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Should England have it's own Parliament?

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posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 05:27 PM
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Grainofsand and helen - you two should get together. You're a match made in heaven




posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66
Grainofsand and helen - you two should get together. You're a match made in heaven
Your opinion about the relationship between ATS members in this thread is irrelevant and very much off topic, it also adds no support to your argument.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66
Grainofsand and helen - you two should get together. You're a match made in heaven

and you and diggy are heaven sent !!!



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by grainofsand
 


I'm sorry sandy - this debate is going nowhere and I'm feeding you no more ATS points. 'It's not fair - It's not fair.' How do we get past that when I know that certain parts of Glasgow and surrounding areas are among the most deprived in Europe.

That if you take the time to look at the table you'll see that Scotland's income tax is below average - that's because of all the high flying jobs we don't have - and because of all the unemployment we do have.

Among other things we have the second highest level per capita of heroin abuse in the world - second only to Iran. That's because we're such a roaring success.

Anyway - I'll away and leave you and Helen to reinforce one another's belief system.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 05:50 PM
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The United Kingdom.................. No regional assembly No Scottish parliament and definitely NO
Scottish Independence.

All this ridicules talk annoys me,,,,,,,,, It's going to far. We should stick together. Scotland , England Wales
dont care about the Irish , they are too raj



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by christina-66
Anyway - I'll away and leave you and Helen to reinforce one another's belief system.

Thats nice to hear, I'm amazed at the supporters of Scottish subsidy by English taxpayers who leave this thread due to a lack of supportive argument.
Again, if you have a reasoned argument to deny England a parliament which decides solely English matters while spending English taxes solely in England I am interested in hearing it. Seems to me that so far the only opponents are unhappy with losing their subsidies lol



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 10:32 AM
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Apologies for the late reply, I didn't notice your question last night and as it's too late to edit now a fresh reply is required.


Originally posted by christina-66

I'm showing you what we pay in - it's the other side of the equation.
And I'm showing you what you get back out. A higher proportion than you pay in.


You cannot possibly have absorbed the implications of that table in this short time.
Yes I did, it was quite simple, roughly 8% of the UK paying roughly 8% of various taxes in most of the right hand column.


e.g. look at the oil revenue - that's it after it's been handed back to us and divied up to EXACTLY our per capita share. So that table doesn't show everything we put IN.
You may find this official report from the Government Scotland Office interesting, it differs somewhat to your assertions:

www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk...


The main findings are:
• If all North Sea oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland there would only have been 9 years out of the last 27 when Scotland’s finances would have been in surplus.
• Including all North Sea oil revenues the last year of surplus was in 1988-89 and since then there has been 18 years of annual deficits with Scotland’s spending being greater than the tax raised in Scotland.
• Even if all oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland the total deficit would have outweighed the total surplus by £20bn since 1980-81.
Interesting don't you think?


The point is - if you don't like the status quo - start a campaign to change it.
My intent behind this very topic is to raise awareness, consider it a grassroots personal campaign.


Throwing the toys out the pram gets you nowhere. Anyone stomping their feet screaming 'it's not fair. It's not fair' only looks pathetic to all and sundry.
I think it is very clear to any and all readers of this thread who has presented the most emotionally based arguments to the debate. I prefer to stick to calm reason.

And to your question I failed to notice last night...

So, what are YOU going to do about the disparity?
I shall make as much effort to raise awareness about it as I can through reasonable discussion in open forum. I think at 11 pages (so far) it has been a mild success with the spurious arguments against an English parliament (and fair distribution of taxes paid in England) being exposed for what they usually are - emotionally based and without much substance.



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by grainofsand
 


Forget England. London should have its own Parliament.



posted on Jan, 29 2013 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by grainofsand
 


Forget England. London should have its own Parliament.


It does - the mayor and his office are very powerful and the city of London also has a mayor.[ not blondie air head Johnson]



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by HelenConway
 


How is the mayor of London powerful? He's basically a transport commissioner. And the Lord Mayor of the City of London is largely an honorific.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorDisco
How is the mayor of London powerful? He's basically a transport commissioner.
I'd suggest he's a bit more than that, here's a link and quote for anyone interested in the finer details:

legacy.london.gov.uk...


The Mayor has a range of specific powers and duties, and a general power to do anything that will promote economic and social development, and environmental improvement, in London. Before using many of his powers the Mayor must consult with Londoners, and in all cases, the Mayor must promote equality of opportunity.

The Mayor sets out plans and policies for London covering transport, planning and development, housing, economic development and regeneration, culture, health inequalities, and a range of environmental issues including climate change, biodiversity, ambient noise, waste disposal and air quality.
Bit more than transport then?


And the Lord Mayor of the City of London is largely an honorific.
Hmm, I'd agree to an extent, but it is quite an influencial position in other ways:

www.cityoflondon.gov.uk...


The Lord Mayor is elected on an annual basis for a one-year term in office. The position is unpaid and apolitical. The Lord Mayor spends some 90 days promoting the City abroad and also makes a number of business-focused visits to different parts of the UK. He addresses in the region of 10,000 people each month, making around 700 speeches a year.

The Lord Mayor also hosts a large number of visits by important foreign political and business figures. Another key aspect of the Lord Mayor's role is to advise the Government on the views of City businesses. As part of this the Lord Mayor is President of the Advisory Council of TheCityUK



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 01:38 PM
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just for the record peeps, i've really enjoyed reading all sides of this thread, it's been both informative and entertaining, and issues elsewhere have kept me out, plus i had little to add besides my only post here as all involved have made excellent points from their own perspective and backed them up well.

i do love the british threads



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by skalla
 

It is an interesting debate for sure, and one that will continue to grow judging by the figures from a 2012 ICM poll for the Sunday Telegraph.

Question: Would you be in favour or against the establishment of an English Parliament within the UK, with similar powers to those currently enjoyed by the Scottish Parliament?

In Favour 49%
Don't know 34%
Against 16%
Refused Answer 1%

When exposure to the facts about tax distribution and non-English MP's voting on issues relating solely to England is increased amongst the "Don't Knows" then I would consider that support for an English parliament is likely to become the majority view.

Source...www.icmresearch.com...

*Edit*
At the 1997 Welsh devolution referendum elections the results were as follows:
Yes - 50.3%
No - 49.7%

Wales got it's assembly even on those very very close figures, so judging by the latest polls in England it is fairly clear that if a referendum was offered then an English parliament would be voted in.
Source...www.bbc.co.uk...


edit on 30-1-2013 by grainofsand because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by grainofsand
 


from my POV and in brief, it's hard to refute the logic of separate english debates/votes within the house of commons given the other assemblies in the uk, tax issues etc.

however, england has historically (IMO) taken way more than its fair share off all other members of the union over the last few hundred years (land, titles, natural resources, soldiery yadda yadda) and benefitted accordingly, so as a multi blooded tax paying brit who was born and raised in england, so on balance i am actually fairly ambivilant to the issue.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by skalla
so as a multi blooded tax paying brit who was born and raised in england, so on balance i am actually fairly ambivilant to the issue.
Understand your point of view there skalla, just curious though (if you don't mind me asking) Lets say a referendum was held, "Should England have it's own parliament similar to Scotland" would you vote yes, no, or abstain?

I, obviously, would vote yes.
Born and raised in Wales, I've always paid my taxes in England though, and with my family still back in Wales, I see clear benefits of their devolved government and would wish we enjoyed the same in my adopted nation.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by grainofsand
 


too difficult to call without more info i'm afraid, i'd have to examine the minutae of how such a proposal would work and the ramifications that the detail would have - the devil is in the detail in all of this, and i for one would not want to start us on the road of breaking up the union, unless i got dual english/scottish nationality (my "primary" heritage).

i'd really have to find out more in the specific case, and then most likely make up my mind during the campaign i guess.

boring fence sitting i know, but with conviction!



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by skalla
 
Hey, it's an honest and refreshingly reasoned answer unclouded by emotion, so I appreciate it


It put's you in the 34% 'Don't know' camp from the 2012 poll, which is a perfectly understandable position to hold while the debate is presently in 'grassroots' stage.
I think it will develop much further as the Scottish referendum grows closer. The questions of funding and voting rights etc will become much more prominent in our media, and English voters will quite rightly be reconsidering our own position as the Scottish begin to make their decisions.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by grainofsand
 


thing is for me, i'm a brit, better still a "briton"... i love all parts of our nation and have links that spread all over.. a majority of my most recent blood is english by birth but have very strong scottish roots on both sides, a bit of irish ancestry and welsh family too.. 2 generations ago i have native gaelic speakers in my immediate family and was rocked to sleep as a baby with tales of cuchullain told to me in (scottish) gaelic - i have even studied both scottish and irish gaelic and welsh at various college/university courses. i really dont want borders or further separation in my homeland




posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by skalla
 

I agree.
I love the fact that living by the beach, I could choose to walk right or left and regardless of how many thousands of miles it would take, I will ultimately get back to the same point without leaving my country.
My mothers side of the family is solely Welsh rooted, my Grandad was a Cornish miner who moved to Wales to become a coal miner, and my surname is uniquely Cornish with a spelling that is in the 'less than hundreds' UK wide. I also spent much of my education learning Welsh.

Personally, I think we are stronger as a union and any break-up is expensive for no particular reason I see important when the emotionally driven arguments are taken out of the debate.
Is Scotland going to have it's own embassies around the world, different passports, border controls and/or restrictions on residency/employment for the remaining parts of the UK? I really don't see this need for division and prefer our national government to be more federally designed as British for defence and foreign policy etc, with equal devolved powers for the component nations.

My focus in this thread though is to provide awareness of the disparity at present. It is difficult for anyone to argue that it is not, unless someone contributes something I have not considered which could change my mind.
So yes, I agree that a formal break-up of the UK is not something I advocate personally, just a more equal status for English taxpayers with English MP's solely voting on English issues, and English taxes more fairly distributed in England.



posted on Jan, 30 2013 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by skalla
 


Geeza i'm with you on that one.

I'm a Brit with allsorts in my family tree, my ma is Irish and my old feller is from the highlands.

I wouldn't want to see any more separation but

I do agree with the op that why are Scottish MP's allowed a vote and why am i subsidising their constituents with my tax's? (just done my tax return in the nick of time)



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