Ancient Bomb Shelters

Originally posted by babybunnies

Originally posted by undinemyth
reply to post by Grifter42

 

"I think that mankind has been to this level of technological advancement before, and suffered such a catastrophic event that it wiped the record clean"

What have you read or seen, that gives you this opinion?

2nd line.

edit on 29-1-2013 by undinemyth because: to add op quote

There are ancient Sanskit texts that talk about a huge war between cities with flying machines and weapons used that are eerily similar to descriptions of nuclear weapons and diseases afterwards similar to radiation sickness.

no, there really are not... ancient hindu texts are abominably misrepresented by AA theorists and those who write mystery books - these texts (thre hindu ones, not the spurious von danichen types) are available in translation in many languages, read them for yourself.

Originally posted by TheLieWeLive
reply to post by Grifter42

 

I think you're right. The only monuments or megalithic structures left around the world are all stone. It's the only thing that can stand the test of time. Let's imagine that our ancients did have airplanes and cars or something similar. By now there would be nothing left of these structures after the weather and erosion consumed them. This would have happened quickly and most likely after a thousand years these objects would be no more. Knowledge to rebuild would also be quickly lost.
I can drive and work on a car but I can't build one from scratch. I'm not talking about assembling one but rather building one from the ground up as in gathering the right ore's and plastics and building parts from molds. How many people can? If a cataclysmic event came and wiped out a large portion of society how long would it be before we had no more working vehicles today? After a couple hundred years who ever was left would most likely be clueless on how the vehicle even operated. They wouldn't even know how to refine the fuel to run them. After a few more hundred years they would only be fantastical stories about them as all the vehicles would have rusted and eroded back into the Earth.

This is why I think we are left piecing history back together now.

What you and others have said here, is one of the biggest arguments against specialisation.

It's all very well, having experts and professors, specialists and so on...but during a cataclysm those relative few with most of the technical expertise, will die just as easily as someone who knows virtually nothing about anything.

Then the knowledge is gone forever.

It's clear from emerging geological research that this HAS happened several times in our remote past, the latest being estimated to have been around 13kya (massive cometary impacts, end of ice age, the deluge, younger dryas mini ice age)

Much would have been lost, massive global animal and plant die offs, and the human populations reduced to very low numbers, maybe a few thousand worldwide, or even as low as hundreds.

I think it would be wise to begin educating our people across a broad spectrum, doing away with exclusive specialisations except where impractical not to, and training everybody to at least have a broad spectrum of practical engineering and scientific based knowledge....should the worst happen again.

Originally posted by canucks555
If the cataclysm was caused by volcanism (ie: the earth folding in on itself and the surface becoming molten rock) -then there would certainly be no traces of past intelligent life remaining. The earth is indeed old, You never know I guess

Mostly correct but there is the possibility of finds becoming entombed in said vulcanism (pyroclastic flows, lahars, etc) and therefore being preserved. Although unless future species develop an interest in archeology i am not so sure that preservation would serve any useful purpose!

I think that you could be onto something there OP.

What if ALL of the caves where paintings were found had been used as a shelter from some disaster a long long time ago.....then the people staying there would have painted their memories and perhaps their gods, rituals, habits, etc to immortalize them for future generations. and eventually, they left those places to re-conquer the world.

We might never know what REALLY happenned back then but this is definitely a possibility, right? We just have no way of proving this.

Originally posted by Teye22
I think that you could be onto something there OP.

What if ALL of the caves where paintings were found had been used as a shelter from some disaster a long long time ago.....then the people staying there would have painted their memories and perhaps their gods, rituals, habits, etc to immortalize them for future generations. and eventually, they left those places to re-conquer the world.

We might never know what REALLY happenned back then but this is definitely a possibility, right? We just have no way of proving this.

most cave paintings are datable due to organic compounds being used for paint, charred materials being found there (eg the lamps that were used as light, many of which have been found), gloss on top of the paintings etc etc.

they were ofc immortalising their lives and practices, gods etc, just not due to earth changing cataclysm

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


No, I have not explored the oceans. The only coral reefs I have been to were in West Virginia. Beautiful corals there. Red, brown, blue and white. I have studied the rock layers on nearly every mountain in West Virginia. I have studied thousands of road cuts in North Carolina and even more construction sites. I have panned a thousand streams looking for gold or precious gems. Funny thing about streams, they catch everything. The stream behind my house begins less than a mile from my house. Yet in it are multitudes of small bits. Those bits are of glass and metal and paint. It is obvious man has lived here for a long time. The remains of technology are beyond obvious.

If they existed elsewhere they would be evident. You cannot hide mankind's trash. It is literally everywhere. It will still be everywhere a million years from now.

Now, were there sentient dinosaurs millions of years ago? Possibly. But they did not have satellites, did not have space exploration, and there are zero remains of any technology or cities. Everything erodes. Everything turns into tiny bits in layers of rocks. Those layers always come to the surface. The dirt I stand on everyday began as a an eruption from a volcano now known as Morrow Mountain. It is ash, pumice and run off from an island that existed in the Iapetus ocean. Had there been a technological civilization on that island the evidence would be in the layers of rock. But there is no evidence. Because no civilization existed.

I am one of those people who understand how a car works, a computer works, how a nuclear reactor works, how just about anything works. I have nothing to do every day except learn new things. Something I delight in. I go to conspiracy sites looking for the real mysteries in the world. Not bigfoot, not crop circles, not the Bermuda Triangle, as these are not real mysteries, but diversions and a way to keep the simple minded occupied.

I would love to find evidence of some past civilization. I keep my eyes open everywhere I go. I still look for it under every rock. But as of yet there is none. My theory is the only one that fits the evidence. It is not aliens as it is us who are the "aliens". The light skinned, blue eyed people who are so much more advanced than any other people on this planet. We are not from here. All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

Somewhere else, on another planet far away. A planet created as a home for us long ago. It too may have people on it like this one did. When we get there the cycle will begin once again. as it has been for possibly millions of years.

reply to post by Robonakka

But they did not have satellites, did not have space exploration, and there are zero remains of any technology or cities

satellites decay their orbits unless something is correcting it. Ours dont last even 30 years on their own. They would turn to ash in seconds upon hitting our atmosphere. All cities and equipment would revert to its base elements, completely disintegrate in less than a thousand years if no one was caring for it.

You ever seen those "mint" cars packed away in the 50´s in time capsules...they emerge a metal brick less than a hundred years later. Or those WW2 fighter planes that turned up, or anything from WW2? It is all hunks of metal and rot.

The evidence we should focus on is linguistic, conceptual, and cultural. Historical records of ANY kind and everything we CAN dig up. DNA is HUGE too....

You also did not address how coral forms at almost 3 times the depth it can which implies the entire land mass sunk. I mean the times we are talking about are so remote we have to study plate tectonics and geology in general in addition to a whole host of disciplines just to get close to what may have happened so long ago.

for example.

Raising the Tibetan Plateau

Nearly 100 million years ago, India separated from Africa as the supercontinent Gondwanaland broke up. From there the Indian plate moved north at speeds of around 150 millimeters per year—much faster than any plate is moving today.

The Indian plate moved so fast because it was being pulled from the north as the cold, dense oceanic crust making up that part of it was being subducted beneath the Asian plate. Once you start subducting this kind of crust, it wants to sink fast (see its present-day motion on this map). In India's case, this "slab pull" was extra strong.

Another reason may have been "ridge push" from the other edge of the plate, where new hot crust is created. New crust stands higher than old ocean crust, and the difference in elevation results in a downhill gradient. In India's case, the mantle beneath Gondwanaland may have been especially hot and the ridge push stronger than usual too.

geology.about.com...

if I wanted to say that India has NO evidence of any technological remains from the times we are arguing then I better dig up TIBET! to be sure....

There is no other way of knowing based solely on physical evidence.

Either way and like I said before, the "aliens did it" argument sounds exactly like the "god did it" argument. I am not a man of faith. My spirituality ends where my skin begins. I have faith in me and my spirit. The rest has to prove itself with facts or a solid theory based on all available data applicable.

Aliens may exist, but an advanced HUMAN civilization seeding ours is JUST AS plausible as them doing it, if not more based on the evidence....

Originally posted by stirling
It would be foolish to believe the archaelogists time lines....They have been caught cheating too many times already......

Originally posted by stirling
The earth is four billion yrs old.....

Surely I'm not the only one that sees the contradiction here.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by stirling
It would be foolish to believe the archaelogists time lines....They have been caught cheating too many times already......

Originally posted by stirling
The earth is four billion yrs old.....

Surely I'm not the only one that sees the contradiction here.

Harte

you are no doubt aware of this and have encountered it many times on these boards already, but the words "are swine you pearls to casting" come to mind. props to you tho

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


What time frame are we talking about? If it was in the last 250,000 years (which is the timeframe of human existence) then geology is not going to tell us much. We would find the remains of mines and roads. There are areas of Earth where nothing has changed in millions of years. Those places have roads that will be there for a lot longer than people will be.

If we are talking about geological time then there would be nothing left but odd layers of sediment here and there. And anything in that time frame would not be human. I did not completely discount non human civilizations. I only said there is no evidence.

most cave paintings are datable due to organic compounds being used for paint, charred materials[...]etc.

Dating organic compounds found in the paint in cave paintings does not date the paintings, it dates the paint. Tribal/shamanic rock art is periodically 'refurbished' in order to keep it alive and vivid(no doubt there are esoteric reasons as well). The implication that dating the paint in rock art tells us anything except for when it received its most recent touch up seems, to me, to be absurd.

For ex., iron oxide--i.e. rust--stains rock quite well and delivers a bold orange-red, which stands out very well on a limestone wall.

Let's say a catastrophe hits and I am one of the few survivors worldwide(worst luck). After a certain amount of adventure and hardship(say enough for a Tolkien trilogy), I decide it's time to settle down. What use adventuring(ask I), risking my life and saving the world, when the world--relatively speaking--has already been destroyed and there's nothing to save? No use at all(says I). So, I find a good cave on a hillside near the ocean, then spend a year or so making the place home--water catchment, sanitation, smokehouse and weir, scouting game trails, etc..
Then I get bored. I spend a lot of long nights attempting to design and construct various apparatus for the alchemical distillation of spirits, on the theory that occasionally imbibing such a potion may help bolster my sinking ones. One night, having forced down a respectable amount of SPP-42t(Spirit Potion Project, attempt #42, test batch) and waiting for my spirits to raise or my liver to quit, my eye happens on the faint markings I made on a small portion of cavern wall when working out some equipment-related issues during SPP-7. I drew the diagrams using my index finger, which I dipped in the layer of rust on a cast-iron stove door I had found. Looking at those markings and that expanse of cavern wall make me remember the days back before the world ended(O, Discordia!) when I used to get in debates on ATS over whether or not the world was gonna end, or whether there was any real archaeological evidence that there had been an advanced civ previous to ours, and whether it was all just being covered up.
I decide that there probably was evidence that had been covered up, and furthermore, should the human race somehow survive and rebuild, it would happen again. It would be engendered and propagated by the kinds of people who think that whatever a place looks like when they first see it is How its Supposed to Be, because they think the world is a static system, even if they live 2k ft. above sea level in a hilly place where the bedrock is full of marine fossils. Such people seem to have a predictable progression of motivations behind their actions regarding new, radical but genuine discoveries. First, they treat them with open contempt because they are 100% sure such things cannot be true. They go on record as saying so, thus publicly staking their reputation on the discovery being found to be false in one way or another...thereby practically guaranteeing that they will fight tooth and nail against any advancement of said discovery toward becoming accepted theory.
In other words, trolls. Unless none of the people who both survive the cataclysm and subsequently have children are carriers of the Troll gene, Trolls will continue to manifest within the human race, and they will Troll archaeology when it comes 'round again.
I decide I'll get the jump on those trolling bastards by trolling them first from way back here in (their) ancient past. I grab the cast-iron door with its excellent coating of rust, dip my fingers, and go right to work making a series of fantastical images on the cavern wall, having completely forgotten about SPP-42t, mainly because at this point I'm seriously drunk.

Over the next couple of days, I work on Project Troll the Future(PTF) while working off my hangover from SPP-42. Then, during one of my frequent 15 min. breaks(union rules) I was standing outside wishing I had a cigarette when I saw a girl dart across an open area on the hillside across from me, looking like she was fleeing something. I grabbed my kit and went after her, having decided maybe there was something left worth saving after all.

20,000 years later, a Troll stands before the cavern wall which is now rich in colors, saying the cave had been visited periodically by tribal shamans for rituals and to touch up the pictographs, which depicted the fundamental roots of their religion.
"The creator god RA, with a fog of weariness round his head from his previous failed attempts at creation, finally manages to make the world, shown here as a large stone ball with crystals of divinity growing from it in various places. Tol, the Deceiver, becomes angry when he sees this and demolishes the crystals, plunging the world into darkness. Organics in the pigments date to 800BP. It's quite remarkable."

The End

reply to post by Tsurugi


You know what WILL last? It'll outlast you, and it'll outlast me, and all of our descendants? Nuclear waste.
There are trains of thought about that. You see, it isn't easy to put Pandora back in her box.
Thousands of years from now, when this civilization has fallen, if another arises, places like Yucca Mountain are going to become tombs for anyone who's unwary of the signs. When civilization's fallen, who's going to teach people the universal symbol for radiation? Civil Defense? They're long gone.

reply to post by Grifter42


You're absolutely correct about the lifetime of such materials.

As to "who will teach them", why, that's easy: they will teach themselves. In our own history, areas that seemed weirdly barren--or places where humans began to fall apart in gruesome ways after hunting there--are made taboo in the tribal structure. They don't have to know why it's taboo; this is why religion is an important part of cultural development. Eventually, a culture will develop the technology (or perhaps mental powers, who knows) to see the reason for the strange death in the taboo area, and they will focus some study on that area.

I assume you've heard of NORMs? They are not exactly rare, but they are usually too deep to affect the surface. Either that stuff is natural, or we've been on this merry-go-round a while, hehe. But while the areas or places where they are found is no longer taboo, the subject remains taboo. Probably because the average person has been fed so much bullshizzz re: radiation that people in the field are afraid that common knowledge(is there such a thing? I ask you) of NORMs would result in the same kind of panic and mass hysteria everyone used to envision if the reality of UFOs were made common knowledge.
Round and round we go.

I'm not so familiar with the concept of NORMs, but from what I've read,these elements that lie within aren't too dissimilar to the fuels and byproducts of a nuclear reactor. Raises interesting questions indeed.

Have you ever heard of the ancient indian cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro? When they were first excavated, the archaelogists found bodies. Lots of them, as if they had been killed off suddenly. They tested the remains for radiation, and it was fifty times greater than normal levels.

An ancient Sanskrit text, the Mahabharata, describes something much like a nuclear blast:

A single projectile charged with all the power in the Universe...An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as 10,000 suns, rose in all its splendor...it was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes an entire race.

The text goes on to describe the symptoms of radiation sickness.

"The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. Their hair and nails fell out, pottery broke without any apparent cause, and the birds turned white. After a few hours, all foodstuffs were infected. To escape from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves into the river."

It's almost uncanny, how it matches up.

What was once will be again.

Originally posted by Grifter42
Have you ever heard of the ancient indian cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro? When they were first excavated, the archaelogists found bodies. Lots of them, as if they had been killed off suddenly. They tested the remains for radiation, and it was fifty times greater than normal levels.

An ancient Sanskrit text, the Mahabharata, describes something much like a nuclear blast:

A single projectile charged with all the power in the Universe...An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as 10,000 suns, rose in all its splendor...it was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes an entire race.

The text goes on to describe the symptoms of radiation sickness.

"The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. Their hair and nails fell out, pottery broke without any apparent cause, and the birds turned white. After a few hours, all foodstuffs were infected. To escape from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves into the river."

It's almost uncanny, how it matches up.

The reason it's so uncanny is that the quote you gave is nowhere to be found in the Mahabharata or any other ancient Vedic text. Click here for the info.

It's the fabrication of David Hatcher Childress, from his "book" Lost Cities of Ancient Lemuria and the Pacific.

It's his re-written version of a similar total line of bull that first appeared in The Morning of the Magicians (1960) by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier.

But you don't have to believe me. Try finding it yourself: The Mahabharata.

The verses this lie was apparently trying to glom onto were tracked down by an ATS member about, oh, six or seven years ago now. Turns out that they come from several different books of the Mahabharata and are completely unlike what you quote. For example, nobody's fingernails "fell off." A plague of rats caused by the weapon was so plentiful that they were eating the fingernails off people as they slept (the weapon caused many things to simply materialize, including worms and such in people's dinners and, as I said, rats out of nowhere.)

If you're ambitious, or if you really are curious and not just "wanting" to believe this horse hockey, you could probably find the posts, but those posts are not from the OP of the thread.

If you do decide to look, I recommend using Google. Just type in your keywords followed by Site: abovetopsecret.com and Google will search this site for you. It's better than the search function here.

Harte

Then I apologize. It seems I have been fed erroneous information. Learn something new every day.

Originally posted by Grifter42
Then I apologize. It seems I have been fed erroneous information. Learn something new every day.

The main thing to take away from this Grifter is to always check on fantastical claims made by suspect sources.

If you learned that, then you've acquired a large part of wisdom.

Harte

There could have been some civilization that predates what we know, but there's no way it was as advanced as we are today. Some examples off the top of my head that could stand the tests of time are various metal components of devices - sure much could have rusted away but if there was anything close to what we have today something would have survived somewhere. encased in rock, lost in tar, preserved in a bog, etc. Even if the actually device/tool its self was completely eroded into an unrecognizable form the alloys present in it would still be there. Alloys that could not have been produced using what we believe to be contemporary techniques. Another example would be satellites. We have had stuff in space since the 60's. if there was a past civilization anywhere close to us they would have had something left drifting around up there that would't be touched by time. Another possible thing left behind is radiation. Humans leave all kinds of radioactive crap lying around power plants and what not. I just don't think it feasible that a previous civilization anywhere close to us could have existed. Not saying that I don't think SOMETHING predates us, just not anything close to what we have now.

Who's to say that people a couple thousand years from now wouldn't see a place like Fukushima as just another site for mining radium, and uranium, and other elements.

"Hmm, this site in (Whatever future people call Japan) is really rich in Uranium ore. Good for us."

When we see these iron mines, and veins of precious metals, have we ever stopped to think they might be left over wiring, and facilities of some great underground civilization? No, that would be crazy, according to some folks. But I don't think it's all that crazy, to be honest.

Originally posted by Grifter42
Who's to say that people a couple thousand years from now wouldn't see a place like Fukushima as just another site for mining radium, and uranium, and other elements.

Perhaps because Fukishima is not rich with uranium and radium?

Originally posted by Grifter42
When we see these iron mines, and veins of precious metals, have we ever stopped to think they might be left over wiring, and facilities of some great underground civilization? No, that would be crazy, according to some folks. But I don't think it's all that crazy, to be honest.

Yet iron ore is not iron, and the "veins" of iron ore you mention are tens (and hundreds) of feet wide.

That's one damn fat piece of coax.

Harte