Quran Vs. Bible (And the vast contradictions between the two)

reply to post by HoneyBe

It's hard to
explain, but for example. The Quran
states one of the requirements is to
believe in all THREE Books; Torah, Gospel, Quran. So IF and from a Muslim
perspective here, IF that is a
"requirement" then why do Muslims
constantly state their Religion is true
and perfect because the Bible was
altered? I have literally had this discussion with Muslims until I am
quite blue in the face and they still will
not grasp it.

(5:46) And We sent Jesus, the son of Mary, after those Prophets, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and which confirms the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and a guidance and admonition for the God-fearing. (5:47) Let the followers of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein, and those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are the transgressors. (5:48) Then We revealed the Book to you (O Muhammad!) with Truth, confirming whatever of the Book was revealed before, and protecting and guarding over it. Judge, then, in the affairs of men in accordance with the Law that Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires in disregard of the Truth which has come to you. For each of you We have appointed a Law and a way of life. And had Allah so willed, He would surely have made you one single community; instead, (He gave each of you a Law and a way of life) in order to test you by what He gave you. Vie, then, one with another in good works. Unto Allah is the return of all of you; and He will then make you understand the truth concerning the matters on which you disagreed.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
First it was Moses.
Then you doubt Abraham.
Now you have a problem with Adam?
Are you even a Christian??

Adam never existed. It's a creation myth adopted from the Summerians. The facts are there. Easily proven. That's just the truth of it.

Moses sucked. He was not a nice guy. He ordered the slaughter of thousands of people, but then told his male troops that they could keep the enemy girls who were virgins .. for their own pleasure of course. He said all that after telling the Jews not to murder or commit adultry. :shk: That's just the truth of it.

Abraham was insane. He heard voices telling him to plot to murder his son. That's not exactly a stable dude.

JESUS is New Testament. MUCH more recent. Historical documents are traceable to the authors etc etc. BIG DIFFERENCE.

reply to post by FlyersFan

JESUS is New Testament. MUCH more recent.

So more "recent" is more believable, eh?

Then your old argument about the Koran being 600 years "later" is invalid then?

Originally posted by HoneyBe

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by HoneyBe

 

Very good you brought this up! Yes, many Muslims do not believe this! All Christians do! We all believe we are "sons" of God and that Jesus is the "Son" of God.

Thats an english take on the subject.
The concept of A son and THE son does not exist in the Bible.

Funny how both Adam and Jesus are called sons of God in the Bible.. yet only Jesus is seen as THE son of God... in the sense of being divine.

These are subjects which I have discussed in depth at ATS.

Here are some of my threads on this subject...
The other "only begotten" son of God (David)
Adam and Jesus...the "sons of God"
"Jesus is God" = Mary is "the mother of God"

I will go through your threads and read them, thank you!!

It's not funny that Jesus is seen as the Son of God in the sense of being divine. He really is both divine and the son of God. Which makes Him..."the divine son of God" He was not conceived by semen and egg, He was just conceived inside Mary's womb, she carried Him and delivered Him only. So technically speaking here or logically anyway, He has no earthly father, whereas you and I and David do. Now Adam can also be perceived as the first son of God, he too had no father. (So let's stop there for one moment on Adam and let me ask you something which I have never received an answer to and am really hoping you can provide one.)

And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis (Satan): he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith. (2: 34)

So we both agreed already that Adam, the first man was/is a son of God. And God commanded all creation or angels to bow to God's only and first man/son of God! Satan refused and we know what happened to Satan for refusing....

So then thousands of years later...God creates a second Adam but not from earth this time or dust, but from spirit and flesh (God and Mary) And same exact scenario is repeated...God commands all mankind this time to bow in worship/honor of His son Jesus.

So....if Satan was cast out of heaven for not bowing to Adam as God commanded, then do you honestly think humans would receive any less punishment for not bowing to Jesus as God also commanded?

This is a particular area, that is going to be real difficult for you and I know this from experience so I just ask you to really ponder both situations Adam and Jesus and the comparisons and the outcome and the severe punishment Satan has received.

Its actually very simple to explain.
Hope you believe in angels.
Now even jewish text has teaching that angels are appointed to make sure everything works in order, even a plant growing.
Angels do the Will of God only. Now God made man with free will.
So telling angels to bow to Adam pbuh, was in sense making it clear that if humans go against the Will of God, angels are not to restrict or prevent them.
A simple example would be if an angel's work was to make a tree grow, and a man walk there with an axe and starts cutting it, the angel will just "bow" to the will of man.
But again the angel is just doing the Will of God as God Willed that the angels "bow" to the will of man.
Hope this helps.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
So more "recent" is more believable, eh?
Then your old argument about the Koran being 600 years "later" is invalid then?

Not even close. Hang it up. The FIRST HAND accounts of Jesus are more current (recent) to Jesus time period than the Qu'ran fabrications which took place 600+ years later.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Flyerfan,
what i get from all your posts is that you choose to believe a man that was born at the start of the calender, teached a gospel and people claimed him to be born of virgin and to be god. This all is fine with you and you blieve him just on his word and the gospel he preached?
In short you claim, that a man came and said he was god and said, look i have this NT which proves it and you melt as you are enlightened and start worshipping him?!!

reply to post by FlyersFan

Not even close. Hang it up. The FIRST HAND accounts of Jesus are more current (recent) to Jesus time period than the Qu'ran fabrications which took place 600+ years later.

But MOST Christians rely on Old Testament prophecies to prove things about Jesus.
Since you have expressed doubt regarding Adam, Abraham and Moses.... all Old Testament characters, you can't be among those who call themselves Christians.

If you are, then are the Christians who hold Adam, Abraham and Moses in high regard.... false Christians?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
MOST Christians rely on Old Testament prophecies to prove things about Jesus.

Most include the prophecies from the old testament like Isaiah and Daniel .. but also MOST know that much of the old testament isn't literal history. Example - Noahs ark was a story by the Summerians that the Jews stole and rewrote as part of their own history. Example -many of the psalms that were supposedly written by David and that are in the bible can be found on the walls of much older egyptian tombs so obviously many were taken from the Egyptians and claimed as their own by the Jews.

Since you have expressed doubt regarding Adam, Abraham and Moses.... all Old Testament characters, you can't be among those who call themselves Christians.

Wrong. I am a Christian with a brain. What is clearly truth is sitting in front of us all. I'm not closing my eyes to the truth of something simpy because it goes against Christian programming.

If you are, then are the Christians who hold Adam, Abraham and Moses in high regard.... false Christians?

The Christians who take the entire bible as literal history are usually the fundamentalist christians. They are not a majority of Christians.

Funny how you are hell bent on trying to tell a New Testament Christian that she isn't Christian .. and yet you don't even understand Christianity at all ... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuunny!

Originally posted by logical7
you blieve him just on his word and the gospel he preached?

And the miracled performed that prove what he was saying is true.
ANYONE can claim to be God or God's prophet .. and then have nothing to back it up.
Like Muhammad. Lots of claims .. but no miracles from heaven to back it up.
Jesus .. backed it up.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The Christians who take the entire bible as literal history are usually the fundamentalist christians. They are not a majority of Christians.

So those Christians are false then?
I wonder what they think of a Christian who doubts Adam, Abraham and Moses.

Originally posted by HoneyBe
OK Nevertheless. You and another member asked that I re-read your post here. I am obviously missing something. And I was on very little sleep at the time I wrote this post and didn't expect many responses soon after, so forgive me.

That's alright.

Are you agreeing with me that the Bible is the infallible word of God?

No.

If so, do you agree there are contradictions between Quran and Bible? Have you read them both?

Why do you keep "if so":ing this?
It is completely irrelevant whether or not the Bible is the infallible word of god when it comes to finding contradictions between the Quran and Bible.

Again, there are contradictions between the Quran and The Bible for the simple reason that Jesus split Jews into Jews and Christians, i.e. those who believed Jesus or the stories of Jesus to be the One, and those who didn't.
Several hundred years later, Mohammed came along and explained how he got new orders from God, also telling that Jews were right about Jesus not being the one (only a great prophet).

You being religious and for some reason been both Christian and Muslim (if I understood you correctly), I guess you already know all this (and if not, I'd suggest asking God instead of weirdos on a site for weirdos).

So, again, what is the point of comparing these two books? They are different by definition. And regardless of either book being true.

I fell into the trap of believing the Bible and Quran were both given/ordained by the same God

How is that even possible? Please tell me more.
Also, do you believe there are several Gods? Isn't that a sin in both religions?

What is pointless? This topic? My welcoming any help here? Your thoughts? I did not understand the comment.

Comparing these books to find differences for the reasons stated in this and my earlier posts.

So *IF* The Bible is correct and legitimate (which I believe it is) Then right here in these few passages above we are given the wisdom to know that Islam is not a Religion ordained by the same God who sent forth the Bible.
*************************
Isn't that obvious regardless of the Bible being true or not?

Isn't what obvious? That Islam is not a Religion ordained by God?

You missed the word "same" from your own quote.
Yes, isn't it obvious that Islam is not a Religion ordained by the SAME God?
And yes, it is because Islam was specifically arisen to tell that both judaism and christianity was wrong. That's the whole point.

If that's your view then I would disagree. It is not obvious at all.

But it is.

There are people converting from all over the world, from different religions to Islam on a daily basis and the Religion has grown massive over just the last decade alone. If it was obvious, then the Religion would not have made it to the Western world.

People who seek a religion will find one.

And most Muslim's for sure will disagree with you! They believe it is the ONLY true Religion and that Quran has never been tainted with

Of course they disagree with me. They would disagree with my holy book too if I wrote one. It is understandable.

All in all, from your response now which I have read now three times, all I gather is that it's all pointless and now I've taken the time to respond to you that in a manner that I believe it is not pointless,

The comparison was pointless and I gave you hopefully a clearer explanation of why.
Talking about you switching religions was not pointless and I'd like to hear what answers you might have to my questions.

But if you think it's all pointless, then not much you can add here that's helpful, is there?

edit on 24-1-2013 by HoneyBe because: (no reason given)

Well, remarking that something is pointless and enlightening you on why that is could be of help, could it not?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
[So those Christians are false then?

Tsk tsk tsk ... I never said that.
Anyone who follows Christ is a Christian.

I wonder what they think of a Christian who doubts Adam, Abraham and Moses.

I don't. I simply don't care what they think of others.
Do the theological opinions of Sunnis change the theological opinions of Wahabbis?
No. They don't care. And guess what .. same with different christian groups.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n




You make some most excellent and lucid points here. Thanks for doing that, so I didn't have to. lol. Stars all around.

I'll add to this the fact that Christ himself, in the bible, teaches us how to pray. This prayer begins "OUR Father...."

I'm not familiar with the original language of a passage like John 3:16, though I suppose I should look into that, as I disagree with it. I actually disagree with most of what was supposedly written by "John."


And @ OP: Yes, it is true that the Bible tells us Jesus performed many miracles and great works. However, if you read the gospels carefully, you will see that he actually said his followers could do the same if only they had the faith that they could. IMO this does not single Jesus out as being particularly more divine, except perhaps in the regard that he learned (or naturally knew... though his "missing years" to me, hint at a learning) how to do that which all humans can do, but most have not....

I believe this is even truly one of the most important, if not THE most important message of the Gospels. I suppose some might see that as heretical. I guess that's okay, as I see the beliefs an practices of many as being hypocritical and counter to the true message of Christianity (intolerant, hateful, etc...)

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
you blieve him just on his word and the gospel he preached?

And the miracled performed that prove what he was saying is true.
ANYONE can claim to be God or God's prophet .. and then have nothing to back it up.
Like Muhammad. Lots of claims .. but no miracles from heaven to back it up.
Jesus .. backed it up.

there is a miracle.

Originally posted by HumAnnunaki
Know that I have no religion.. ..only faith.

The earliest recorded civilization, the Sumerians recorded the Creation
story long before any Biblical reference.
www.wikipedia.org...
They created the Adamu.

It is possible that Abraham as a devote believer was plagued with
schizophrenia or psychosis.

Moses was most definately evil and loses all credibilty after delivering
the Ten Commandments. Not only did the Moses slaughter many innocents,
he defiled the 'God Breathed" documents by adding over 1000 of HIS OWN commandments.

David was a murderer whom committed many acts against the Ten Commandments
including having his best freind murdered so that he may marry his freinds wife.
Covet, Murder and Adultry.

Soloman was the bastard child of David whom possessed a magical ring which can be
seen to that he used in nefarious ways.

Noah's Ark is indeed a Sumerian tale told through the Epic Story of Gilgamesh
www.wikipedia.org...

Jesus was postulated to be the incarnate of Adam.

Angels of the Bible are truely misinterpreted.
The Djinn and Angels are one and the same which has been
a defamation of presentation of the words Igigi and Aggelos
summary being they are one and the same equivalent to Elohim.

Jesus was a mortal man whom history turned into a fabled god.
To beleive that Jesus was anything other than a man goes AGAINST everything
he himself taught.

Jesus wished for all to worship the great creator and to live a Samaritan life,
for us all to be equal!

Before you choose to flame me, please read Mathew 7:21

"Not everyone whom says to me, Lord - Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven,
but only those whom do the work of my Father whom is in Heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, Lord - Lord, did we not prophecy in your name
and in your name drive out many demons and in your name perform many miracles.
Then I will tell them plainly - I NEVER NEW YOU, AWAY FROM ME, YOU EVILDOERS!"

Save your soul - COMMANDMENT NUMBER ONE

Well this thread got interesting! A little off topic but that's alright, some interesting perspectives in there! My main question if anyone can or would like to answer is why would one Angel of God; Gabriel deliver to conflicting messages about the same exact person Jesus? Do angels lie? I do not believe so unless they are fallen angels...or are about to fall. Does Satan masquerade as an "angel of light"? Yes. So let's just say Satan went to Mohammed, said he is Gabriel and gave him some truths (which he has of course) and threw some lies in there and the biggest would be of course regarding Jesus as the Son of God. That's what the battle was about and so why would it change? Same "mo" so to speak for Satan. And if this is true...then Islam is not a belief system from God at all. This is my concern.

reply to post by iwilliam


My topic is not about miracles, if you are referring to me as OP? I was asking about the clear contradiction which I've supplied in detail. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Originally posted by HoneyBe

Are you agreeing with me that the Bible is the infallible word of God?

Originally posted by Nevertheless
No.

Then the very first time I responded to you I was correct, yet you and another member asked me to re-read your post again as though I was missing some and mistaken. You do not believe it's infallible so I don't want to get off topic and side tracked with just debating the Bible infallibility-which I do believe and in my OP I did state this is for mainly believers of the Bible and/or believers of Quran, anyone else is welcome of course to comment, but your particular comments go way out of the realm of this topic of Quran vs. Bible.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

The Christians who take the entire bible as literal history are usually the fundamentalist christians. They are not a majority of Christians.

So those Christians are false then?
I wonder what they think of a Christian who doubts Adam, Abraham and Moses.

A lot of different "beliefs" and denominations refer to themselves as Christian, not all are indeed Christian. But one commonality will give a person the title or label "Christian" and that is all must believe that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God, the Messiah of the WORLD and died and rose again the third day. some Christians do believe Jesus is God incarnate, this is not an unforgivable sin, but it is debated not very beautifully between Christians who believe this and those who do not. We are permitted to call Him Lord, Savior, Messiah and we are permitted to pray anything in His NAME. God gave those rights to His Son.

Originally posted by logical7

Its actually very simple to explain.
Hope you believe in angels.
Now even jewish text has teaching that angels are appointed to make sure everything works in order, even a plant growing.
Angels do the Will of God only. Now God made man with free will.
So telling angels to bow to Adam pbuh, was in sense making it clear that if humans go against the Will of God, angels are not to restrict or prevent them.
A simple example would be if an angel's work was to make a tree grow, and a man walk there with an axe and starts cutting it, the angel will just "bow" to the will of man.
But again the angel is just doing the Will of God as God Willed that the angels "bow" to the will of man.
Hope this helps.

Thank you logical. Your view here was very simple and easy to understand. I do believe in angels. I do believe there is an order, from earth up the chain to God, woman, man, angels, Christ, God. (With God of course being the highest order and nothing above Him) God commands all beneath Him and Christ has the power given by God to command all beneath him. I'm just explaining it basically how it is written but not perfectly as there are not Scriptures in front of me right now and almost bed time. Are you Muslim? I have a specific question to ask if you are so I'll just wait til you come back