They can't keep a secret that big!

"How on earth can you really believe that thousands of people could keep a secret like that? People would surely blab!"

WE have all heard this line before.... like a cliched, throwaway conversation stopper that it is.

Well, ladies and Gentlemen, Conspiracies are not "Outlandish Theories" perpetrated by "Insane Tin Foil Hatted Wackos"

They are accounts of historical record, and Fact.




Project MK-ULTRA, the CIA's secret mind control experiment, and research into various narcotics, and their potential effectiveness for use in clandestine information gathering activities (Tourture, et al)


Here are just some choice selections from the Wikipedia Article, and a brief explanation of what it means:

The program began in the early 1950s... .....and "officially halted" in 1973.

That's twenty three years, give or take.... to hold onto a secret as large as this:

Early CIA efforts focused on '___', which later came to dominate many of MKUltra's programs. Technical Services Staff officials understood that '___' distorted a person's sense of reality, and they felt compelled to learn whether it could alter someone's basic loyalties.

Once Project MKUltra officially got underway in April, 1953, experiments included administering '___' to mental patients, prisoners, drug addicts and prostitutes, "people who could not fight back", as one agency officer put it.

'___' was also administered to CIA employees, military personnel, doctors, other government agents, and members of the general public in order to study their reactions. '___' and other drugs were usually administered without the subject's knowledge or informed consent, a violation of the Nuremberg Code that the U.S. agreed to follow after World War II.

Conspiracy: (Noun)

1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

The congressional committee investigating the CIA research, chaired by Senator Frank Church, concluded that "[p]rior consent was obviously not obtained from any of the subjects". The committee noted that the "experiments sponsored by these researchers ... call into question the decision by the agencies not to fix guidelines for experiments."

Project MK-ULTRA was by definition a conspiracy, and it was kept under wraps for at least two decades.

"But ErtaiNaGia! Surely they could keep the secret because there were so few people involved!"

Actually, this is entirely inaccurate:

The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies.

Yes, that is right... A Government Conspiracy to cause illegal harm to United States Citizens, involving hundreds if not thousands of people, and it was kept a secret for over twenty years.

Conspiracy Theory?

No....

Conspiracy *FACT*



A conspiracy?

In MY Government?

It's more likely than you think.

Q.E.D.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


Give somebody enough money and they'll keep anything a secret, not to mention if they threaten your family and friends if you do talk.

Like they say, money talks, but it also keeps people from talking.

S&F

All you need do is watch the last 20 seconds of this video.



45 minutes of video. And that's just 5% of what went on.... that he knew about.
SMH.

Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
"How on earth can you really believe that thousands of people could keep a secret like that? People would surely blab!"

WE have all heard this line before.... like a cliched, throwaway conversation stopper that it is.

Skipping the rest of your post for now I wanted to mention just a little something..

I agree with you about keeping secrets because for one millions in the Army I trained with are keeping secrets, and no one else will ever know publicly what some of those things are.

The illogical part to the argument about "how could they keep secrets so big" is that how could you ever know?? The Very nature of the proposed ability to keep large secrets is that if they can you won't ever know about it ..

So when people say "well, come on name some big secret that no one found out about, it's never happened" I have to chuckle to myself.. How would you know it can't be succesful if the fact of it being succesful means you won't ever see it..



So thanks, good topic, and now on to reading the rest.

'___' was used in these experiments but remember that was not the main focus. Most people only talk about the '___' factor of this operation. A broad range of techniques wear used, including brain surgery. Just imagine what kind of power you would have if you mapped out the whole brain including the neurological system. This was 50-60 years ago, just look at how far we have come with our PUBLIC tech. They have mastered these techniques and are using them on ALL OF US. Its all about total control.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia

Here are just some choice selections from the Wikipedia Article, and a brief explanation of what it means:

Why are you posting anything from wikipedia and claiming it's proof of a conspiracy? You realize wikipedia can be edited by anyone right? Think about this.

Do you really think you would find any groundbreaking, accurate information about a top secret govt mind control project on wikipedia?

reply to post by ZeroReady

Why are you posting anything from wikipedia and claiming it's proof of a conspiracy?

Because it's all public record, straight from congressional records.

Did you not read the sources from the articles?

er.lib.msu.edu...

www.aarclibrary.org...

Title (PDF: 101 K)
Table of Contents (PDF: 51 K)
Preface (PDF: 164 K)
Part I - Summary of the Investigation (PDF: 12 K)

Chapter 1 - The Fundamental Issues (PDF: 170 K)

Chapter 2 - The Need for Intelligence (PDF: 182 K)

Chapter 3 - Summary of Findings, Conclusions, and Recommendations (PDF: 2055 K)
Part II - The CIA's Role and Authority (PDF: 41 K)

Chapter 4 - Intelligence and Related Activities by the United States before 1947 (PDF: 190 K)

Chapter 5 - The Sources of CIA Authority (PDF: 659 K)

Chapter 6 - Legal Analysis (PDF: 596 K)
Part III - Supervision and Control of the CIA (PDF: 41 K)

Chapter 7 - External Controls (PDF: 753 K)

Chapter 8 - Internal Controls (PDF: 817 K)
Part IV - Significant Areas of Investigation (PDF: 87 K)

Chapter 9 - The CIA's Mail Intercepts (PDF: 1031 K)

Chapter 10 - Intelligence Community Coordination (PDF: 887 K)

Chapter 11 - Special Operations Group - 'Operation CHAOS' (PDF: 1327 K)

Chapter 12 - Protection of the Agency Against Threats of Violence - Office of Security (PDF: 558 K)

Chapter 13 - Other Investigations by the Office of Security (PDF: 722 K)

Chapter 14 - Involvement of the CIA in Improper Activities for the White House (PDF: 2327 K)

Chapter 15 - Domestic Activities of the Directorate of Operations (PDF: 1073 K)

Chapter 16 - Domestic Activities of the Directorate of Science and Technology (PDF: 414 K)

Chapter 17 - CIA Relationships with Other Federal, State and Local Agencies (PDF: 616 K)

Chapter 18 - Indices and Files on American Citizens (PDF: 648 K)

Chapter 19 - Allegations Concerning the Assassination of President Kennedy (PDF: 1259 K)
Appendix I. Executive Order (PDF: 108 K)
Appendix II. Statement by the President (PDF: 83 K)
Appendix III. National Security Act of 1947 (PDF: 227 K)
Appendix IV. Biographical Information (PDF: 354 K)
Appendix V. Highlights of Civil Disturbances (PDF: 356 K)
Appendix VI. Proposed Amendments (PDF: 87 K)
Appendix VII. Assistance To and From Agencies (PDF: 383 K)

Originally posted by ZeroReady
reply to post by ErtaiNaGia

 

Here are just some choice selections from the Wikipedia Article, and a brief explanation of what it means:

Why are you posting anything from wikipedia and claiming it's proof of a conspiracy? You realize wikipedia can be edited by anyone right? Think about this.

Do you really think you would find any groundbreaking, accurate information about a top secret govt mind control project on wikipedia?

Maybe you should do a little research before you make comments like this. This program was exposed under the freedom of information act. Its very well known. This is basic #, same category as Kennedy assassination only this is proven because the Govt was forced to release the documents. Not all of them wear released, a large majority of them wear burned before they wear released but their is still a vast amount of documents, information on the program.

reply to post by ZeroReady


BTW, I really like your profile picture, bro...

It just screams "Disinfo Agent"

It can be easy to keep a conspiracy using a lot of people but you need to break it down to such small areas that no one knows the full picture..some soldier driving a tanker full of something with only a weird chemical formula on his sheet that he has no idea what it means from place to place will never be able to tell as what can he say..."i drove a tanker from x to y and was told it was top secret" and also any secret project is not going to have everyone from the director of the department down to the guy who cleans the bins knowing everything thats part of it

reply to post by Maxatoria

Yes. Compartmentalization is key.

I might add that disinfo, misinfo, discrediting tactics, and muddying of the waters, are also used to keep anyone from believing those secrets that do slip out into the public from time to time. It's quite a well oiled machine.

BTW. The Betty Page avatar.

reply to post by Klassified

It's quite a well oiled machine.

Not as well as you might think, actually...

It's surprisingly difficult to cloak an explosion, after all.....

I love playing the Match Game....

Conspiracy: (Noun)

1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

....goes with....

"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure -- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

- David Rockefeller, "Memoirs" autobiography (2002, Random House publishers), page 405

I thought the use of '___' on unsuspecting people has been known about for a long time...

Meh, who needs to keep a secret?

Just give an official story, any ol story will do, and label anyone disagreeing either a conspiracy theorist or a terrorist. I have no doubt the line will blur between the two at some point in the future. Put out some material that questions your own story, but does in such an insubstantial (ideally "crazy") way as to minimize the efforts of ALL who question it. Society will take care of the rest in all parts of the equation.

Combine this with compartmentalization and you really do have a well-oiled machine. For any given localized event, there will only ever be a percentage of the population that witnesses it. By definition, they are the fringe element and it has never been about "controlling" everyone, just the masses.

So, even if people from a specific project ALL came together, got their stories together and saw the bigger picture, got every witness of every event involved in the specific project, and ALL decided to let loose the info, it would still be easily dismissed by the masses and their acceptance of the official story. I am not aware of such a thing ever happening though, so maybe I am wrong.

*BAM* The secret to keeping secrets isnt to keep them at all Just blur the line so much between fact and fiction that no one can tell the difference anymore. Then it doesnt matter how well a "secret" is kept at all!

Case in point: MK Ultra. People have been talking about it for quite some time. Even with government released papers, many still only accept it as some fantasy which our government would "never take part in."

Blame all of it on culture of Capt. America an Ironman that including batman/superman and the other well known guys too.

Self proclaimed “super country” needs “superheros” to clean of the path and those candidates should be picked up from the nearest and most available neighbourhood, why complaining?

Both the Government, the Hollywood and their agencies projecting those images of the (altered human) for decades and to the generations of the past 60-70 years, truthfully.

Guess you were in denial so far.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


I am a disinfo agent/shill/sock puppet/reptillian.

Now that that's out of the way...

I wasn't debating the validity of MK Ultra. I know it happened. I just have a personal vendetta against citing wikipedia for anything, especially related to conspiracies, regardless of the sources cited within the article. A lot of times the sources don't actually link to anything, broken links etc. I could change whatever I want in that article and it wouldn't be challenged until someone else catches it and fixes it.

For example (not even conspiracy related) I had to edit the wiki article about Japanese samurai because it falsely said that they were paid in land. Samurai were never landowners, they were paid in rice.

All I'm saying is that it isn't wise to just open up a topic with a wikipedia article.

reply to post by ZeroReady

There's nothing wrong with Wiki as a general source. The problem arises when people won't check the sources quoted in Wiki articles. Anyone reading an article from any source should be checking the sources of that source, and so on.

It's easy to dismiss any source out of hand, and miss references to good information. All it takes is a few key strokes, and a little persistence to find nuggets in the worst of sources.

Disregarding information based solely on the source it comes from throws objectivity completely out the window, and is synonymous with throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I want to edit my first comment, It was written on my mobile and I want to beef it out a bit so to speak.


Now firstly like I initially said, by the very virtue that we know of the existence of MK-Ultra and have done for quite some time disproves the notion that the contrary to what the OP says, “they” really couldn’t keep a secret that big.


What the OP is talking about is usually what intelligence agencies call “compartmentalisation”. The idea is that if the indigence services want to keep a big project secret they will have lots of people on a “need to know basis” preforming tasks without having any idea of the big picture. The most famous case known of this is the Manhattan project used to build the first nuclear bomb. They would have a few guys who were say building the testing grounds, the alloys, plastics, guys working on other things like building factories and so on without knowing that they were actually building a nuclear bomb. In the end it is estimated that well over 100,000 people were involved in the project but very few actually knew what the end goal was, to build “little boy”.


Lots of conspiracy theorists use the compartmentalisation of the Manhattan project as a counter argument against those who argue that the 9/11 false flag operation would have to many people involved in it to keep it secret. They argue that to keep the 9/11 operation secret those who say were involved in putting in the explosives in the building didn’t know the end goal.


It seems like a reasonable argument but it’s not, the compartmentalisation of the Manhattan project had limited effect, it kept it secret for the most part form the American people but the Germans and the Russians knew all about it. If it were to have happened today with the dawn of the internet it would be an open secret. In addition to this the scale of compartmentalisation would be impractical and many things just couldn’t be kept secret depending on what 9/11 conspiracy you subscribe to. For a 9/11 false flag to remain a secret you would need to have all of the leaders of the New York and Washington emergency responders in on it, all of the intelligence officials would also need to be in on it, then the guys who would have to put the explosives in the building. In addition to this members of the military would need to have been in on it in some way and so on, the list is extensive.

What is important to remember is that compartmentalisation only works if the people involved don’t know what they are doing. With 9/11 it wouldn’t work, the fire fighters would be asking questions, then so would the military guys involved, the FAA people, and the people who planted the explosives would also have to be in on it. Not only do they have to be in on it but they would have to actually be aware of what they were really up to or at least they would find out after the event. For that reason compartmentalisation does not work when applied to 9/11, or other big conspiracies such as the existence of the NWO.


The government is actually very bad at keeping secrets, that’s why we have so much to talk about. That’s the problem with your thread OP, we know about MK-Ultra, we know about Iran-contra and we know about the Gulf of Tolkien all because the government can’t keep a secret. Its true when people say to you “they couldn’t keep a secret that big, there would just be too many people to keep quiet”. It has been proven time and time again historically that they just can’t keep anything secret for long. It all eventually comes out at some point, especially the American government, us brits seem to be a little better at it.


What is also important to remember that on a smaller scale compartmentalisation can work but only in the short term. The government has to keep some secrets; the location of nuclear weapons is a excellent example as is the identity of members of the intelligence community. Yes every now and then a secret is exposed again that just proves they can’t keep a secret.

That does not however mean that they are keeping some bigger more nefarious secrets its just not happening as much as conspiracy theorists would like to think that it is.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

The very fact we know about mk-ultra surely debunks the op

I was stating that secrets, even vast ones, can be kept.

Maybe not forever, but certainly for decades at the very least, as has been proven.