You don't know God and neither do I. Let me introduce you.

You may be working under a unclear premise when it comes to my belief. I see the same message emerge from Rumi the Sufi. I see it in the Dhammapada. I see it in nearly everything I read and every movie I see. Once you have the correct symbols at root meaning, the original seed is simple to understand. From that seed, branching from the roots, there is only one story. Where do we find the ONE story outlined in its root form? The Bible. The only paradox we see in the Bible comes from placing God in our box of theology. God is not in that box, he is trying to take you out of it.

Here is an example. What do the words of the Dhammapada tell you here?

Chapter 1 - Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

Who is the OX? That's the Father sitting in the opening of the tent. LINK He is the strength of the house. The house is made by the builder (Mind). Christ said, "I and the Father are one." Go back to the OP. Read why this is true. Why is the OX pulling a cart and what does the wheel turning represent? Jesus said, "You must be born again." Revelation says you must overcome. The wilderness contains a burden. The beast must be overcome with intellect. Why does he pull the cart? He lacks love. If the Animal is necessary, the there is a reason. Read the last part where it tells you the markings of the LAW. Hate cannot dispel hate. Only love can dispel hate.

RUMI

People build these sacred monuments for a particular
reason: either to display their generosity
for the sake of fame, or to gain a reward in heaven.
God should be the true object in honoring the
saints, their tombs and graves. The saints do not
need to be honored; they are an honor to themselves.
If a lamp desires to be placed up high, it wants
this for the sake of others, not for its own sake.
What does a lamp care whether it is high or low?
It is still a lamp shedding light. But a lamp wants
its light to reach others. The sun, if it were not in
the height of the heavens would still be the same
sun, only the world would fall into darkness. So
the sun attains its height not for its own sake, but
for the love of others. The saints, too, have gone
beyond such things as above and below, and the
worship of people.

You are asking me how I hear the voice. The same way any of us can. Light reveals what it hits and this is the voice that shows us what the light says. When truth is heard clearly, it resonates with what is already there. Light only reveals what it hits. Read this poetry without any notions of anything in your mind for who it is from or what it says. Just listen. Realize you are the one he is describing, even if the topic is a reed flute.

Rumi Masnavi

Allow your intellect to listen without judging. Pause between and listen to what happens. The voice that is true will be heard by reflection. The one that reaches a divide will stop the light from being seen. Why? Light reveals what it hits. Don't worship the light. Simply listen to what it is revealing about you.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

You don't need to know God. You need to know God knows you. Metacognition is the process of knowing what you know. Intuitively, we know God knows us. It's a given. When you hear the voice, you know the one calling.

Let's assume God is real for this discussion.

What I don't understand is... when you heard that voice. When you heard that calling. How do you know it's the God of the Christian Bible that you hear? How do you know it's not Shiva or Ganesha or Allah or another? Now if you're thinking 'one true God' then okay. Understood. I am saying let's assume God is real. A one true God. What I am really asking is... when you heard the voice of God, why are you taking that as affirmation of Christianity? Why are you taking that as God dismissing other religions? If you feel or hear or sense the presence of God, that's fantastic. But don't you think it's dangerous and insulting to God to assume he agrees with any particular bible? Why can't it just be you feel the presence and therefore you believe in God.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

Dude was just saying that if you are really interested, you should read all texts and not confine yourself within only a couple of books just like what religion does... lol..

Most Christians dare not touch gnostic scripture...

SO if they choose to stick to the bible... theres only 4 books that are needed to understand him... Which are the ones where his actual words were recorded.

They worship him as God... Yet happily listen to what any person within said book might have said about him...

You might also notice that instead of actually reading what HE said, they try to tell others what he actually meant according to their churches teachings as opposed to reading what was actually said.

As if they know what he said better then HE did

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. In my previous post to the OP I said I was inquiring not about hearing God, or feeling God's presence, rather how one from that reaches affirmation of any bible.

If for instance I had an NDE. Experienced a profound all-loving all-encompassing light that I knew to be nothing other than God, and was completely convinced it was real. I might come back with the conviction God is real in 'waking life'. Good example since many NDE'ers have claimed this. My point is NOT that.

My point is this. For OP and for any religious person. How did one get from point A to point B. Point A being belief in God and Point B being the belief in a particular religious dogma.

If I had come back from that NDE. Had God conviction. Had not experienced anything during that experience to warrant any affirmation towards say Islam, as nothing during the experience was related to Islam. Why would I become a Muslim?

The Cheshire Cat that just replied to me basically said he's read it all (various religions, etc) and only one rang true. That's a reasonable reply, but it's wholly lacking as a satisfying answer to my question.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

IF you want to know God... look to his son...

Not the books outside of the gospels...

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

It doesn't matter where you look. The light reveals what it hits. As I stated above, the truth of salvation is with the Son and the doctor came for the sick, not the well. The gift is not ours to earn. Taking the name means taking the Character of Jesus. The character is love and giving. Paul preached this same message. The Dhammapada reveals the same. Rumi states the same. Even counterfeit messages reveal the same message in the mirror of the one truth. Love others and give instead of take. Light can only reveal what it hits.

The law is for the one who breaks it. It regulates the thief and protects the innocent. What is the law? To do God's will. What is God's will? To give and receive, but never take. God's will and law is love. Love can only give. What is given must always be first earned. Can salvation be earned? No, God must give it. Can we gain the gift by works? No, only the gifts YOU give can be gained by works, otherwise, the gift that was earned for you would be unnecessary. Are works a reflection of love? Yes. Taking the name of Christ requires that the name is not taken in vain. How is it taken in vain? The name is the character of what it represents.

The paragraph above is from the OP.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I could be wrong but some of that commentary was hard to discern between the scripture. I think maybe some missed it to begin with.

Think it through. What is being said by both the scripture of the comments I make around it. They align.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Excuse me??

I read it all.

I am saying 'others' might have missed the commentary. Hence that reply you got from that other member.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. In my previous post to the OP I said I was inquiring not about hearing God, or feeling God's presence, rather how one from that reaches affirmation of any bible.

If for instance I had an NDE. Experienced a profound all-loving all-encompassing light that I knew to be nothing other than God, and was completely convinced it was real. I might come back with the conviction God is real in 'waking life'. Good example since many NDE'ers have claimed this. My point is NOT that.

My point is this. For OP and for any religious person. How did one get from point A to point B. Point A being belief in God and Point B being the belief in a particular religious dogma.

If I had come back from that NDE. Had God conviction. Had not experienced anything during that experience to warrant any affirmation towards say Islam, as nothing during the experience was related to Islam. Why would I become a Muslim?

The Cheshire Cat that just replied to me basically said he's read it all (various religions, etc) and only one rang true. That's a reasonable reply, but it's wholly lacking as a satisfying answer to my question.

edit on 29-1-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

If you have a question feel free to ask it.... I have nothing to hide

I didn't see any question in your first reply to me... which is why I replied accordingly

reply to post by Akragon


Ok I appreciate that

But I feel I laid enough out there that the question can be inferred.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Excuse me??

I read it all.

I am saying 'others' might have missed the commentary. Hence that reply you got from that other member.

My fault. Misunderstood your words.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Akragon

 

Ok I appreciate that

But I feel I laid enough out there that the question can be inferred.

Which I've already explained the best I could...

I've studied for years... and all things lead me back to the gospels

Its not the dogmatic theology in the Christian religion, or any other for that matter...

What he said was Truth... That being, Love is the path

reply to post by EnochWasRight

You may be working under a false premise when it comes to my belief.

You referred to yourself as a Christian. From that I took a stab. If I am working under a false premise by all means let me know so I do not misrepresent you further. I have seen you quote outside canon in prior threads. I understood you were not 'orthodox'.

I see the same message emerge from Rumi the Sufi. I see it in the Dhammapada. I see it in nearly everything I read and every movie I see.

The pitfall with seeing God in all of them is that each contain the thoughts, feelings, and wishes (allegedly) of the creator God. So you can't just say they are all connected to divinity in some way, without addressing the fact they conflict with each others moral teachings, rituals, law, etc. How do you reconcile that? Religions are in conflict with each other. It seems you are extrapolating the parts from them that show the "same message" but ignore the confliction's I speak of. In the example you gave, including Buddhism, it would be very easy to show drastic contrast between it and Abrahamic faiths.

Let me sum my question. Since you said God's message is found in them, do you believe the entirety of those books/texts to represent the Mind of God? If not, why believe some of it does. And if yes, again how do you reconcile confliction.

reply to post by Akragon

and all things lead me back

My question means to ask

what are "all things"

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Akragon

 

Ok I appreciate that

But I feel I laid enough out there that the question can be inferred.

Which I've already explained the best I could...

I've studied for years... and all things lead me back to the gospels

Its not the dogmatic theology in the Christian religion, or any other for that matter...

What he said was Truth... That being, Love is the path

I know for many it can be hard to believe that any truth resides in the bible, but Akragon is right. The problem for most is just as you have accepted the bible is not the word of God why not also accept the possibility that it or at least some of it is.

What Christ teaches is unlike any other teaching.

No one can love anyone who lords over them, but anyone can love the lord that serves them.

Love cannot be found by obeying any rules, love can only be found by serving.

Until one learns to serve like Christ, one will not know the father.

Your spiritual nature is more powerful than your human nature; by the power of the spirit you may overcome sin.

Although I believe the entire bible is the word of God, much of which has been grossly misinterpreted by the church, I believe there is enough in the 4 Gospels to prove that Jesus was more than just an ordinary man.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Mostly everything I've studied...

All scripture from all religion points to love, and life continuing after this incarnation.

however I've found the OT doesn't exemplify these aspects... Which is why I posted what I did in my first reply

reply to post by Akragon

All scripture from all religion points to love, and life continuing after this incarnation.

This sentence points to religion and God in general.

How is this used to affirm Christianity? How is that used to affirm a Christian shouldn't "dare touch" gnostic texts.

Truly I am just confused. I was expecting more from "all things" that lead you back to isolating Christianity as a one true religion. Obviously this is a request not a demand and any response is okay.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Akragon

 

All scripture from all religion points to love, and life continuing after this incarnation.

This sentence points to religion and God in general.

How is this used to affirm Christianity? How is that used to affirm a Christian shouldn't "dare touch" gnostic texts.

Truly I am just confused. I was expecting more from "all things" that lead you back to isolating Christianity as a one true religion. Obviously this is a request not a demand and any response is okay.

edit on 29-1-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

I think you've misunderstood me...

I am Not Christian... And I didn't say a Christian "shouldn't" touch gnostic texts... They should, but most won't because their church considers anything outside of the bible "heretical" or even The work of Satan... which is just silly considering most have no idea what Satanism is... please refer to the link above.

The one "true" religion, does not come from any church... It involves having a personal relationship with God... That is what HE wants from us.... God wants us to seek him out... but we are free to do as we will.

So if one choses not to seek God that is their choice.

IF one chooses to believe God doesn't exist, that is their choice...

Everything has its purpose... even the atheist.

But those who demand you follow their rules or God will punish you... have an agenda

That is what religion is.... Its control

reply to post by sacgamer25

I know for many it can be hard to believe that any truth resides in the bible

Indeed. Very hard to believe for me. And before you say it, I hope you recall our last thread together. I have read the Bible.

The problem for most is just as you have accepted the bible is not the word of God why not also accept the possibility that it or at least some of it is.

Same can and should be turned around on all] religious people.

If you accepted the bible is the word of God, why not also accept the possibility only some of it is.

See how that was the inverse? Fair is fair.

I can explore a discussion on the premise some of it is. Can you? You have said every word is the word of God. If you resolved your mind on that, don't be so taken back by those with resolved minds saying none of it is.

Let's both of us try to have less resolve and indeed open our minds to possibilities Both of us.

What Christ teaches is unlike any other teaching.

Challenge accepted. Present a teaching, and I will put that to the test.

Although I believe the entire bible is the word of God

I believe there is enough in the 4 Gospels to prove that Jesus was more than just an ordinary man.

Unless you are professing direct revelation from God himself. I don't know how reading, and from that believing, constitutes as proof for you. That sounds like faith to me.

reply to post by Akragon

I am Not Christian... .

I'm sorry but it's just not true. And we can debate this back and forth if you desire. But you are religious. You can distance yourself from the Church, that's fine, but when you claim to know the Mind of God aka the affirmation of a bible...you are religious. In your case the affirmation of the Christian Bible.

IF one chooses to believe God doesn't exist, that is their choice...

Indeed. But I do.

I would like to think God belief is based on reason, and or direct revelation. In my case reason. I am a deist. I don't believe in revelation, but I can at least understand how that would be good reason if someone experienced it.

I am not talking about God belief. I know many struggle to separate the two. But I am talking about belief in dogma/scripture/bibles...

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I'm sorry but it's just not true. And we can debate this back and forth if you desire. But you are religious.

no need to apologize

IF you choose to put a label on my beliefs so be it...

You can distance yourself from the Church, that's fine, but when you claim to know the Mind of God aka the affirmation of a bible...you are religious. In your case the affirmation of the Christian Bible.

So you must be Christian to read their material?

The bible is composed of many books, its not just one... I happen to like 4 of them... to each their own though

I would like to think it's based on reason, and or direct revelation. In my case reason. I am a deist.

Deism (Listeni/ˈdiː.ɪzəm/[1][2] or /ˈdeɪ.ɪzəm/) is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of God,



25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?


LOL... sorry I couldn't help it

I don't believe in revelation, but I can at least understand how that would be good reason if someone experienced it.

You experience it every day of your life... You just don't know what you see...

Life is revelation through experience...

I am not talking about God belief. I know many struggle to separate the two. But I am talking about belief in dogma/scripture/bibles...

Scripture is just a tool... If you don't like it... don't deal with it...

Personally I find scripture to be fascinating but that's me...

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

You may be working under a false premise when it comes to my belief.

You referred to yourself as a Christian. From that I took a stab. If I am working under a false premise by all means let me know so I do not misrepresent you further. I have seen you quote outside canon in prior threads. I understood you were not 'orthodox'.

I see the same message emerge from Rumi the Sufi. I see it in the Dhammapada. I see it in nearly everything I read and every movie I see.

The pitfall with seeing God in all of them is that each contain the thoughts, feelings, and wishes (allegedly) of the creator God. So you can't just say they are all connected to divinity in some way, without addressing the fact they conflict with each others moral teachings, rituals, law, etc. How do you reconcile that? Religions are in conflict with each other. It seems you are extrapolating the parts from them that show the "same message" but ignore the confliction's I speak of. In the example you gave, including Buddhism, it would be very easy to show drastic contrast between it and Abrahamic faiths.

Let me sum my question. Since you said God's message is found in them, do you believe the entirety of those books/texts to represent the Mind of God? If not, why believe some of it does. And if yes, again how do you reconcile confliction.

edit on 29-1-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

By false premise, I should have said incorrect premise. I see it differently. Let me take a few or your presuppositions and show them by my eyes.

----"You referred to yourself as a Christian."

I cannot entrust myself to Christ apart from taking on the character that reveals his trust. I am only a Christian by the fact that I entrust my choices to the cornerstone I build the house from. I can call myself this name, but only the light that hits me can reveal the truth of this name. If I read the RUMI and notice an error on his part, this is light revealing him to me. If I read his words and recognize the light of Christ, the light I see can only be seen if it is reflected in my first.

----"The pitfall with seeing God in all of them is that each contain the thoughts, feelings, and wishes (allegedly) of the creator God."

And what allows you to know this? You reflected the light, at some point, to show this within yourself. You only know because you are known. Know thyself. The light is not the thing in error. What it reveals in reflection is according to your mirror, not the light itself.

-----"So you can't just say they are all connected to divinity in some way, without addressing the fact they conflict with each others moral teachings, rituals, law, etc. How do you reconcile that? "

Again, you can't know if it is true or not until you reflect it yourself. The reason you can discern is because you have.

RUMI

The method is to place a mirror between the parrot and the trainer. The trainer, hidden by the mirror, utters the words, and the parrot, seeing his own reflection in the mirror, fancies another parrot is speaking, and imitates all that is said by the trainer behind the mirror. So God uses prophets and saints as mirrors whereby to instruct men, being Himself all the time hidden behind these mirrors, viz., the bodies of these saints and prophets; and men, when they hear the words proceeding from these mirrors, are utterly ignorant that they are really being spoken by "Universal Reason" or the "Word of God" behind the mirrors of the saints.

When the BELOVED shows not the light of His countenance?
LOVE desires that this secret should be revealed,
For if a mirror reflects not, of what use is it?
Knowest thou why thy mirror reflects not?
Because the rust has not been scoured from its face.
If it were purified from all rust and defilement,
It would reflect the shining of the SUN Of GOD.

Notice he uses "SUN of GOD." Malachi 4 - 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays.

The voice of God is the reflecting heart and intellect.

---- Since you said God's message is found in them, do you believe the entirety of those books/texts to represent the Mind of God? If not, why believe some of it does. And if yes, again how do you reconcile confliction?

It's not HOW I reconcile. It's that I do. "For if the mirror reflects not, what use is it?" How do you reflect? You are the image of God. Simply clean the mirror and all is revealed. You can't reflect on virtue until you are the same reflection. You cannot reflect on vice unless you have been immersed in it. Reflect the difference and God's voice is heard. Judgment takes place. Love sets free. Love keeps no record of wrongs.

Continued in next post.