on civilians. But if asked wether or not they would fire on Terrorists who happen to be American Citizens, I'm sure most would say yes. So all of a sudden "Survey says most military will shoot on American Citizens".....Its a load of crap!

Originally posted by superman2012

Originally posted by LennayTheUndead
reply to post by oasisjack

 

Big fan of people who don't know # about how the military actually works telling me I "will" shoot civilians....get so tired of this unsubstantiated bull#...

I don't think anyone specifically said you. I'm a big fan of people that believe everyone talks about them (myself included)

. Are you denying that there will be people that will do what you say you won't?

I'm denying that this would even happen...with respect to the fact that there will always be the small handful of soldiers/situations that arise where action against civilians (right or wrong) is taken. People are acting like the military is going to wage war on Americans. Never happen.

reply to post by tmeister182


That is exactly who i would be looking for!!!

reply to post by oasisjack


you have a point of sorts op,, and i sort of agree with you..

but why talk about it here? why not go onto military forums, military/troop youtube videos, not just you/me but as many people as poss and have these discussions there,, ok it might initially be met with negativity but at least seeds would be sewn and hopefully more people might question the propaganda. and when those questions start getting raised, perhaps that might act as a bit of a catalyst and give other troops that are more awake to real life that bit more confidence to talk about things??

but we really have all got to be more pro-reactive in stopping these terrorists taking more control!!

just my 2 cents..

reply to post by LennayTheUndead


never say never dude.. it all depends on how the propaganda is spun!!

what if there was an event/problem in the near future that caused a reaction and the only solution was to bring in un troops...!??

fingers crossed the superbowl goes without a drama!!

Originally posted by Dustytoad
... If it becomes shooting puppies, then it will stop soon after..

then you mean it is up to the media to portray it that way, right? because really that's how mainstream history is- whether or not they are portrayed as puppies or bomb throwers it's all based on how it is disseminated throughout the culture whether it be the military culture or civilian culture. I would worry more about UN troops kicking in my door than our own folk.

Originally posted by superman2012

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Thing is, that unlawful order can very quickly be changed to a LAWFUL order. We aren't talking about a few rogue officers, we're talking about orders from the POTUS.

Though all this maybe meaningless...I believe if there were ever a uprising the soldiers would be sent home if they wouldn't follow orders and they would then bring in soldiers fromt he U.N. and allow them to use American weaponry against us.

Our soldiers and veterans would then be delegated to guerilla warfare with small arms.

Even an order from POTUS could be considered unlawful.

Anyone go against the 2012 NDAA that he signed?

Take up arms for a spending bill?

Or do you mean sections 1021 and 1022 in particular? Since American Citizens haven't been rounded up and those provisions are in the process of being challenged in the courts and several states have been passing (or at least forming) bills in resistance to those sections, I would suggest that we in the military who disagree with those provisions are still at the "let the system and the law work phase." If a bill passes that you don't like, taking up arms is not the first step.

Are any of you people saying that military members would fire upon civilians actually in the military, or do you just know someone that is? I'm actually a military member and I have to say, anyone who believes that we would fire upon civilians if ordered are delusional and absolute idiots. I'm thinking that this belief probably stems from too much tv, too many movies, or too much listening to other misguided/misinformed fools here on ATS. Or maybe its because of the .0001% of troops that have committed atrocities?

The only line of thinking that I could have any sympathy for is all the collateral damage that has occurred in our recent efforts. To that argument, I would say that without a doubt this is 100% due to the nature of the enemy we are fighting and their willingness to put innocent men/women/children into harms way. Guess what? If you live in a house where bombs are being made, you will most likely get blown up (either by an inept terrorist or a JDAM) or shot.

For those that believe we would fire upon US civilians, do you not understand that we are in fact, US citizens as well? Do you not understand that our families/neighbors/friends are civilians? Do you not think that we are intelligent enough to understand that an order to take out an innocent civilian is in essence an order to take out someone we care about? My God, put away your over-the-top distrust for the government machine, actually use your brain and do some actual rational thinking, and reassess your line of thought.

Contrary to popular belief (on this website at least), military members are not brain-washed, slack-jawed idiots that blindly follow orders. Its a fact that we are not taught to blindly follow orders, but to always ensure that the order we are given is lawful (not sure if you know this, but we are only required to follow LAWFUL orders). Proclaiming that you believe a soldier/airman/sailor/marine would fire upon civilians is not only insulting and incredibly stupid, it is just plain wrong.

reply to post by NavyDoc


My apologies, I should have been more clear. Has there been any instances of anyone disobeying this? I'm sure that we will never hear about someone being detained like this, just as I am sure that we will never hear of someone disobeying this order. If you were ordered to detain someone, how could you be sure it was lawful or not? With the government/military being so compartmentalized, no one could blame anyone for following orders like this one. How could you truly know?

reply to post by HamsterWarrior


If they're labelled as terrorists you wouldn't either? This has been brought up in this thread and no one has given a good answer in line with your post.
If the government labels them terrorists, or says their baby killers/molesters, or any number of things they could say to destroy someone, you are telling me you would carry out an independant case to try to determine if what you are being told is true or not? If you served in Iraq, you definitely did not. Also, do you have the resources to carry this out? Can you say, "woah! hold on! I want to make sure what I'm doing is lawful!"? No, that is why there is a chain of command.

Originally posted by LennayTheUndead

Originally posted by superman2012

Originally posted by LennayTheUndead
reply to post by oasisjack

 

Big fan of people who don't know # about how the military actually works telling me I "will" shoot civilians....get so tired of this unsubstantiated bull#...

I don't think anyone specifically said you. I'm a big fan of people that believe everyone talks about them (myself included)

. Are you denying that there will be people that will do what you say you won't?

I'm denying that this would even happen...with respect to the fact that there will always be the small handful of soldiers/situations that arise where action against civilians (right or wrong) is taken. People are acting like the military is going to wage war on Americans. Never happen.

edit on 31-1-2013 by LennayTheUndead because: (no reason given)

Not all Americans, only the ones that don't comply.

Originally posted by HamsterWarrior
Are any of you people saying that military members would fire upon civilians actually in the military, or do you just know someone that is? I'm actually a military member and I have to say, anyone who believes that we would fire upon civilians if ordered are delusional and absolute idiots. I'm thinking that this belief probably stems from too much tv, too many movies, or too much listening to other misguided/misinformed fools here on ATS. Or maybe its because of the .0001% of troops that have committed atrocities?

The only line of thinking that I could have any sympathy for is all the collateral damage that has occurred in our recent efforts. To that argument, I would say that without a doubt this is 100% due to the nature of the enemy we are fighting and their willingness to put innocent men/women/children into harms way. Guess what? If you live in a house where bombs are being made, you will most likely get blown up (either by an inept terrorist or a JDAM) or shot.

For those that believe we would fire upon US civilians, do you not understand that we are in fact, US citizens as well? Do you not understand that our families/neighbors/friends are civilians? Do you not think that we are intelligent enough to understand that an order to take out an innocent civilian is in essence an order to take out someone we care about? My God, put away your over-the-top distrust for the government machine, actually use your brain and do some actual rational thinking, and reassess your line of thought.

Contrary to popular belief (on this website at least), military members are not brain-washed, slack-jawed idiots that blindly follow orders. Its a fact that we are not taught to blindly follow orders, but to always ensure that the order we are given is lawful (not sure if you know this, but we are only required to follow LAWFUL orders). Proclaiming that you believe a soldier/airman/sailor/marine would fire upon civilians is not only insulting and incredibly stupid, it is just plain wrong.

How long have you been in the service then and are you enlisted or officer?

Are you unaware of how programmed servicemembers are and the total control the military has over its members?

If citizens are labeled as terrorist or whatever other hot-button word...they will be fired upon.

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

My apologies, I should have been more clear. Has there been any instances of anyone disobeying this? I'm sure that we will never hear about someone being detained like this, just as I am sure that we will never hear of someone disobeying this order. If you were ordered to detain someone, how could you be sure it was lawful or not? With the government/military being so compartmentalized, no one could blame anyone for following orders like this one. How could you truly know?

I don't recall any instances of anyone disobeying those provisions, neither have I heard of any military detaining Americans based on those provisions either. I guess the answer is, you have to receive an order before you can tell if it is lawful or not. Detentions (arrests) in American so far have been done by law enforcement. OCONUS, on the battlefield, everyone shooting at you is treated like an enemy combatant when captured and the laws of armed conflict apply.

Until the military is told to do a Ruby Ridge like operation, or to pull somebody out of a house in Cincinnatti, this all is hypothetical.

How do you believe police can fire upon citizens? They are nowhere near as controlled or brainwashed as the military!

It begins with labels, as simple as "servicemember" and "civilian". With that, you all are already different from us!

Here's what would happen IF it were ever deemed necessary to have a sustained conflict with U.S. citizens:

1. There's an incident where citizens have risen up and wish to violently over throw our government in Florida. It's too large and may even be supported by law enforcement. The national Guard refuses to mobilize or whatever reason.

2. The State will request help and direction from the Fed level. The order will be given relieving the National Guard of said title. Federal soldiers and probably Canadian and British soldiers will be deployed to the armorey's and installation previously manned by the Guard. They will have orders to not allow ANYONE access to these facilities and be given shoot on sight orders.

So this will take the heavy weaponry from the hands of civilians.

3. If the conflict is controversial enough, the individual soldiers in the units deployed may be screened to determine where they grew up. In order to avoid sending Florida soldiers to police their friends and family.

4. The units involved will probably be placed in I believe it was "Red" cycle weeks or months before deployment. They will not have contact with the outside world and media. Cell phones will be taken, not internet access and no television. The entire units will live in either tents or gymnasiums or whatever.

There will be daily briefs and there will be a label given to the citizens of Florida. There will be very filtered details of happenings. The citizens of Florida will be viewed as terrorists. Something will be done to make it the fault of the civilians what's happening.

Our fellow soldiers are so programmed they will shoot you...

This is just a rushed example, I can do better...

Originally posted by DZAG Wright


Are you unaware of how programmed servicemembers are and the total control the military has over its members?

LOL. 25 years. Enlisted and officer. Combat arms and support. Active and reserve. Combat deployed and peacetime here and that above, with all due respect, is pure bunk.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


16 years, enlisted. How long have you been in the service? Are you enlisted or officer?

I am completely unaware of how brainwashed we are. I guess it is because I'm brain-washed, huh? Where do you think this brain-washing occurs? Are we sent to a camp? Is it during basic training? These aren't rhetorical questions, I really want you to enlighten me...since I've been brain-washed and don't know and you obviously have all the answers.

On a serious note, if you truly believe that we would fire upon civilians if ordered and would blindly do so...well, you are an idiot. That, or you are incredibly misguided, paranoid and mis-informed.

reply to post by superman2012


I'll bite. I have been in multiple applicable situations. I was ordered to do something that I assessed as unlawful (taking someone out, firing upon a structure/vehicle, etc) and I didn't follow the order. This has been due to multiple reasons...thinking the "rifle" someone was carrying was actually not a rifle, seeing a woman/child in the line of fire/harms way, having a "feeling" that someone was not really a bad guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Each time, I questioned the order by telling leadership what I was seeing and holding off on making a move. I was NEVER advised to just shut up and follow orders, not even close. Every single time whoever was in charge and I worked together to determine the actual situation.

We are human beings first, and although we all joined for different reasons, I have never met a fellow serviceman that joined just so they could get to kill people. It is also important to note that when I was given these orders, they were never given with nefarious intentions. Leadership thought they were telling me to kill what they believed were bad guys, didn't see civilians, etc.

Also, I am now one of those giving the order to fire to others...one of those you accuse of ordering unlawful/inhumane actions. I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that there are goddamned civilians out there such as yourself who think the way you do. It is hard to for me to fathom how misguided you are. People of your ilk believe they know the "truth" when they are in fact going thru life wearing blinders...different blinders than most, but blinders all the same.

I suspect that some would, just like I suspect that some wouldn't. The fact is, we do have a lot of good people in the military, and yes, even some representatives in Congress, and at the state and local levels. You would have a fracturing of the US. A civil war would be the most likely outcome.