New Mexico Bill Would Criminalize Abortions After Rape As 'Tampering With Evidence'

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
So if public opinion was of the mind a woman can kill her child at any time until the age of 10, you would be ok with that being legal? Accepting the futility of the situation does not mean accepting the situation. Otherwise blacks would still be slaves.

Like abortion, I'd be against it, but if the society did not see the immorality in that, enacting a law would do no good because no jury would even punish it.

reply to post by lampsalot


Hey, lampsalot. Before I say anything, I just wanna let you know I'm not trying to sound all indignant and pissed off or start an argument, LOL...just wanna get that out of the way.

I'm only writing this cuz I noticed a couple of things that you said that I kinda wanna make a statement about as I am someone who has been victimized before. It's hard for me to write about this in such a public fashion but I feel so strongly about this subject and I feel so strongly about the things said about rape and incest and its victims by people who have never been victimized in this way...I just can't help but speak up.

I didn't become pregnant or contract any diseases because of the things that happened to me, thank God. If I had been impregnated, I wouldn't have been able to live with it. It would've gone beyond how the very crimes committed against me tore my heart and mind and soul into a million pieces, shattered me into a million pieces, broke me in a way that I cannot put into words...if I had become pregnant because of what I went through, I would've lost my mind and probably killed myself. I am a Roman Catholic and I'm pro-life except in the instances of rape and incest or if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's life, and I would have to be out of my mind to kill myself or abort a child from a consensual sexual encounter because I believe both acts would damn my soul to an eternity in Hell, but I know what it feels like to be victimized and pushed to the edge of sanity...and being impregnated through what I went through would have pushed me right over that edge of sanity and there's no telling whether I would've aborted the child or simply killed myself. I'm still surprised that I didn't kill myself at some point...but I'm still standing and I'm still here. For all the other victims of these crimes...some aren't as lucky as I was to not be impregnated, or not be infected by diseases, or to be able to maintain their sanity after their ordeal, or to even survive their ordeal.

In one of your comments on this thread, you referred to rapists as jerks...I'm not attacking your choice of words because I'm assuming it was just an off-handed comment and that you didn't mean to make it sound so frivolous. But if you actually do think that rapists are just jerks, I've gotta say...men who perpetrate rape and incest are not simply "jerks". They are MONSTERS that destroy innocence and rip souls apart. Seriously think about this...if someone held you down and violated and damaged your body, mind, heart, and soul and through the heinous act of rape, would you take it so lightly as to simply consider YOUR rapist as a jerk? A jerk is the guy who cuts you off in rush hour traffic and then flips you off, not the guy who violently and forcefully inserts himself into your body and degrades your very existence and uses you for his pleasure and to get off on the power and control he feels as he destroys you.

You also brought up sexual education and contraception. Yet again, I'm not trying to attack your words...I just wanna ask you a few questions about your statements because I don't see how sexual education and contraception have any place in a discussion about rape. Do you think that sex ed and contraception is going to make one bit of difference to the underage girl who can't obtain birth control on her own and is being raped by her father or any other family member? Or how about a woman of any age...let's think about a hypothetical woman for conversation's sake...she's maybe in her late teens or early twenties, she may be a virgin or she may not be and either way she just does not have any intention to have sex with anyone any time soon, so this hypothetical woman has no reason to be on any form of birth control...therefore if she gets raped, all the sex ed and contraception in the world isn't going to do her a bit of good either. What is the relevance of birth control and sexual education in relation to unwanted, unplanned, forceful sexual encounters?

I really want to stress that I'm simply wondering about these two statements you've made, I'm not attacking you or your words in any way so please don't be cross with me for writing this. I just honestly want to know...you don't simply consider rapists to be jerks, right? And you don't honestly think that sex ed and contraception has any place in a discussion about rape, right? And finally...you don't believe that either aborting a child of rape or incest or carrying the child to term is just a simple, black and white, right and wrong issue, do you? And I'm not simply asking you these questions, I'm asking anyone who happens to read this these questions. And whatever your answers may be, I completely respect your right to your opinion if it doesn't happen to mesh with mine. I just wanted to ask.

reply to post by lampsalot

I I think it should be legal as long as it's done early

If 'early' is defined by the science that describes fetal development then I agree.

even though personally I think it's wrong.

I thought you said it should be legal if done early? So what is wrong? Life starts at conception? Is that it? Then why are you okay with it at all? Personally I don't agree with the "life starts at conception" argument. But I wont expand here it's off topic.

The best way to discourage abortion isn't to criminalize it

That's for damn sure.

reply to post by jcutler12888


Thank you for your post and being so open and sharing your experience! That must take a lot. Although it's never happened to me I have lived with the ramification of rape my entire life....as it happened to my sister.

I agree that poster's wording of "jerk" was either ridiculously offensive or just poorly chosen. Honestly I was taken aback by it. Because you're right they are MONSTERS.

That said.... I have to comment on this

I am a Roman Catholic and I'm pro-life except in the instances of rape and incest or if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's life

This makes you Pro-Choice. That's what pro-choice means. You're pro-choice

The People creating these laws more than likely have not been raped so they have no idea.

for eg: a friend of mine was given her Daughter's organs wrapped in hession cloth after forensics had finished with them nearly 2 months after her funeral and the comment that went with it: "oh, your Daughter was very healthy, had very healthy organs..." very inappropriate but that is how it is. People are detached, they see the human body/organs in a different way.

I do not agree with what they are trying to do.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


You're welcome...you're definitely right, it takes a lot to talk about something so personal with so many people...I'm honestly afraid of what people might say in response to what I've said and shared, I don't know how I'm gonna feel if someone says something rude or mean...I really hope no one will be insensitive or cold hearted enough to say anything mean in response to it because I will be genuinely and deeply hurt if that happens. I'm guess I'm still somewhat fragile about the situation, for lack of a better word...I suffer from PTSD as a result of it all so I suppose that's where the fragility on the subject comes from. I guess when it comes to sharing anything related to my experiences, I just feel that it's necessary to say SOMETHING in instances and situations like this conversation. I'm sure that you noticed the wording in my earlier post regarding my experiences was rather redundant, which I apologize for but it's still hard to talk about it and even to just say/write certain words (I literally have a hard time saying the word rape aloud, I can rarely bring myself to say it and when I try to, a huge wave of anxiety crashes down on me).

As far as labeling myself pro-life vs pro-choice, I kind of have a problem with the fact that I only have those two labels to choose from because it isn't a yes/no, black/white, right/wrong sort of issue...there is such a huge gray area as far as the whole issue is concerned. In a way, you are absolutely right...I am pro-choice because I believe that if a female is pregnant by rape/incest or if the pregnancy is life-threatening, she has every right in the world to be given the choice to have an abortion if she wants one. On the other hand, I'm pro-life becaus I believe that women who are pregnant through consensual sexual encounters should not be offered the choice of abortion because at some point people have to start taking responsibility for their actions and living with the consequences of their actions...if they are willing to engage in consensual sex then they should be held to their decision to engage in that behavior and deal with the consequences of their actions and if they don't want to raise the child then there are plenty of wonderful people who would love to through adoption.

I don't want to come across like I'm just some clueless girl talking about motherhood. I'm only 24 but I married my high school sweetheart when I turned 18 (he was 20), I got pregnant about a month after out wedding and and I had our one and only child while still 18. My ex-husband became extremely abusive and I divorced him after he tried to kill me and himself when I was 21. I'm currently in my second year of law school, I'm divorced with a 5 year old daughter, we are thriving and doing fantastically all on our own, and I am overjoyed simply to be alive and have a beautiful, wonderful daughter. I understand motherhood...every second of a pregnancy, I've lived it, and I've been a proud parent since the birth of my daughter. When I think of how irresponsible it is of women to have consensual sex, become pregnant, and have abortions simply because being pregnant or having a child would be an inconvenience...it simply makes me want to scream, "Own up to your actions and get over yourself and if you aren't ready to be a parent or don't want to be a parent, simply give the baby to a good home...don't throw it away!" Pregnancies that are the result of rape and incest are just a whole different ball game. They didn't choose to engage in any behavior leading to the pregnancy and actually having the baby could have such a huge and horrifying impact on the victim's life and mind that's already been through so much just from the rape/incest itself that I feel it is tantamount to a crime in itself to force a victim to go through that if they choose not to because they can't handle it.

So I don't know...pro-life, pro-choice...I'm just a bit of both, really.

This is not a surprise to me at all, if they cannot legally force people to do
what they want then they will find a way to make it legal, these people
have lost sight of the job they are suppose to do, im so tired of this type
of behavior. this is just sad. i really have no hope for our current elected
officials.

If this passes what is going to stop women from crossing state lines to get the abortion??

B. Tampering with evidence shall include procuring
or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion, of a fetus that is the result of
criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to
destroy evidence of the crime.
This is directly from the proposed bill. It will not pass. The legislature here has introduced several bills that will never make it out of comittee, I think this is one of them. They are also proposing special license plate for masons and making January 28 the NMSU AGGIES ARE TOUGH ENOUGH TO WEAR PINK day.
Our tax dollars at work.....

...pregnancies to term in order to use the fetus as evidence for a sexual assault trial.

Use the fetus? Wouldn't it be a BABY by then? And what do they mean by the word "use"?

Was the person who introduced this bill a human?

reply to post by rival


Good question about it being a baby once brought to full term and what does the word "use" really entail here. I don't know about how a child of rape would feel, but I imagine that I'd have a real hard time growing up and coping with the fact that not only was I a child of rape but the only reason my mother had me (whether she gave me away or not) was because the state forced her to have me to "use" me as evidence. Therefore, my existence would only be due to that fact that I wasn't really viewed as a person but really as just another piece of evidence. God, what a horrible knowledge to live with...

This can't be true!
What is wrong with some people and the outrageous laws they make?
The victim, who has already experienced a enough trauma is now going to have to endure nine months of pregnancy just to prove she was raped?
I guess at the end she could adopt the baby out but still, that's a whole new traumatic experience, or keep the baby and live with a financial burden because she was attacked!

This is horrible. Sometimes I wish Nibiru crashed into earth in 2012 and wiped out the plague that is the human race.....

reply to post by ArchPlayer


just to stick the boot in - a featus is only evidence of intercourse , rape is a seperate claim

reply to post by jcutler12888

Thank you for your courage to share. I have worked with many victims of rape and incest and seen the pain and suffering. I personally rejoice with survivors like yourself who have not become "damaged goods" but have chosen victory over the monsters. You are a wonderful role model for your daughter! I hold the same values that you have shared. I abhor the practice of using abortion as if it is a form of birth control. Ultimately, we will all stand in judgment and we will all need mercy! Thanks again!

reply to post by grayeagle


Thank you. I've been working on being the victor and not the victim for years...I'm still a work in progress but I'm doing a lot better than I once was.

reply to post by jcutler12888


Yes - jerk would be a vast understatement of what a rapist is.

I'm sorry about what happened to you. *Hugs*

As far as abortion and rape being a black and white issue, no, I don't think it is. I think it definitely complicates things. I am uncomfortable with the idea of abortion in general but unfortunately I think from a legal standpoint, it kind of has to be all or nothing. If rape is the only legal reason a woman can get an abortion unfortunately some people will use false accusations as a way to have access to it.

As far as the pro-choice movement in general, I just find it kind of disturbing how they act like abortion (in general, not for rape) is this great gift to women, especially when it's actually used for the purpose of gendercide in some countries. I think in many ways, abortion on-demand benefits men more than it benefits women.

reply to post by lampsalot


Thank you for the hugs. *hugs back* It's okay...I'm really one of the lucky ones. I'm just so terribly sorry for the girls and women who go through things like this and either can't overcome their ordeal...or don't even survive their ordeal.

I'm highly uncomfortable with abortion as well, when applied as a means of simply conveniently disposing of fetuses that are the products of consensual sexual encounters. But from a legal standpoint, it really doesn't have to be a black and white issue. I abhor the idea of abortion...but what I find even more offensive and horrific is the thought of a (hypothetical) twelve year old girl impregnated from being raped by her father and being unable to obtain an abortion because it has been outlawed by our government because people view it as a black and white, all or nothing issue and that child being forced to go through pregnancy and birth after she has already been through rape and incest. I find the idea of a (hypothetical) young woman who simply goes out to jog and is attacked and raped by a stranger and, upon finding out she is pregnant from the assault, finds out that she is unable to obtain an abortion because it's outlawed completely to make sure women couldn't lie about being raped to have the procedure performed. It simply isn't a black and white issue...to say that a woman could lie about being raped to obtain an abortion is a good enough reason to outlaw it completely is not fair to all the women who wouldn't be lying about being raped and want to abort their resulting pregnancies. It would virtually be a punitive and insulting measure against victims..."Well, you may have been raped but then again, you may be lying so we can't give you an abortion...sorry, we just really can't be sure if you're being honest!".Not to mention, if it's all or nothing, life-threatening pregnancies will end up killing both mother and child if abortion isn't an option. There are rarely true black and white, all or nothing situations...and abortion simply isn't one. As much as I do not support abortion being used flippantly, I also completely support it when used for all the right reasons...having sex and not wanting to deal with the consequences is NOT the right reason for abortions, but being impregnated through rape/incest or a pregnancy threatening the mother's life are definitely THE definition of the right reasons for abortions. I usually think all that "Keep your laws off my body!" feminist stuff is kind of stupid...but in the situation of being impregnated by rape/incest or having a life threatening pregnancy, they damn well better keep their laws off of me and any other female's body because these are the situations where a woman should without a doubt have the choice to keep or terminate her pregnancy.

I 100% agree with you and share the same feelings about how the pro-choice movement treats abortion like the greatest thing since sliced bread...I mean, it's the termination of a human. I wouldn't be so unnerved by it if they weren't so cavalier about it...I mean, it's a serious matter, it shouldn't be treated like an errand..."Today's to-do list...do laundry, pick up bread and milk, get abortion." I mean, really? That level of detachment from the act is just...too effin' creepy. And as far as abortion being used gender selectively and as a means of controlling population, there simply isn't a word in the dictionary for how heinous and horrific I find it to be. That's a level of wrong and terrible that I can't even comprehend and my heart breaks for all the innocent lives altered or ended by these despicable practices.

I think that on-demand abortions "benefit" women and men equally for the most part, but that the most of the "benefits" for men differ greatly from the "benefits" for women. Men get out of eighteen years of child support and the hassle of a "baby mama"''s presence in their life, women get out of having to bring a child to term and give birth and care for a child for eighteen years. Either way, on-demand abortions are just selfish and wrong...instead of throwing away a human being, why not just accept the consequences of your actions and if you don't want the child, have it and give it to one of the many loving couples and families who would give anything to have a child?

Protecting the "rights" of an unborn child is almost as silly as protecting the integrity of a "god" no ones actually sure exists. Either way, you have to step on someone to do both.

A woman being denied access to an abortion after being raped? Are you serious? Am i really reading this?? Someone please hit me with a 2 by 4 because I want to wake up from this nightmare.

Originally posted by jcutler12888
find the idea of a (hypothetical) young woman who simply goes out to jog and is attacked and raped by a stranger and, upon finding out she is pregnant from the assault, finds out that she is unable to obtain an abortion because it's outlawed completely to make sure women couldn't lie about being raped to have the procedure performed. It simply isn't a black and white issue...to say that a woman could lie about being raped to obtain an abortion is a good enough reason to outlaw it completely is not fair to all the women who wouldn't be lying about being raped and want to abort their resulting pregnancies. It would virtually be a punitive and insulting measure against victims..."Well, you may have been raped but then again, you may be lying so we can't give you an abortion...sorry, we just really can't be sure if you're being honest!".Not to mention, if it's all or nothing, life-threatening pregnancies will end up killing both mother and child if abortion isn't an option.

I think that on-demand abortions "benefit" women and men equally for the most part, but that the most of the "benefits" for men differ greatly from the "benefits" for women. Men get out of eighteen years of child support and the hassle of a "baby mama"''s presence in their life, women get out of having to bring a child to term and give birth and care for a child for eighteen years. Either way, on-demand abortions are just selfish and wrong...instead of throwing away a human being, why not just accept the consequences of your actions and if you don't want the child, have it and give it to one of the many loving couples and families who would give anything to have a child?

Oh I didn't mean I think the fact women could lie meant that abortion for rape victims shouldn't be available ... I was actually saying that because women can be raped, unfortunately that means I believe on-demand abortions do have to be legal, because it's tricky to prove rape even if they actually were raped. I truly do believe that vast majority of the time, women are telling the truth about being raped. But I mean, what would getting an abortion require, a rape claim or a conviction of the rapist?

A "rape exception" would just be a disaster from a legal standpoint, so unfortunately I do think we need to have abortion available on-demand, do you agree? Just because abortion is legal doesn't mean that we can't encourage women to keep their babies in other ways, so I don't think we should just totally buy into this idea that pregnancy is a trivial binary choice either.

And not only that but also the mother's life thing and the fact that even women who aren't raped, some of them might try to abort the child themselves if they can't deal with their pregnancy, even if it was caused by sex with someone that they love.

I guess I'm pretty ambivalent about the issue. I'm technically pro-choice but I dislike the idea of abortion as a "choice". I think there are valid reasons to be on either side of the fence but I find the pro-choice movement trivializes and even downright glorifies abortion and the pro-life movement in many cases seems more truly interested in punishing women for being promiscuous and in demonizing sex than it does in saving babies.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


After a few weeks is actually much easier to use aborted material because to test in utero means the child has to be carried to the second term.