Order Needs Chaos

I found this on a site about the occult, which literally means "hidden knowledge". It's a discussion of chaos and order, and how they need each other in order to exist.

Its everywhere and you can not deny it. I think chaos needs order to maintain its chaos just as much as order needs chaos. You cannot have pure chaos because it will form itself into order. Just as much as you cannot have pure order for chaos will be made out of it. Unless you want pure destrucion you need both. The world we live in today is gaining to much order so much that when the chaos rises above it which it will it is going to be a world destroyer. You cannot control chaos and it is being attempted, the more bounds you set to it the more it will break. I'm talking about a domino effect, which is order believing that any chaos must be stopped when and before it can even appear. Such as putting certain things in place which would detour it from animating. It's just a detour that will come back with more force behind it. When order does not rise above chaos to control it you maintain balance. To me order is more chaotic. I say make order out of chaos it's the only way to control it. Instead of saying there is only order and there will only be order.

Chaos clearly becomes order. Breaking glass and explosions follow the laws of physics. Torn relationships repair themselves, stronger than before. Wounds heal. You can see that in the world today. And order eventually becomes chaos, because everything contains energy, from the motion of wheels to the spinning of atomic particles.

The reason I mention this is because in a lot of places, people have become afraid of motion, change, chaos. Bu the longer you fight chaos, the more severe it becomes. That's why we're suffering, because we are resisting change. We are fighting the chaos that will evolve our world.

That's how I see it.

I think chaos needs order to maintain its chaos

Why?
The definition of chaos is not order. If it needed order, to maintain itself, then it would be order that looks like chaos.

just as much as order needs chaos.

No, that would lead to chaos and would not be order.

You cannot have pure chaos because it will form itself into order.
What? The definition of chaos is chaos. Not order. But chaos.
If it formed itself to order, it would be, per definition, order and not chaos.

Just as much as you cannot have pure order

What?
If things are in order, they are in order. That's the definition.

for chaos will be made out of it.

No!

Unless you want pure destrucion you need both.

.......

The world we live in today is gaining to much order so much that when the chaos rises above it which it will it is going to be a world destroyer.

We need more magnets.

You cannot control chaos and it is being attempted, the more bounds you set to it the more it will break.

But.. didn't this whole thing start with there having to be order for there to be chaos, otherwise it would just become order? Now it's the opposite?

I'm talking about a domino effect,

And I about magnets.

which is order believing that any chaos must be stopped when and before it can even appear.
Such as putting certain things in place which would detour it from animating. It's just a detour that will come back with more force behind it. When order does not rise above chaos to control it you maintain balance. To me order is more chaotic. I say make order out of chaos it's the only way to control it. Instead of saying there is only order and there will only be order.

Swallowing magnets over and over again until they flip their polarities so that you will become a magnet, and the magnets will become you.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Maybe all chaos obeserved is already in perfect order in another dimension that the observer cant perceive yet.
Maybe chaos and order are illusions of the observer not able to recognize itself as they are the refllections of the observer. From one angle (persepective) something looks like its in perfect order and from one angle it looks like chaos, bit like those those hologram pictures.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I agree. Chaos is not chaos until it has something of order to make chaotic. Order is not order until it has something chaotic to order. One cannot exist, as a concept, without the other.

I wrote a thread on this a while back:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Nevertheless

Why?
The definition of chaos is not order. If it needed order, to maintain itself, then it would be order that looks like chaos.

Duality. Everything has an opposite. In order for there to be chaos, there must be something that differentiates from the qualities of chaos or chaos itself would be called existence. The fact that we have to specify chaos tells me that we noticed something we felt needed to be defined as distinct idea, and that means it is differentiated. If there is no order, then there is no chaos. There is only existence.

Obviously, this isn't the case - for instance, entropy. A clear case of chaos. And evolution. A clear case of order.

No, that would lead to chaos and would not be order.

That's where I see something special, but that's another topic entirely. The order values outweigh the chaos values, creating a build-up of order in spite of the chaos, until the chaos becomes a tool by which to refine order rather than destroy it completely. Like pruning a tree.

What?
If things are in order, they are in order. That's the definition.

Point out something to me that is perfect, from the smallest subatomic particles to the mass as a whole. If anyone can find a flaw in it, or something they would like changed, then there is chaos. There is a conflicting impression being conveyed somewhere in that object or idea. Find me something that everyone will find to be perfect. Nothing needs to be added or taken away.

When you have found that perfection, you have found pure order. Until then, your understanding of order is less than...well, orderly.

Remember, the quoted selection in my original post in this thread is not my own words. It is only someone else's reflection of an idea I've been chewing on for while. I wanted to show it to ATS and see how deeply we can explore the numerous subtleties of order and chaos.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It seems like all is temporary except for Chaos.

The fire is burning bright, until it burns out and turns back to darkness.

Motion is happening until it stops and becomes still again.

The mind is empty until it learns concepts and ideas.

Order is established, until it is taken down by chaos.

That's why the occult is brought in such a negative light. I'd rather say you've got it from a satanic site at least.

Chaos is another word for disorder. No chaos without order, yet order without chaos. Chaos is lower than order. Chaos in greek means confused?
Chaos is temporary.

reply to post by Angle


I didn't say I got it from a Satanic site because everyone would judge it before they even read it. People are funny like that. Regardless, chaos is not temporary. I've already explained it. I grow weary of repeating myself.

Chaos is bound to become order again, from another viewpoint there is order in the chaos.

Originally posted by Nevertheless

I think chaos needs order to maintain its chaos

Why?
The definition of chaos is not order. If it needed order, to maintain itself, then it would be order that looks like chaos.

...

Swallowing magnets over and over again until they flip their polarities so that you will become a magnet, and the magnets will become you.

Good say. Pure chaos is random, an existential existance. I would venture that chaos would exist regardless of an ordered system in place, and the only way it "relies" on order is if it beomes emeshed with an orderly environment which was the societal norm. I like your explanation about magnets as regards the methodology in place.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Nevertheless

 

Why?
The definition of chaos is not order. If it needed order, to maintain itself, then it would be order that looks like chaos.

Duality. Everything has an opposite. In order for there to be chaos, there must be something that differentiates from the qualities of chaos or chaos itself would be called existence. The fact that we have to specify chaos tells me that we noticed something we felt needed to be defined as distinct idea, and that means it is differentiated. If there is no order, then there is no chaos. There is only existence.

Defining something by what it isn't is a wearysome, voluminous process. Defining either term in relation to it's opposite is a common tactic to raise understandings, but doesn't do justice for proponants of direction : it's like tying a lodestone to tenets of order, and disintegrating (etc) thw willfulness and apathies of chaos. I disagree that without order there is no chaos, for without order, there is only chaos. Either term could be defined as an absence of the other, and the duality is in our minds only. We are dealing with two very different concepts, and the appearance of chaos is usually symptomic of a conflicting order, even if those points of order involve conflicting the declared order.

Chaos is just order we don't understand yet. As we gain a greater understanding of nature we start to notice patterns and connections that previously eluded us. Since time goes on forever, and understanding being a subset of time, there will always be both order and chaos. They're a perceptual duality.

reply to post by circlemaker


You take an ice sculpture and carve it. That chaos you bring to it molds a beautiful representation of reality. Then it melts. You float a paper boat in it, and again, you have a moment of beauty. Chaos is only as terrible as what you take from it. Personally, I believe that chaos provides wonderful opportunities to practice the art of making positive change. And every time you practice, you become better at turning chaos into order. But first, you must have lead to transform into gold. That's why order needs chaos, just like science needs men. Men weren't born knowing science. They learned it. We aren't born knowing order. We learn it. How do we learn it? Polishing. Lots and lots of polishing. Without black, there is no defining or understanding white. To know what something is, you must know what it is not. And even then, you have yet to appreciate it.

That's why order needs chaos. Just like man needs woman to create a child, just like fire needs water to nourish the wood it will eventually consume, order needs chaos to refine it. The sharp edges will break away, the surface will harden, until there is nothing more for chaos to do.