Abraham - true prophet of God or something else??

Originally posted by Akragon
I don't think there was anything wrong with Abraham, he was only following what his God wanted him to do...Just more evidence this isn't the true Father of creation in my humble opinion

Okay ... that's interesting. Abraham was sane, in your opinion, and was following what 'God' told him to do. So, if Abraham wasn't hallucinating, who do you think was talking to Abraham? The real creator ... an imposter .. an evil spirit ... an alien .... something else?

If it was the real creator .. what does that say about him (it)??

Originally posted by Akragon
Technically as the story goes... an angel stopped him from killing his son... Not this God

Interesting catch ... I missed that. So then technically God told Abraham to kill his son .. but then one of God's angels disobeyed God's Will and went and told Abraham not to kill the child. That's a whole new twist .. that angels in heaven would go against God's word and save humans from a psycho God or something ...

reply to post by babloyi


So according to Islam .. both Abraham and his child heard the voice of God and agreed to the murder/suicide. Is this considered to be 'sane' by Islamic standards? Since, supposedly, both of them heard the voice then it wouldn't be mental illness ... unless they were both having mental health problems. Which takes me back to the air being poisoned with radiation from the Sodom and Gommorah thing that had just recently happened before this .....



What if Abraham is found to be insane. Would would that do to Islam? What would it do to the Jews? What would it do to the Christians?? ( My guess .. it wouldn't effect Christians a whole heck of a lot. Most of us ignore Genesis and focus on the New Testament anyways. )

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

In ancient times, was he aware of how low the infant mortality rate was? I doubt so, as the current amazing figures blinds him to the facts of during that in ancient times. It wasnt so during the times of our ancestors.

Do you claim that circumcision at 8 days kept the infant mortality rate lower? I doubt that to be the case given the infections that can occur due to an open wound in those days, not to mention the diseases, such as herpes, that the Moleh who performs the circumcision may transfer from licking the effected area, as a part of the ritual!

The Hebrew chronicles is the only reliable source that mankind had depended on for centuries. Today, we realized that they may be older civilisations, but then again, in Genesis, it had already been mentioned, proving the ancient book had not been a lie. So, which civilisation that exist today is older, based upon written analyzed records and not stones of imagination and speculation?

Many of the writing on the pyramid walls are older than the the Bible's books, and were there before Moses supposedly wrote the first 5 books of the Bible.

The Vedas have been found to be older than the texts that the Bible has been derived from. BTW, just because the Bible acknowledges the fact that there were societies that existed before the "biblical flood" doesn't make the book the definitive truth. The Bible is the Hebrew version of their conquests and belief systems. In no does the Bible proof it's own validity.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Interesting catch ... I missed that. So then technically God told Abraham to kill his son .. but then one of God's angels disobeyed God's Will and went and told Abraham not to kill the child. That's a whole new twist .. that angels in heaven would go against God's word and save humans from a psycho God or something ...

The "angel of the Lord" was Jesus, as he's been with God from the beginning.

God gave us his only begotten Son and he tested Abraham to see if he would be willing to do the same.

Remember what Jesus said in the New Testament?

Matthew 10:37

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:26

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

We are not to love anyone more than God/Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined


Apologists!
All you fundamentalist mindset thinkers.
So the angel was Jesus, eh? So here
what you are doing is justifying mythology with stuff you just made up?!?!
You can just add or take away your own subject matter until it becomes palatable for your belief structure?

No wonder people can justify an evil god as being merciful.
At what point do you start questioning and stop rationalising?

1. How much do we know of ancient hygiene standards? There isn't much to know. But we do know today with our advances in science is that there is no harm with circumcision, and hygiene is a personal issue, not with the nanny secular state.


2. Some say why was the need for circumcision, if we are created beings, and it could have been removed earlier or came without that foreskin in the human DNA.

An answer to that would be to go back to the days of the first man. Adam was created for 1 purpose in the garden of eden - to manage the land. Like all created beings, they were naked, and the male private part was sheathed with a foreskin, to protect from the environment and ecology.

Unfortunately, Adam and Eve made the first sin, of gaining awareness, intelligence and knowledge, and incurred our Creator's wrath, and was driven out of Eden, but mercifully even then, not destroyed. For clothing, the first humans used animal skins, treated or untreated through trial and error, to cover up their body parts.

Try wearing an untreated animal skin today as clothes and see what how your skin will react.

It took several decades, if not centuries, to rebuild that trust with our Creator again - and again, He had mercy for His tested and chosen race of humans. Circumcison on that part of the body use for procreation of future generations became the covenant between Him and man.


3. Some claimed that the vedas were older, or egyptian texts were older, or even the bible was older. Truth is, can any of it be verified? Who is to say that the vedas or any scripture holds the truth? No one knows.

But one can use his 5 senses and brains to comprehend realities before one's eyes. Scripture that is true will ensure our survival. One that is false only lead to doom. So far, had the Bible's words failed us? None. It provided the moral and ethical guidelines that ensured our existance for centuries, a fact an honest human cannot deny.

There will be misinterpretations, for one can be wrong, or a leader becoming the tyrant who brooks no dissensions, however, in our modern age with freedom to speak, to share, to discuss, errors will be few.


4. Some here claim those who share insights are apologists. Thing is, if they don't believe in God, TO WHOM are the apologists apologizing for, even if they were even apologizing anything?

No rational human will readily subscribe to beliefs if it is against their will, and humans do have free will. However, for those who believe in God, they would have rationalized and determined the truths regarding the scriptures handed down and taught.

But for the ignorant, ignorances are their only shield to fight realities, to foolishly condemn and deride without first attempting to comprehend in full what the scriptures and the central tenets meant.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Akragon
I don't think there was anything wrong with Abraham, he was only following what his God wanted him to do...Just more evidence this isn't the true Father of creation in my humble opinion

Okay ... that's interesting. Abraham was sane, in your opinion, and was following what 'God' told him to do. So, if Abraham wasn't hallucinating, who do you think was talking to Abraham? The real creator ... an imposter .. an evil spirit ... an alien .... something else?

That would be The imposter...

If it was the real creator .. what does that say about him (it)??

He/she/it is not the true Father of creation...

Interesting catch ... I missed that. So then technically God told Abraham to kill his son .. but then one of God's angels disobeyed God's Will and went and told Abraham not to kill the child. That's a whole new twist .. that angels in heaven would go against God's word and save humans from a psycho God or something ...

Not exactly... The real creator has his angels as well...

The angel that stopped Abraham was not one of the OT Gods angels...

He ended up killing a Ram instead of his son... as a "sacrifice"... God does not need us to sacrifice the innocent for his pride... but the OT God demands it.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

But for the ignorant, ignorances are their only shield to fight realities, to foolishly condemn and deride without first attempting to comprehend in full what the scriptures and the central tenets meant.

Yeah? We all know that the Bible promoted war, murder, slavery, theft and rape. The Abrahamic religions and their nations of the world have dutifully followed that mandate, and many still use that model still today.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Judges 21:20-23


"So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them. So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them."

Praise the holy Bible!

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

1. How much do we know of ancient hygiene standards? There isn't much to know. But we do know today with our advances in science is that there is no harm with circumcision, and hygiene is a personal issue, not with the nanny secular state.

This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States
www.circumstitions.com...

That's today's statistics. What do think the rate was back in 1500 BC? Pretty high I'd bet.

reply to post by Akragon


I just found this gem in the Book of Jasher. Oh, the things that we were not told in the King James Bible!

46 And the day arrived when the sons of God came and placed themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with the sons of God before the Lord.
47 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? and Satan answered the Lord and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
48 And the Lord said to Satan, What is thy word to me concerning all the children of the earth? and Satan answered the Lord and said, I have seen all the children of the earth who serve thee and remember thee when they require anything from thee.
49 And when thou givest them the thing which they require from thee, they sit at their ease, and forsake thee and they remember thee no more.
50 Hast thou seen Abraham the son of Terah, who at first had no children, and he served thee and erected altars to thee wherever he came, and he brought up offerings upon them, and he proclaimed thy name continually to all the children of the earth.
51 And now that his son Isaac is born to him, he has forsaken thee, he has made a great feast for all the inhabitants of the land, and the Lord he has forgotten.
52 For amidst all that he has done he brought thee no offering; neither burnt offering nor peace offering, neither ox, lamb nor goat of all that he killed on the day that his son was weaned.
53 Even from the time of his son's birth till now, being thirty-seven years, he built no altar before thee, nor brought any offering to thee, for he saw that thou didst give what he requested before thee, and he therefore forsook thee.
54 And the Lord said to Satan, Hast thou thus considered my servant Abraham? for there is none like him upon earth, a perfect and an upright man before me, one that feareth God and avoideth evil; as I live, were I to say unto him, Bring up Isaac thy son before me, he would not withhold him from me, much more if I told him to bring up a burnt offering before me from his flock or herds.
55 And Satan answered the Lord and said, Speak then now unto Abraham as thou hast said, and thou wilt see whether he will not this day transgress and cast aside thy words.
www.sacred-texts.com...

Where have we heard that before?

65 And Abraham bound his son Isaac, and placed him on the altar upon the wood, and Isaac stretched forth his neck upon the altar before his father, and Abraham stretched forth his hand to take the knife to slay his son as a burnt offering before the Lord.

66 At that time the angels of mercy came before the Lord and spake to him concerning Isaac, saying,
67 0 Lord, thou art a merciful and compassionate King over all that thou hast created in heaven and in earth, and thou supportest them all; give therefore ransom and redemption instead of thy servant Isaac, and pity and have compassion upon Abraham and Isaac his son, who are this day performing thy commands.
68 Hast thou seen, O Lord, how Isaac the son of Abraham thy servant is bound down to the slaughter like an animal? now therefore let thy pity be roused for them, O Lord.

I wonder why the "angels of mercy" intervened, and why God listened to them and didn't follow through with his wager with Satan?

69 At that time the Lord appeared unto Abraham, and called to him, from heaven, and said unto him, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him, for now I know that thou fearest God in performing this act, and in not withholding thy son, thine only son, from me.
70 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, a ram was caught in a thicket by his horns; that was the ram which the Lord God had created in the earth in the day that he made earth and heaven.
71 For the Lord had prepared this ram from that day, to be a burnt offering instead of Isaac.
72 And this ram was advancing to Abraham when Satan caught hold of him and entangled his horns in the thicket, that he might not advance to Abraham, in order that Abraham might slay his son.
73 And Abraham, seeing the ram advancing to him and Satan withholding him, fetched him and brought him before the altar, and he loosened his son Isaac from his binding, and he put the ram in his stead, and Abraham killed the ram upon the altar, and brought it up as an offering in the place of his son Isaac.
www.sacred-texts.com...

But Satan does win a life that is valuable to Abraham anyway! Sneaky guy!

86 And behold, Satan came to Sarah in the shape of an old man, and he came and stood before her, and he said unto her, I spoke falsely unto thee, for Abraham did not kill his son and he is not dead; and when she heard the word her joy was so exceedingly violent on account of her son, that her soul went out through joy; she died and was gathered to her people.

funny
(beleive it or nuts)
having been visited at times, my observation is that the so called angels don't have much to do with the christian god:
quite the contrary..they led me to the work by Waddel I mentioned earlier.

I think christianty seeks to claim legitimacy by association with "angels" ( named after "AN" no less )

I think the angels as mentioned earlier up thread that stopped the sacrifice were consistant with what I know (FOR MYSELF) of their behavior: they want intelligent adult responsible democratic behavior from mankind for its own sake

reply to post by windword


If you wish to resort to sensationalist perfect Utopian imageries to support your views, which many deluded and ignorant atheists equally do so, then I will not argue with you, for I too hold the belief that 1 death is too many.

But look around you, do we live in Utopia, a perfect society and perfect world today? No. And neither did our ancestors.

We are only flawed mortals, fully capable of making mistakes, but with the capacity to correct errors.

You claimed today that neonatal circumcision caused 9 deaths out of every 100, 000 today in our modern flawed world and implied that circumcision was the sole cause of deaths.

Reality is, Negligences, wrong methodologies, etc were the main causes, even today, let alone during ancient times. Many more went through circumcision perfectly safe.

However, the reality of our modern world is that we, at this stage of scientific progress and evolution, had not even acheived 100% infant mortality rate in ANY country, let alone the world.

And infant mortality rate is a far bigger issue than circumcision. There are many other causes of such deaths and poverty being one of them. And poverty is a criminal societal neglect, which you and me are equally to be blamed for our apathy, if we are to use Utopian models as a standard to judge and condemn every single error mankind made..

reply to post by windword


In your post, alleging the slaughtering done by the hebrews in the book of Judges and Deuteronomy, would IMPLY that you hold the words of the bible as true.

I applaud you for accepting the truth finally.

And the reason why the hebrews had to do what they did, as explained in the bible, was that those men in the affected cities were no longer behaving as rational beings, but beasts, full of hate, hurt and harm to all, and those had to be exterminated.

If you can hold the bible's words as true, why cannot you accept that justification during an ancient and largely unedcuated but dangerous world?

But if you do not believe in the Bible, then equally those books and acts DID NOT HAPPEN. So why are you accusing jewish and muslim ancestors today, as both religious groups shared the same Patriach Abraham? Are you a closet anti-semite and anti-muslim who will clutch at straws to justify your hatred instead of seeking for truths?

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


I don't believe the deity in the Bible to be the true God. I do believe that the Hebrew people agreed to make this war deity their God. I don't know if this deity actually existed, but if it did, so did Krishna, Odin, Zeus and Baal, among others. Therefore, this Hebrew god is an impostor, claiming to be more than what he actually was.

If Deuteronomy 32:8 is true, then Yahweh is one of many of the "sons of god" of some extra-terrestrial corporations.

"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."

Yahweh grew impatient and lost hope in his charges and failed the mandate to care for and teach his people.

Dueteronomy 32:26
I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: 27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.

Who was Yahweh afraid of? The other gods, of course.

In his jealousy and insecurity he lied, and tried to make himself as "God."

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

But, Yahweh's failures and immorality didn't go unpunished.

1. Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the council of the gods; he judges among the gods.
2. How long will you judge unjustly, and show preference to the wicked? Selah.
3. Judge the poor and the orphans; do righteousness to the afflicted and dispossessed.
4. Deliver the poor and oppressed; save them from the hand of the evil. 5. They do not know and they have no understanding; they walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6. I said, “You are gods, and children of Elyon, every one of you.”
7. But you will die like mortals, and fall like one of the princes.
8. Rise up, O God, and judge the earth, for you have inherited all the nations

Here, The Most High, (The extra-terrestrial corporate CEO) condemns Yahweh, maybe others, to experience mortal death, before they can "rise up" and judge the earth, and the nations of their own inheritance.

So, if Yahweh was Jesus, as many Christians claim, then he died because of his own sin, and the sin that he led his people into. And, his life work was to undo the evil and the wrong that Yahweh imposed on his people.

And the reason why the hebrews had to do what they did, as explained in the bible, was that those men in the affected cities were no longer behaving as rational beings, but beasts, full of hate, hurt and harm to all, and those had to be exterminated.

This is the same excuse, full of intolerance, religious bias and justification for ethnic cleansing, that the Hebrews used to murder, rape and steal for their own personal and physical wealth, that the Catholic Church used to kill indigenous people all around the globe, to subdue non-believers during the crusades and all other religious zealots have used to bully and plow their way into the lands and societies that their greed and lust led them to.

Back to Abraham, if the story from the Book of Jubilees is true, then this God was playing a game with his colleague, and Abraham was merely a pawn in his wager, as was Job. The kind of trickery and torturous demands that were made of Abraham, Isaac and Sarah were evil, immoral and unnecessary for mankind's advancement. And the death of Sarah, was just collateral damage, that God didn't give two hoots about.

The God of the OT was capricious, a liar, and was used as an excuse for bad behavior by the Hebrew people.

reply to post by windword


1. You cannot pick and choose where religion is concerned. Either you believe, or you don't. No twisting around it or only mis-interpretations will abound.

You admitted to your self belief in other gods as being more true, and that is your right, but you have no right to criticize another's belief in their version of another, which you ignorantly thought is different.

The scriptures written in that book is sworn and testified as the words of the Almighty and truth. Thus, either you accept it as a whole or you do not. You cannot claim that the ancient hebrews slaughtered an ancient beast race if you do not even believe that book is true. That would only make you look illogical if not irrational. Why bother about something that you don't even believe in it?

And worse, what do you actually believe in? Yourself as god?


2. I can understand the doubts that that book may had been written or re-written and even written with mis-interpretations, espacially over contextual issues that athiests and the moronic love to pick and choose, to illustrate their stupidity.. It is your kind's free will and choice.

But do not deny that most of the central tenets in that book had helped us through its relevancy over moral and ethical guidelines, even today, to progress and evolve.

As to the behaviour of the descendants of the Patriach Abraham of today - jews, muslims and christians, - they had not and did not use biblical laws to behave as a society now, but with full human rights as laid out by the UN Charter, and abide by the secular RULE OF LAW majority of nations follow to co-exist in peace, except for the few tyrannical and radical Islamists terrorists state that exists today.


3. Quit grabbing at straws, and just admit the ground you are standing on is untenable. There is no harm in admitting ignorances, but if such continued ignorances continues on, your credibility here on ATS will no longer count for much, not that it amounted to much anyway here, for all are anonymous.

It is your sanity that I am more concern about, as even though anonymous here, you bring back that mentality to the real world. Great if you begin the process for rational critical thinking, but harmful to yourself and others if you continue to find comfort in delusions and stupidity.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by windword

 

1. You cannot pick and choose where religion is concerned. Either you believe, or you don't. No twisting around it or only mis-interpretations will abound.

Yes I can. The Bible is a book filled with allegorical stories, myths, poetry, Hebrew conquests and stories of their gods, mixed with a little history and philosophy. It belongs to all of humanity, not just Christians, and is to interpreted as the reader sees fit.

You admitted to your self belief in other gods as being more true, and that is your right, but you have no right to criticize another's belief in their version of another, which you ignorantly thought is different.

No I didn't. I said if one of them existed, they all existed. If they existed at all, they weren't "The Creator of the Universe."

The scriptures written in that book is sworn and testified as the words of the Almighty and truth. Thus, either you accept it as a whole or you do not. You cannot claim that the ancient hebrews slaughtered an ancient beast race if you do not even believe that book is true. That would only make you look illogical if not irrational. Why bother about something that you don't even believe in it?

What ancient "beast" race? The Caananites, their relatives? The Sumerians? Where is the evidence of these beast? Why were they not a problem in Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia or the Americas? Why did God only care about the middle east?

Nope. Either the Hebrews were exaggerating, to make themselves look tougher than their enemies, or these stories of beasts were myths.

And worse, what do you actually believe in? Yourself as god?

Not that rare of a belief system, so don't act so shocked and appalled.

2. I can understand the doubts that that book may had been written or re-written and even written with mis-interpretations, espacially over contextual issues that athiests and the moronic love to pick and choose, to illustrate their stupidity.. It is your kind's free will and choice.

What do hope to accomplish by insulting and demeaning those that disagree with your belief system?

But do not deny that most of the central tenets in that book had helped us through its relevancy over moral and ethical guidelines, even today, to progress and evolve.

As to the behaviour of the descendants of the Patriach Abraham of today - jews, muslims and christians, - they had not and did not use biblical laws to behave as a society now, but with full human rights as laid out by the UN Charter, and abide by the secular RULE OF LAW majority of nations follow to co-exist in peace, except for the few tyrannical and radical Islamists terrorists state that exists today.

Are you kidding me? What planet do you live on?

The moral tenets of the Old Testament do not apply to western society, as a matter of fact, many of them are illegal and considered immoral in today's society.

The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral

3. Quit grabbing at straws, and just admit the ground you are standing on is untenable. There is no harm in admitting ignorances, but if such continued ignorances continues on, your credibility here on ATS will no longer count for much, not that it amounted to much anyway here, for all are anonymous.

It is your sanity that I am more concern about, as even though anonymous here, you bring back that mentality to the real world. Great if you begin the process for rational critical thinking, but harmful to yourself and others if you continue to find comfort in delusions and stupidity.

If a God claims that murder is a moral thing to do, but everything inside tells us that murder is a wrong thing to do, then that God is wrong!

Your little patronizing rant is not gonna work on me, or on any ATS member who has thought things through, and opted for critical thinking and free will over blind faith allegiance to a god theme that promotes questionable morality.

Phew! I can see the saliva from your rant, but thanks anyway for your post, for it only gives the insignificant nobody me a chance to help not only you, but more critically, the readers to have far more better insights that the atheist and anti-semitism views you possed. You were never my target.

1. Yet again, you do not believe in the bible and by its central tenets which binds jews, christians, muslims and even atheists whom are only our fellow human brothers and sisters yet to know our Creator, so why do you continue to persecute others for their beliefs, of a book that you had read, but VERY obviously - had not understood?

What is your agenda? To divide and conquer? Unfortunately, people of your kind are few, and even fewer anti-semites such as you. You chosed to blame the present day Israelis for their defense of Israel, but you had not sought to mention the deprivations beasts had done to BOTH jews and muslims in the middle east and palestine.

The descendants of the Patriach Abraham are the jews, muslims and christians, by blood or by spirit. To condemn the Bible, you are condemning ALL sacred religious teachings of the Talmud and Koran as well.

It is true that there are discrepancies in those books, and some may wonder at the differences, but let us this modern generation BE AWARE that the authors of the scriptures were not educated as us, nor were they educated scribes/authors by profession, or went to writing schools to learn the best ways to put messages across with clarity, etc.

They were only ordinary men, men whom other humans can relate to, to understand and consider the scriptures they published, often in their own words and experiences. Our Messiah's disciples were all ordinary men - such as fishermen and workers, earning an honest living and the prophet Muhammad was only but a trader and sheep herder, whose words were recorded by equally simple men of his time, and later transcribed by the more educated scribes.

They tried as best and honestly as they could to recount their experiences, and thus left much ambiguities which current day lawyers would have pounced to mis-interpretate them, more so upon 'out of context' basis to fool the masses, such as what you had been and are doing here on ATS, as what ancient scibes may had done to those books.

However, no matter the differences, the central tenets of religions remained the same in all ethnic and religious groups and even atheists. and is the common ground of which majority of us all can stand on to progress and evolve.

Atheists such as you did not gain moral and ethical guidelines out of the blue. You are NOT god, as your implied in your post of being one. Your kind were not born out of your mothers' wombs comprehending civilisation, moral and ethical interactions with others. It was taught to you by your parents and teachers, they from their parents and teachers, and shaped by your good friends and experiences in life on what works and what does not, which if you analysed it honestly, resembles much of what had been taught in the Holy Books.


2. I know I will not change your view, nor will even attempt to do so, for you have free will to be stupid, ignorant and belligerant. As mentioned, you were never my target. Only the readers are, so that they may have a chance to consider carefully such issues, of which people of your kind will never allow such free will, but to forcefed, bully and intimidate them to your kind's way of ignorant if not dangerous prideful kind of thinking.


3. People of your kind are only a rarity fortunately. Change is on the horizon, if you still don't or simply refuse to see it, and would only be bulldozed by the juggarnaut of change. It is time our educated generation finally become one as we truly were meant to be. The stirrings are evident throughout the world, as dividers of this change are being exposed daily.

We all had only been worshipping the same Creator, who loved us all, including you, and through our Patriach Abraham and the central tenets taught by divine teachers sent throughout the course of over civilisation., such will be the common ground for unity with free will as gifted, to worship Him as in the manner we had been taught, and more critically, to progress and evolve our race with less misunderstanding and pain, and fulfil our destiny to the stars.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

What is your agenda?

My agenda? Like yours, it is to empower people to reject evil and embrace love. It is obvious that the Bible is filled with evil commandments from this deity pretending to be the creator of the universe.

Unfortunately, people of your kind are few, and even fewer anti-semites such as you. You chosed to blame the present day Israelis for their defense of Israel, but you had not sought to mention the deprivations beasts had done to BOTH jews and muslims in the middle east and palestine.

People like me are becoming more and more the norm. People are waking up and not blindly accepting mythology and superstition as a daily diet in the navigation of their lives.

It is true that there are discrepancies in those books, and some may wonder at the differences, but let us this modern generation BE AWARE that the authors of the scriptures were not educated as us, nor were they educated scribes/authors by profession, or went to writing schools to learn the best ways to put messages across with clarity, etc.

They were only ordinary men, men whom other humans can relate to, to understand and consider the scriptures they published, often in their own words and experiences. Our Messiah's disciples were all ordinary men - such as fishermen and workers, earning an honest living and the prophet Muhammad was only but a trader and sheep herder, whose words were recorded by equally simple men of his time, and later transcribed by the more educated scribes.

All the more reason to abandon the Bible as "God's word" and take it for what it is, a book of superstitions and myths to justify bad behavior.

Atheists such as you did not gain moral and ethical guidelines out of the blue.

I am not an atheist, I just deny your god.

You are NOT god, as your implied in your post of being one. Your kind were not born out of your mothers' wombs comprehending civilisation, moral and ethical interactions with others. It was taught to you by your parents and teachers, they from their parents and teachers, and shaped by your good friends and experiences in life on what works and what does not, which if you analysed it honestly, resembles much of what had been taught in the Holy Books.

We are all spiritual beings having a human experience. I was not born of my mother's womb, my body was. My spiritual being is part of god, and as so, experiences as god experiences. We are all gods, as we all exist in god.

The "holy books" have little to nothing to do with the way of western life or the way I live my life. As a women, I do not submit to male superiority. I lived with persons who I loved, not who my parents picked for me. If my parents are wrong, I tell them so, and don't blindly follow what they do an say because the Bible says to. I would never murder someone because they believed differently than me. I never raised a hand to stone my rebellious teenager.

And, believe in equality in marriage for homosexuals. I believe in a woman's right to reproductive choice, and am against the death penalty.

I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins or rose from the dead or was born of a virgin. I don't believe in hell. So, you see, the holy books have no authority over me, or over western culture.

We all had only been worshipping the same Creator, who loved us all, including you, and through our Patriach Abraham and the central tenets taught by divine teachers sent throughout the course of over civilisation., such will be the common ground for unity with free will as gifted, to worship Him as in the manner we had been taught, and more critically, to progress and evolve our race with less misunderstanding and pain, and fulfil our destiny to the stars.

BS! If your god has his way, we would all still be living in a ignorant tribal community. There would be no scientific breakthroughs in medicine or space travel, for that matter.

You do know that the world was highly populated in Abraham's time and that Abraham wasn't the only Semitic of his time. Most of humanity isn't Semitic and came from different sources other than Abraham's seed.

reply to post by FlyersFan


hi Fan
Please look at the story from a different angle - and, suppose, it is *true* what the Book writes -

then abraham was ment to be the first of an enormous number of humans..true ?
And, important, móst of those humans would be ' asian ' - where he himself originated from -
...yet, exactly in asia , the populations have always been under the most ..mm... demonic kind of faiths

now... if God told him, he would be that proginator
wouldnt you think Evil would do ánything to keep those [ asian ] masses awáy from that promise ?
so what evil did ?
...it gave the indian masses deities as ' brahma ' and ' sarasvati '
[ a mockery of ' abraham and sarah ]
...so that, by worshipping those evil copies, those masses IMPRISON THEMSELVES

and cut themsélves off from the promise.
Do you understand ? evil is a master in letting people imprison themselves.
The same trick he did with ' islam ' -
and in both cases , evil needs a " link " to the original ; hence he used in hinduism abrahams name, and in islam that ' abraham is their forefather ' . Without that link , no spiritual power can be drained, in order to deceive.

...that abraham was said he had to offer his son....was surely horrible for him..
but remember, in order for him to get the Legal Right to become that progenitor,
abraham had to do LIKE what He would do, later in time: but then He *really* had to let His Son die.