Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?

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posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 09:08 PM
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We all ask this question at some point in our lives. Why are we here in this seemingly Godforsake place and how do we find God in the chaos? Why do I have free will, only to see that will torn apart by life? And on and on it goes. Mirrored with this, how amazing free will is and what a joy to express it. We find ourselves in times of great pleasure and joy when everything is going well and God is everywhere we look. We ask these questions like the swing of pendulum.

Consider this simple thought from RUMI the SUFI and GEDDI the LEE. First, Geddi Lee: Background Music, also linked below.

There are those who think that life is nothing left to chance (determinism),
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance (Providence).

----Are you of the mind that there is no free will? Man is simply following a destiny?

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive.
"The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign"-
Blame is better to give than receive.

------Or, do you judge God for the state of things?

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice (Seek the Light).
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice (To not choose is to choose).
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill; (Your choice can be to live in fear)
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

-----Here is the problem. Free will is still a choice. There is only ONE choice.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them- they weren't born in lotus-land.



From the Dhammapada

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.


All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.

----Defeated by our own actions, we often seek to blame anyone but our own reflected person.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

-------Only one choice in the end. Rumi will show you the answer to this.

Each of us-
A cell of awareness-
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

-------Life is fleeting. Fleet - to cause (time) to pass usually quickly or imperceptibly.



RUMI

RUMI

Why freewill is good for man.
God said, "Do thou grant his earnest request,
Enlarge his faculty according to his freewill.
Freewill is as the salt to piety,
Otherwise heaven itself were matter of compulsion.
In its revolutions reward and punishment were needless,
For 'tis freewill that has merit at the great reckoning.
If the whole world were framed to praise God,
There would be no merit in praising God.
Place a sword in his hand and remove his impotence,
To see if he turns out a warrior or a robber.
Because freewill is that wherewith 'we honor Adam,' 1
Half the swarm become bees and half wasps.
The faithful yield honeycombs like bees,
The infidels yield store of poison like wasps.
For the faithful feed on choice herbs,
So that, like bees, their chyle yields life-giving food,
Whilst infidels feed on filth and garbage,
And generate poison according to their food."
Men inspired of God are the fountain of life;
Men of delusions are a synonym for death.
In the world the praise "Well done faithful servant!"
Is given to freewill which is used with prudence.
If all dissolute men were shut up in prison,
They would all be temperate and devout and pious.
When power of choice is absent actions are worthless;
But beware lest death snatch away your capital!
Your power of choice is a capital yielding profit,
Remember well the day of final account!

Free will allows light to reveal what it hits.

RUMI

When the BELOVED shows not the light of His countenance?
LOVE desires that this secret should be revealed,
For if a mirror reflects not, of what use is it?
Knowest thou why thy mirror reflects not?
Because the rust has not been scoured from its face.

You are the image of God, the mirror of what He reveals. Simply clean the mirror and you have made the only choice that matters. God's will is the choice. His will is to give and receive by the law of Love. The thief takes. As far as I can see, this is the only choice of free will that is possible.

Where do you find that choice? Christ asked us to take His name. The name is the character we take. Taking the name in vain is taking the name and not the character. Love is that character.

edit on 29-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.
edit on 29-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 09:25 PM
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Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?


Can this conversation take place with out the mention of 'God', I'm just sayin'.



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by retirednature
 


Free will is a spiritual topic as much as anything else. If you don't like the word "God" being mentioned in tandem with free will, then you know where the door is.



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by retirednature
 


Free will is a spiritual topic as much as anything else. If you don't like the word "God" being mentioned in tandem with free will, then you know where the door is.


Ok, I'll play your game, and destroy your argument with ease:




Judging Others

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law

niv.scripturetext.com...

Great website by the way.

This chapter is my personal favorite
Although, I'm not big on religion or the paradigm of 'God'.

Anyways, the entire chapter expresses that an individual has freewill, in outlining the law of the prophets(I believe) and such.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

does this not imply freewill?

Anyways, the point I was getting at. Is that I'd love to take on this discussion in full length, removing any mention of 'God', kind of a battle of logic and such. Obviously, this is not going to be entertained.

It's pretty pathetic that you would go as far to tell me "then you know where the door is." Wasn't aware that you ran these parts. It's all yours lol. Have fun with that...


edit on 29-1-2013 by retirednature because: sp



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 10:34 PM
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You've posted this a number of times on ATS. It's written very well. Of course, the law has equal and opposite reactions. This is true. We can eliminate all reactions and actions as free will because one mirrors the others by our choice or inaction. We can be an object at rest or in motion and we can even be the unbalanced force that moves ourselves. Your analysis was formally my thought as well. Not currently. I have the choice to manifest, yet is what I manifest my own? Studies are showing that the subconscious knows a full 6 second before our consciousness what we will choose. It's a known fact. Am I really the one making those choices? Here is the paradox that has an answer.

God is good. He cannot make the choice to do evil. We can name many things we may think are evil, but the true definition is harming others apart from the will of God to give and receive. We can even take from God. The fact we can take is the result, not of God, but of us making the choice to go against that will to give and receive. Free will is the only choice we can make-to become a thief.

The two thieves on the cross represent the two types of thieves. There is one that does not recognize the error. There is one who sees the error and is sorry for it. You can't believe in God if you can't trust his will. Belief in the will must be accompanied by the actions in accordance with that will. This is the freedom we have. We can also choose to walk against the will; against the law; against the Spirit; against our fellow humans and so on.

This is a choice God cannot make. The correct will is for us to eliminate the freedom to choose the error. Why? What we fail to master masters us. This would be true with or apart from God. Chaos is only arranged into unity by effort and knowledge. The law is set to the standard of unity by choice.


Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.
edit on 29-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

That's called the illusion of free will.
It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find.
If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.

Do you know much about psychological projection?
In order to be "willing to accept" your illusion, one would need free will.
A person would have to have free will in order to "want answers" enough to "ask questions".
Here's some "small print" for you.
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

The arguement that God can't exist because we have free will is not logical.



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by retirednature



Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?


Can this conversation take place with out the mention of 'God', I'm just sayin'.


Can you make your eyes operate? Can you make your ears hear? Can you make the sun shine; Earth turn and so on? You think and move. Until you can order chaos into unity, with a solar system, heating source and soil to grow food, you are left depending on the one that arranges this all beyond your choice. You think and move. That's it. God does the rest. He is included in this conversation because the conversation would not be taking place apart from the Words we are given. Again, we didn't produce the breath we engage for blood flow the to brain so our distal phalanges could operate intelligence into this wave function of wifi to consciousness. It would be slightly embarrassing to try this apart form what has been provided to us. The least we can do is include the Creator in the conversation.

Just sayin'.

edit on 29-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


LMAO!!!

*applaud*




posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by retirednature



Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?


Can this conversation take place with out the mention of 'God', I'm just sayin'.


Can you make your eyes operate? Can you make your ears hear? Can you make the sun shine; Earth turn and so on? You think and move. Until you can order chaos into unity, with a solar system, heating source and soil to grow food, you are left depending on the one that arranges this all beyond your choice. You think and move. That's it. God does the rest. He is included in this conversation because the conversation would not be taking place apart from the Words we are given. Again, we didn't produce the breath we engage for blood flow the to brain so our distal phalanges could operate intelligence into this wave function of wifi to consciousness. It would be slightly embarrassing to try this apart form what has been provided to us. The least we can do is include the Creator in the conversation.

Just sayin'.

edit on 29-1-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)


What in the world did I just read? I'm sorry, but, no thanks.

The title of the OP was "Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?"

No mention of God, and I was wondering if you'd partake in a logical discussion about Free Will, Altruism, Objectivity, Virtue or Vice, Truth or Ignorance with out resorting to some ole' religious tag lines.

Have fun,

I found the door.




7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?


I sought, and found, thanks for opening the door.



Cmon, you resorted to making claim that because we do not make ourselves see, hear and make the earth spin and stars fly around, that it must be god.

Do you believe in Pandeism, I think we may find some commonalities there?

Anyways, I though the conversation was about "Free Will - Do you choose Altruism or Objectivism; Virtue or Vice; Truth or Ignorance?" and not God, sorry for intruding.
edit on 29-1-2013 by retirednature because: additional comment



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.
edit on 29-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


An unbelievably narrowcast set of assumptions in itself...this is!
The logic you have followed is your own...through your own FREE WILL...it is grossly, at fault...and all conclusion from it is erroneous as a result.

At the core...omnipotence and omniscience, as a requisite, do not have a necessarily actionable component (as assumed in your examples)...they indeed can, and are (on the whole) passive in experiential reality...they describe a quality of being, not an action...

A god who creates robots, does not exist...except in the minds of those who would accept no responsibility...there would be no point to this scenario, and is illogical in the extreme.

A God who confers choice and/or its master, FREE WILL...does not control robots (that do not have FREE WILL).

Being little flames from the great conflagration, created in his/her/its image (an attribute more or less in concurrence in all cosmologies), means we are, and have always been under the influence of our own FREE WILL.

Descriptions of the effects of this FREE WILL can be found in all the inane questions posed by the confused masses, as to the verity, or not, of it...the discussion of its veracity is surely not the musings and mullings of robots?!...this would be a stupid conclusion to come to (with the aid of a non-FREE WILL mind?!)...although, I must admit, at times, it seems this discussion does indeed take place between robotic minds...

The mechanism is simple, its results are far reaching and complex...suffice to say, it exists to install individual responsibility...otherwise, everything else falls away into robotland...robots have no need of responsibility, and therefore FREE WILL...and vice versa...

Denyers have to ask themselves some very confronting questions...

A99



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


Okay, Akushla? Buy yourself a dictionary. You don't understand anything about omniscience and omnipotence. And it would help if your Bible wasn't so vague. But if I'm so wrong, then prove it with scripture. Because I noticed that in your entire diatribe, you didn't post a single line of scripture disproving my assumptions.

Can you do better than that? Because the Bible says that "God" can see 1000 years into the future. From his previous record, it's ridiculous to think that he can see that far and not twist things to suit his own agendas. He's always done so.

Don't just accuse me of being stupid. Prove it to me.
edit on 30-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 11:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.
edit on 29-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


BRILLIANT. ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. You have been able to articulate the illusion of Free Will brilliantly. Sorry, I don't have any more words to describe this post but BRILLIANT.

And the whole analogy of the dots in a circle thing, many people in the bible talk about cycles. If you are interested about people in the bible knowing of the cycles, read Ecclesiastes. We can see the complex human emotions in David's writing after knowing the truth and he touches upon the cycles like you have.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99
 


Okay, Akushla? Buy yourself a dictionary. You don't understand anything about omniscience and omnipotence. And it would help if your Bible wasn't so vague. But if I'm so wrong, then prove it with scripture. Because I noticed that in your entire diatribe, you didn't post a single line of scripture disproving my assumptions.

Can you do better than that? Because the Bible says that "God" can see 1000 years into the future. From his previous record, it's ridiculous to think that he can see that far and not twist things to suit his own agendas. He's always done so.

Don't just accuse me of being stupid. Prove it to me.
edit on 30-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


Nobody has anything to prove to you. I debunked your little rant about freewill with one Chapter from the Bible, and you won't even respond to it.

It's a waste of time trying to have this conversation with you. You are always right, so is the bible, and so is your interpretation. You know what they call your type in the field of psychology? Must be lonely.. huh?



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99
 

Okay, Akushla? Buy yourself a dictionary. You don't understand anything about omniscience and omnipotence. And it would help if your Bible wasn't so vague. But if I'm so wrong, then prove it with scripture. Because I noticed that in your entire diatribe, you didn't post a single line of scripture disproving my assumptions.
Can you do better than that? Because the Bible says that "God" can see 1000 years into the future. From his previous record, it's ridiculous to think that he can see that far and not twist things to suit his own agendas. He's always done so.
Don't just accuse me of being stupid. Prove it to me.
edit on 30-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

very hard and disputable question. but if we do not ask such questions we do not reach the truth. not only 1000 years but as you said omniscience. this is the belief of monotheistic religions. forget the scriptures lets use our wisdom.

first:
without any doubt I have free will ! as Rumi says
"if I decide for my tomorrow, it is a reason of free will, if I regret for a bad act, it is a reason of free will, Divine books are full of to do and not to do, no one says to a stone to do and not to do "

second:
we say that God knows everything but this does not mean that he does not know that I have free will. this is a paradox. God's knowledge includes the concept of being free and not being free !
he knows well that fire has no free will but I have it.

third:
moreover knowledge itself can help us to predict. so consider the infinite knowledge of God, it is adequate !
many times we know that two cars that are moving towards each other will collide soon. but this is because of our knowledge and point of view. may be those drivers can not see the situation but this does not mean they have not free will.

fourth:
an interesting point is that if God has infinite knowledge, that knowledge will include itself, the God ! but if this knowledge means that there is no free will so God itself has no free will !!! this is a paradox again.

however we are not that free ! maybe a mixture of freedom and obligation. for example I did not choose to come in this world or my family, my gender, my shape, and ............ so it seems that there is a mixture of both freedom and obligation.

however this issue is deep as an ocean but this is enough for me that I can kill myself now. a SUICIDE !
and most likely God will not prevent me !! maybe he knows that I will never do that, because I fear the judgment day !!!



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 06:25 PM
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All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.


I know you prefaced these statements with the assumption that the Bible is true, but there is a contradiction within this logical deduction.

The specific contradiction is as follows: If we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned.

However, right before this statement, you state, again prefaced with the assumption of what the people in the Bible say is a major truth, "All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe.

So how do we know if we aren't playing our roles if whatever happens is due to the allowance of God?

I think the whole free will thing only applies to choosing between life, afterlife in Heaven, or death, a Sheol-like state where one enters to think of the events of their life, and this choice of free will happens before birth in the physical.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by retirednature
 



21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


That's what you call free will? Do what I say or burn in hell for all of eternity? Where I'm from, we call that 'coercion'.



posted on Jan, 31 2013 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
I think the whole free will thing only applies to choosing between life, afterlife in Heaven, or death, a Sheol-like state where one enters to think of the events of their life, and this choice of free will happens before birth in the physical.


do you mean that I can not hit my head to wall ! but I am sure I can. and I am sure that God is powerful to prevent me !! so I am free but God's will includes my will. he has the upper hand but I have free will to do it.
moreover before birth I was nothing, how can a nothing decide to be or not to be.



posted on Jan, 31 2013 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by maes2
 


As hard as these people try, no one has been able to refute my first post in this thread. For every single second in every single tiny space of existence in this whole universe, "God" says yes or no. Because he's been given every scrap of power that has ever existed, the moment he stops saying 'yes' or 'no' the whole universe will freeze because it has lost the continuity of his approval.

"Famine? Sure. War? Sure. Disease? Sure. Rape? Sure. False prophets? Sure. Vanity? Sure. Gluttony? Sure. Someone took my name in vain? OH HELL NO!!! Let me delete that file real quick...see? That moment never happened. It sure is good to be a god."

That's the problem with making your god all-powerful. There's a reason our Congress can veto the President. Who is supposed to veto "God"?
edit on 31-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2013 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by maes2
 


As hard as these people try, no one has been able to refute my first post in this thread. For every single second in every single tiny space of existence in this whole universe, "God" says yes or no. Because he's been given every scrap of power that has ever existed, the moment he stops saying 'yes' or 'no' the whole universe will freeze because it has lost the continuity of his approval.

"Famine? Sure. War? Sure. Disease? Sure. Rape? Sure. False prophets? Sure. Vanity? Sure. Gluttony? Sure. Someone took my name in vain? OH HELL NO!!! Let me delete that file real quick...see? That moment never happened. It sure is good to be a god."

That's the problem with making your god all-powerful. There's a reason our Congress can veto the President. Who is supposed to veto "God"?
edit on 31-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



Personally, I see no problem. Why? Not everything has been explained and it wouldn't be wise to jump the gun. Secondly, some events are a product of mankind's own faults. Just like in the US when we blame the President for things that isn't his job to do like control of gas prices, we blame God for the products of our own actions. He allowed it to happen and when we try to find a solution, He will allow it.

Another thing, if we go under the assumption that God is all powerful, wouldn't it be logical to assume that He has everything in control? So just relax and truly LOVE. This is the solution to the worlds ills and not the artificial conventional idea of love that is popular within in the 21st century.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

And this love isn't just for Christians because it's in the Bible.

Secondly Maes2, you can choose to bang your head on the wall, but how do you know if it was not written beforehand that you would choose to do this? Simply put, the majority of us do not know what is written beforehand... Scope of human perspective is limited to a point on a time line.


1 Corinthians 13:12
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


In here Paul, in my opinion, is basically saying it doesn't matter the prophecies you are told or the knowledge that you hold, love is the most important thing to fathom, hold dear to, and exercise, Then he goes on to say that he will understand everything that happened when he sees God face to face and He explains everything to him





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