In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses aren't people

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posted on Jan, 27 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Charles,

I had to take some time and sleep on how I would answer your questions. You have presented it as the legal and moral conundrum that it is. The issue is rife with contradictions, conflicting ideology and spiritual and social issues.

Abortion is a subject that can bring the best and worse out of society. We have those, on both sides, who dig their feet in and stand their moral ground, come hell or high water. Both sides have legitimate concerns, both sides are fighting for "human rights" and a better world for our children.

Ultimately, their are two aspects, at least, to the abortion issue, biology and self determination. The question of our day concerns balancing the rights of the woman to choose whether or not she wants to become a mother, and when that should happen, and with whom should she share the experience.

After thousands of years of oppression, women have forced their way into a man's world, and have gained the rights to vote, to own property, to marry who they love, to not be beaten or raped by their husbands, and to serve society in the highest places.

But women are still subjugated by their own biology. As populations grow and society finds itself scrambling to accommodate the care, nutrition, education, housing and jobs for the growing masses, science plays "catch-up" seeking to find ways to curb the rampant and unchecked growth and allow for family planning.

At present, family planning solutions lie in one of two choices, abstinence or birth control. While understand that many religious folk promote abstinence, and find birth control to be a sin, that is a decision to be made by the faithful, and can't be forced on the secular masses.

Unfortunately, the most reliable birth control options today, ultimately, rely upon the killing of a potential human being, whether it be stopping a fertilized egg from implanting or removing it afterward.

I honestly believe that science will soon overtake the problem of stopping the cycle of life, and our arguments regarding the sanctity of life will become obsolete, as we find better solutions. There are amazing breakthroughs dawning, and although every new scientific avenue presents new moral and ethical questions, I believe that abortion will soon become obsolete, without having to kill a fetus or deny a woman's reproductive rights.

This is just one example of the possibilities in the near future Making Abortion Obsolete Also, there are more and more viable male contraceptive methods becoming available, as well as new choices on the horizon for women.



If I could switch back to your last response to me for a minute? I think I understand the importance of "right to choose." One place where I'm concerned about it is that it seems to even be superior to law itself. The law can't seem to logically say "The foetus is not a human" without running into the boyfriend killing the kid problem. Nor can it say "The foetus is a human" without having problems with right to abortion supporters.


I don't think that anyone would argue that a fetus is not human. Of course it's human, and it's alive. The question lies with viability. It took the Catholic Church over 1500 years to determine that indigenous people were worthy of salvation and that they had more than "animal" souls. Now, the church proclaims that all human's have divine souls, and that those souls enter at conception.

Now, not everyone believes in souls, and of those that do, we can't agree on when the soul enters the body. Many people agree that it happens at the time of "quickening," when the mother becomes aware of the life inside her because of the babies movement, and the bonding between the two that occurs. This is usually around 5 months, which is the present USA cut off period of "abortion on demand."



CONTINUED............



edit on 27-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 27 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


CONTINUED:

I think the question of a boyfriend kicking a pregnant woman, in order to induce an abortion, should be seen as a crime of aggravated assault, and any "mischief" that ensues should be seen the same way as any other criminal situation where, in the commission of a crime, another, additional crime was committed, the perpetrator should be punished for both crimes.

In this case, the crime of forcing or physically coercing an abortion, is illegal and punishable. It's also a violation of the woman's basic human rights, and is a "severe deprivation of physical liberty" and should be punished a such. The degree of fetal development, the woman's intent and the degree of personal investment and psychological and physical damage should be all be taken into consideration when determining restitution and punishment, as well.


This question, "Is the foetus a human or not?" is a major societal question with huge ramifications, yet we say "Meh, it's whatever each woman wants it to be in each situation, and she can change her mind whenever she wants." In my mind, that seems to be an unsatisfactory, and uncomfortable, dodging of the question.


In the case being discussed in this thread, the fetuses in question were at 7 months of gestation, and were mature enough to survive outside the womb, with medical aid. In this case, the intent of the woman is clear, she intended to give birth and had no intention of aborting.

No woman in the USA can present herself at 7 months and demand an abortion because she "changed her mind". In the USA, the cut off time for "abortion on demand" is 22 weeks. For many women, changing her mind isn't the issue, as she never intended to get pregnant and had no intention of being a mother, so abortion was her first choice. There may be women who decide that they will carry their unexpected pregnancy, and then, due to circumstances, she may change her mind, and decide to abort. But she can't just change her mind at any time, she must make her decision within the legal _

Whether not not the woman sees her situation as housing a person or an uninvited and unholy parasite is a perception belonging to her, and her alone. The law is clear, that a fetus before 22 weeks is NOT a viable life and deserves no right to protection. A woman who finds herself pregnant, after months of trying and planning, is going to view her pregnancy differently than a woman her finds herself pregnant due to rape or accidental circumstances.

As long as the law is clear on this issue, it matters not how many times a woman changes her mind. As a society, we have agreed that the self determination of the woman is more important that the life inside of her, during a certain amount of time. After that, even though society can't in good conscience deem that that life has more rights then the woman, "abortion on demand" is too repugnant for our society to condone.

Hopefully soon, science will find a way to continue to grant woman rights to decide if and when to have a child, and not have to kill the unwanted zygotes and fetuses.


edit on 27-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 27 2013 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by windword
 



Empty argument! All reproduction is done for selfish reasons. There is no unselfish reason to have children.


Sure, if you ask a pro-choicer
.
edit on 26-1-2013 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)


50 million dead. Biggest massacre ever. You can not put a spin on that. 50 million murdered souls..

To argue that abortion should be a womans choice is to argue it is okay for her to murder her baby if she does not want the baby. No way around it except to try to call the baby not alive. This is simple.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by jibeho
IN this particular case the "fetuses" in question were 7 months. My twins were born healthy at 7 1/2 months. They spent about 2 weeks in NICU . How can anyone say that a 7 month fetus is not a person? Ever feel a BABY kick in the womb at 7 months? Ever see a live action 3D ultrasound of twins at 7 months?

Life begins at conception and continues to grow and develop until birth.



Have you ever seen this about the practice of late term abortion in which the baby is delivered live and then let to die:

www.youtube.com...



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by windword


Ultimately, their are two aspects, at least, to the abortion issue, biology and self determination. The question of our day concerns balancing the rights of the woman to choose whether or not she wants to become a mother, and when that should happen, and with whom should she share the experience.


Choosing whether to become a mother comes BEFORE the ACT that produces that new life growing in her, not after.


After thousands of years of oppression, women have forced their way into a man's world, and have gained the rights to vote, to own property, to marry who they love, to not be beaten or raped by their husbands, and to serve society in the highest places.


Which has nothing to do with the barbarian slaughter of unborn babies in the womb.







I don't think that anyone would argue that a fetus is not human. Of course it's human, and it's alive. The question lies with viability.


You can take a 6 month old, or one year old, leave it all by itself in the woods, without protection and nurture and it will not be "viable" either.

Viability has nothing to do with the scientific fact that growing baby in a mother's womb is a living, human being.

The only difference between that baby in the womb and a 10 year old is time, water and nutrients.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword


Ultimately, their are two aspects, at least, to the abortion issue, biology and self determination. The question of our day concerns balancing the rights of the woman to choose whether or not she wants to become a mother, and when that should happen, and with whom should she share the experience.


Choosing whether to become a mother comes BEFORE the ACT that produces that new life growing in her, not after.


A woman who becomes pregnant due to a birth control failure, made her choice NOT to become a mother. She has every right to terminate that pregnancy.



After thousands of years of oppression, women have forced their way into a man's world, and have gained the rights to vote, to own property, to marry who they love, to not be beaten or raped by their husbands, and to serve society in the highest places.


Which has nothing to do with the barbarian slaughter of unborn babies in the womb.


I think you mean "unrealized" babies. A zygote nor a fetus are babies yet.

When you stand up against economically driven war, human trafficking, religiously based ethnic cleansing, corporate pollution in under developed countries, enforced starvation, etc. etc. maybe we can begin to take your righteous indignation more seriously.




I don't think that anyone would argue that a fetus is not human. Of course it's human, and it's alive. The question lies with viability.


You can take a 6 month old, or one year old, leave it all by itself in the woods, without protection and nurture and it will not be "viable" either.

Viability has nothing to do with the scientific fact that growing baby in a mother's womb is a living, human being.

The only difference between that baby in the womb and a 10 year old is time, water and nutrients.


And that would be crime, punishable under the law.

Anyone can take care of a newborn infant. Only one person can carry a pregnancy to term.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by jibeho
IN this particular case the "fetuses" in question were 7 months. My twins were born healthy at 7 1/2 months. They spent about 2 weeks in NICU . How can anyone say that a 7 month fetus is not a person? Ever feel a BABY kick in the womb at 7 months? Ever see a live action 3D ultrasound of twins at 7 months?

Life begins at conception and continues to grow and develop until birth.



Have you ever seen this about the practice of late term abortion in which the baby is delivered live and then let to die:

www.youtube.com...


Did you know that instructions on how to break fetal bones and cause a late term abortion is in the Talmud? Yes, even the ancients believed that the life of the mother was more important than that of the fetus threatening it.

As far the inhumane practice of allowing the slow and languishing death of the destined to die, it is unfortunate that euphanasia and assisted suicide, still aren't acceptable in this day and age.

edit on 28-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by windword


Hopefully soon, science will find a way to continue to grant woman rights to decide if and when to have a child, and not have to kill the unwanted zygotes and fetuses.




Women already have the right of "if and when to have a child", science does not grant that.

This might sound radical, but we have known what causes pregnancy for thousands of years already.

The choice is whether to participate in the cause of pregnancy, that determines the "if and when to have a child."

To willing participate is to make a choice that has consequences. If it's a bad choice, don't make an innocent baby pay for another's bad choice with it's life.

The US Declaration of Independence lays down the God given right to LIFE, but barbarism has overthrown that principle of liberty in the heinous, barbaric murder of innocent babies sacrificed on the altar of convenience.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


If you think that a government that sanctions the wanton murder of the most vulnerable in this society, that of unborn children, what the HELL makes you think it gives a rat's patootie about YOU?



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by windword

www.youtube.com...

Did you know that instructions on how to break fetal bones and cause a late term abortion is in the Talmud? Yes, even the ancients believed that the life of the mother was more important than that of the fetus threatening it.


Non sequitur.

We are not talking about abortions to save the life of the mother, now are we.

So, your comment is irrelevant.

edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by windword



I think you mean "unrealized" babies. A zygote nor a fetus are babies yet.


No, they are human beings, growing, developing human beings just as a one year old is.

The only difference between that baby human being in the womb and you is time, water and nurients.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword

www.youtube.com...

Did you know that instructions on how to break fetal bones and cause a late term abortion is in the Talmud? Yes, even the ancients believed that the life of the mother was more important than that of the fetus threatening it.


Non sequitur.

We are not talking about abortions to save the life of the mother, now are we.

So, your comment is irrelevant.

edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)


I know of no other legal reason to perform late term abortion, in the US, other than to save the life of the mother,. Please site other legal reasons.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by windword


A woman who becomes pregnant due to a birth control failure, made her choice NOT to become a mother.


She chose to engage in an act that has consequences.

The problem is, most Americans today are so selfish, self absorbed, self centered and spoiled that they want what they think are rights to do anything they want and when making bad choices not having the responsibility to face the consequences.


She has every right to terminate that pregnancy.


She, nor anyone has the right to murder that human being growing inside her womb.

That growing baby is not part of her body. It has totally different DNA, different blood type, and is a separate human being that relies on her for the materials of growth, but it is NOT part of her body. The baby is growing inside her.

It's amazing that most Americans do not grasp that very simple biological FACT.

But abortion is not about FACTS.

It is about selfish, self centered, self absorbed, spoiled people wanting to escape the responsibility for their bad choices.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword

www.youtube.com...

Did you know that instructions on how to break fetal bones and cause a late term abortion is in the Talmud? Yes, even the ancients believed that the life of the mother was more important than that of the fetus threatening it.


Non sequitur.

We are not talking about abortions to save the life of the mother, now are we.

So, your comment is irrelevant.

edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)


I know of no other legal reason to perform late term abortion, in the US, other than to save the life of the mother,. Please site other legal reasons.


LOL.

I already have. Plainly.
edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword



I think you mean "unrealized" babies. A zygote nor a fetus are babies yet.


No, they are human beings, growing, developing human beings just as a one year old is.

The only difference between that baby human being in the womb and you is time, water and nurients.



No they are not. As far as the sanctity of life, there is no difference in the fertilized egg that is flushed away during a woman's cycle, and an aborted fetus in the early stages of development.

They are not sovereign individuals with the ability of thought, self determination, or autonomy.

Your argument is way oversimplified. A woman invests a lot more than time, food and water into a pregnancy.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword

www.youtube.com...

Did you know that instructions on how to break fetal bones and cause a late term abortion is in the Talmud? Yes, even the ancients believed that the life of the mother was more important than that of the fetus threatening it.


Non sequitur.

We are not talking about abortions to save the life of the mother, now are we.

So, your comment is irrelevant.

edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)


I know of no other legal reason to perform late term abortion, in the US, other than to save the life of the mother,. Please site other legal reasons.


LOL.

I already have. Plainly.
edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)


Please, don't leave me in the dark. Please show me where you have already stated the legal reasons for a late term abortion in the US.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword



I think you mean "unrealized" babies. A zygote nor a fetus are babies yet.


No, they are human beings, growing, developing human beings just as a one year old is.

The only difference between that baby human being in the womb and you is time, water and nurients.



No they are not.


Yes they are.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword

www.youtube.com...

Did you know that instructions on how to break fetal bones and cause a late term abortion is in the Talmud? Yes, even the ancients believed that the life of the mother was more important than that of the fetus threatening it.


Non sequitur.

We are not talking about abortions to save the life of the mother, now are we.

So, your comment is irrelevant.

edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)


I know of no other legal reason to perform late term abortion, in the US, other than to save the life of the mother,. Please site other legal reasons.


LOL.

I already have. Plainly.
edit on 28-1-2013 by JuniorBeauchamp because: (no reason given)


Please, don't leave me in the dark. Please show me where you have already stated the legal reasons for a late term abortion in the US.


Surely you are not so naive as to think they are all "legal".



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:51 PM
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Such is the twisted mind of modern educated barbarians to try to use a technicality as justification for the murder of innocent babies.



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by JuniorBeauchamp

Originally posted by windword


A woman who becomes pregnant due to a birth control failure, made her choice NOT to become a mother.


She chose to engage in an act that has consequences.


And there are remedies for the biological ramifications of having sex. They are birth control, which in many instances causes abortion, and abortion.


The problem is, most Americans today are so selfish, self absorbed, self centered and spoiled that they want what they think are rights to do anything they want and when making bad choices not having the responsibility to face the consequences.


Having a child is one the most selfish things a person can do. Making the decision to abort, many times, is the most responsible thing to do.



She has every right to terminate that pregnancy.


She, nor anyone has the right to murder that human being growing inside her womb.


Says you! Abortion, by law, is not murder. That's just your opinion, for what it's good for.

That growing baby is not part of her body. It has totally different DNA, different blood type, and is a separate human being that relies on her for the materials of growth, but it is NOT part of her body. The baby is growing inside her.

It is still her body and her decision who takes up residency inside of her.


It's amazing that most Americans do not grasp that very simple biological FACT.

But abortion is not about FACTS.

It is about selfish, self centered, self absorbed, spoiled people wanting to escape the responsibility for their bad choices.


How does a birth control failure, rape or incest constitute a bad choice?



posted on Jan, 28 2013 @ 02:58 PM
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America is on the decline. The American Holocaust of abortion on demand is the cause of Judgment falling on this once great nation.





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